Which is better for society: Capitalism or Communism?

[sarah_anne_628]

We have this problem in the United Kingdom. Traditionally, there was the aristrocratic or upper class, the middle class, and the working class. These days, there is an additional group below the working class referred to as the “underclass.” These people are unemployed and rely solely on state welfare. I personally know many people who have never worked, not because they can’t, but because they won’t. They would rather be a “drain on society” and sit around until they recieve their welfare cheque.

You already have to pay for your own healthcare insurance. If the USA had nationalised healthcare, nobody would have to pay health insurance and would pay a little extra in taxes instead. You may say that you don’t want to pay for others, but it works both ways. There may be a time when you are down on your luck and you need an operation. What if you couldn’t afford the operation or you didn’t have health insurance? You’d probably die of an illness that is easily treatable. However, if the USA had nationalised healthcare, you would be able to have the operation because the rest of society has paid for you. In effect, the society has saved your life. They have donated their own money to help you, and others who wouldn’t be able to afford healthcare.

Nationalised healthcare is a great thing! I can’t understand why any Christian would be opposed to free healthcare for everyone. Why would a Catholic be opposed to free healthcare when it protects the poor and vulnerable? Free nationalised healthcare should be a policy all Christians vote for.

Well, most of the Christians and Catholics I know are Army…and we oppose nationalized healthcare because we know exactly what socialized healthcare is all about. It isn’t because we don’t care…but from where we’re sitting, if government took over healthcare…sure more people would have it…but the quality for ALL would go down and only the rich could afford alternatives (like flying to India which is becoming an increasinly popular option for those who can afford it).

I wish I knew of some alternative solution because I agree that the current situation is not good, but I don’t think more government involvement is the answer either.

 

[Peccavi]

I have a problem wih this Capitalism/Communism senario. Communists are by their own philosophy aetheists and authoritarian…inbetween Capitalism/communism lies Socialism an entirely different beast - there are millions of Catholic Socialists (NOT Communists) in South America and Europe. We used to have Worker Priests too. You can be a good Catholic and a socialist - many of us are. Socialism is neither anti-Christian or authoritarian but it is redistributive. in that it shares an affinity with the loaves and fishes of Christ.

 

[rmcbride77]

We have this problem in the United Kingdom. Traditionally, there was the aristrocratic or upper class, the middle class, and the working class. These days, there is an additional group below the working class referred to as the “underclass.” These people are unemployed and rely solely on state welfare. I personally know many people who have never worked, not because they can’t, but because they won’t. They would rather be a “drain on society” and sit around until they recieve their welfare cheque.

You already have to pay for your own healthcare insurance. If the USA had nationalised healthcare, nobody would have to pay health insurance and would pay a little extra in taxes instead. You may say that you don’t want to pay for others, but it works both ways. There may be a time when you are down on your luck and you need an operation. What if you couldn’t afford the operation or you didn’t have health insurance? You’d probably die of an illness that is easily treatable. However, if the USA had nationalised healthcare, you would be able to have the operation because the rest of society has paid for you. In effect, the society has saved your life. They have donated their own money to help you, and others who wouldn’t be able to afford healthcare.

Nationalised healthcare is a great thing! I can’t understand why any Christian would be opposed to free healthcare for everyone. Why would a Catholic be opposed to free healthcare when it protects the poor and vulnerable? Free nationalised healthcare should be a policy all Christians vote for.

Sad to say that in our country, the once largely Democratic Catholics and middle class have been orphaned by the ultra liberal Pro choice Democratic leadership. They had no choice but to go with the Republicans. The Republicans in turn, to camouflage huge tax breaks for the rich, have brainwashed the middle class into believing that lower taxes and smaller government are the way to go. They just don’t bother telling the rest of the story that lower taxes and smaller government mean less services for everyone.

The Republican platform also has equated government = evil, and big government = bigger evil and has spread that lie throughout the populace. People forget that the Post Office, Police and Fire Departments are not private entities but are actually a government service, showing that government != evil necessarily. OK, the Post Office is a bad example but you get my point.

IMHO the average middle class citizen has no business being Republican if it were not for the Democrats shifting to the far left and adopting immoral policies such as abortion rights and same sex marriage and normalizing homosexuality. We need a third party in this country for the rest of us. A Pro Life Democratic party. Then I think people would realize that a little socialism mixed in is a good thing, not a bad thing.

 

[sarah_anne_628]

It’s also difficult to model US programs after countries like UK or Sweden or other European countries. They are considerably smaller in size and population. Social programs on the large scale will not work. It is unfair to say that the US should be more like Sweden, UK or any other country that is smaller than some US States.

 

[Peccavi]

Strikes me Sarah Anne the disciples had exctly your point to make about the size of the crowd and only five loaves and fishes to feed them with. But Jesus went ahead anyways and it somehow worked out fine.
With Christ size doesn’t matter.

 

[rmcbride77]

That is what so many say about their time. They want to enjoy their free time, they don’t want to spend time working or educating themselves, they don’t want to spend their time looking for opportunities to stand on their own two feet.

It’s funny how the productive class can work hard and earn every nickel they have and even though they are in debt, still find a way to give to charity and they are still called greedy because they can no longer afford to have their money taken away and dare to complain about it. At the same time no one accuses someone of being greedy when they don’t make a full effort to take care of themselves and instead want to take money from others, not by earning it, not at least by asking for it, but by demanding the Government take it from people who eaned it.

BTW Productive class= those who, through their own efforts and contributions to society and the resulting compensation, earn more than what they need to live and do not have to rely on external assistance. This includes those who are retired and living off of income saved from previous work or from retirement income derived from just compensation.

You have an odd talent for missing the point

the point being that this view point you are promoting is quite self-centered and is typical of most conservatives I have come across lately.

Should we not be liberal (generous) and not conservative (stingy) when it comes to caring for the poor?? Your view point to me is a cop-out and one I hear a lot to excuse a platform devoid of social services.

Remember, anatomically, the heart is a little to the left

 

[narrowpath]

Communism has failed everytime it has been tried. Fascism, BTW, is left wing .

Strange, I’ve always seen fascism presented as right wing in school and on diagrams of the political spectrum.

 

[rmcbride77]

Oh, and I misquoted the Beatle song totally, I just found out, its a George Harrison song and its " I , me, mine" and not “my, me, mine” but the meaning stays the same

 

[rmcbride77]

Strange, I’ve always seen fascism presented as right wing in school and on diagrams of the political spectrum.

 

[royal_archer]

So do you think any welfare program is done “at gunpoint?” Gee… you make it seem like that everyone who pays for these programs are working at a 7-11 when a robber shows up at their store. I find your comparison absolutely risible. I do not think people who are paying taxes are in any mortal danger from the government. Do you have any evidence that they are in mortal danger?

Sure force, persuasion, and coercion are involved… but one could provide examples where force, persuasion, and coercion are used ubiquitously.

Of course the prefered method of collection is to seize assetts in a non confrontational way but If you resist the eventual result will be direct force.

 

[royal_archer]

You have an odd talent for missing the point

the point being that this view point you are promoting is quite self-centered and is typical of most conservatives I have come across lately.

Should we not be liberal (generous) and not conservative (stingy) when it comes to caring for the poor?? Your view point to me is a cop-out and one I hear a lot to excuse a platform devoid of social services.

Remember, anatomically, the heart is a little to the left

Funny how making a decision to help out friends and family who I know need help instead of wanting to have a big government beauracracy using brute force to spread other peoples money around is considered stingy.

 

[royal_archer]

Strikes me Sarah Anne the disciples had exctly your point to make about the size of the crowd and only five loaves and fishes to feed them with. But Jesus went ahead anyways and it somehow worked out fine.
With Christ size doesn’t matter.

The government isn’t God, they can not collect a little bit of money and magically make problems go away. Instead the opposite usually happens less is distributed than existed in the first place.

 

[rmcbride77]

The government isn’t God, they can not collect a little bit of money and magically make problems go away. Instead the opposite usually happens less is distributed than existed in the first place.

and neither are corporations… the Right would have us believe the private sector will take care of us when we need it… we can see from the news lately and the golden parachutes of the outgoing CEO’s that the private sector is only interested in the bottom line… not the poor or needy.

 

[rmcbride77]

Funny how making a decision to help out friends and family who I know need help instead of wanting to have a big government beauracracy using brute force to spread other peoples money around is considered stingy.

where is the brute force paranoia coming from? I don’t understand. This is exactly what I was referring to in my earlier post about the Right wing propaganda to use fear mongering when it comes to big government.

 

[rmcbride77]

My apologies to everyone. I get a little wound up about this stuff and say things that are better left unsaid.

If I have offended anyone, especially you, royal archer, I hope you can find it in yourselves to forgive.

 

[royal_archer]

and neither are corporations… the Right would have us believe the private sector will take care of us when we need it… we can see from the news lately and the golden parachutes of the outgoing CEO’s that the private sector is only interested in the bottom line… not the poor or needy.

Corporations are like political parties in that they tend to do what will expand their market. Fortunately with corporations we as consumers have a right to deal with them according to our will. We can consume from businesses that share our views. If consumers spent more time boycotting businesses that were socially irresponsible and more time supporting businesses that were more socially responsible, you would see them being more responsible. Unfortunately in our society we spend to much time trying to force others to support the poor instead of doing what is in our just control.

 

[royal_archer]

My apologies to everyone. I get a little wound up about this stuff and say things that are better left unsaid.

If I have offended anyone, especially you, royal archer, I hope you can find it in yourselves to forgive.

I didn’t find anything you said offensive. But I do appreciate your concern.

 

[rmcbride77]

Corporations are like political parties in that they tend to do what will expand their market. Fortunately with corporations we as consumers have a right to deal with them according to our will. We can consume from businesses that share our views. If consumers spent more time boycotting businesses that were socially irresponsible and more time supporting businesses that were more socially responsible, you would see them being more responsible. Unfortunately in our society we spend to much time trying to force others to support the poor instead of doing what is in our just control.

uh, I am sorry but are you serious? Consumers will do nothing but consume. There is no collective conscience there… Look at the homebuyers that leaped into buying a bigger house than they could afford… causing the foreclosure numbers to climb to record highs and toppling the housing industry. Consumers consume… period. End of statement. A man was trampled to DEATH at a Walmart on Friday for heaven sakes!!!

And don’t talk to me about corporations. Corporations left to their own little deregulated selves have wrecked our economy to the point where taxpayers and the government (which you seem to think you do not need much of) has had to BAIL OUT the corporations…so please go sell your bridge somewhere else.

But if that doesn’t convince you, here is another example: in years past the regulations were lifted on the Northwestern Salmon Fishing Industry or whatever they call themselves. In a very short time, they had practically fished out the entire salmon population and had to be shut down by the feds before they ruined salmon fishing forever… Please, just give up. Your trickle down economy fantasies have been exposed for the lie they have always been. George H.W. Bush called it “voodoo economics” in his race against Reagan for the presidency before he drank the Koolaid, and sold his soul.

Man o man I am wound up again

 

[royal_archer]

uh, I am sorry but are you serious? Consumers will do nothing but consume. There is no collective conscience there… Look at the homebuyers that leaped into buying a bigger house than they could afford… causing the foreclosure numbers to climb to record highs and toppling the housing industry. Consumers consume… period. End of statement. A man was trampled to DEATH at a Walmart on Friday for heaven sakes!!!

You don’t think consumer activism has an effect on the market? Dolphin safe tuna, etc.

Besides, those consumers for the most part are the electorate. if your don’t trust their judgemetn at teh check out counter, how do you trust there judgement at the polls?

And don’t talk to me about corporations. Corporations left to their own little deregulated selves have wrecked our economy to the point where taxpayers and the government (which you seem to think you do not need much of) has had to BAIL OUT the corporations…so please go sell your bridge somewhere else.

Wasn’t the Democratically controlled Congress that decided to bail out a hand full of corporations?

But you are right, left to their own, they will do what is best for the bottom line. That is why we need to let them know that their charitable contributions will impact there bottom line in a good way.

But if that doesn’t convince you, here is another example: in years past the regulations were lifted on the Northwestern Salmon Fishing Industry or whatever they call themselves. In a very short time, they had practically fished out the entire salmon population and had to be shut down by the feds before they ruined salmon fishing forever… Please, just give up. Your trickle down economy fantasies have been exposed for the lie they have always been. George H.W. Bush called it “voodoo economics” in his race against Reagan for the presidency before he drank the Koolaid, and sold his soul.

Man o man I am wound up again

That is funny I have been complaining about Bushes ecconomic right leaning liberal spending spree for the last 8 years. I do not believe in trickle down, trickle up or trickle sideways ecconomics. Ecconomics are like an ecco system where there is a circular flow of money worker to business to supplier to supplier to worker and so on. Any thing that keeps the procuctivity flowing is a good thing and new people in the system producing is a good thing. Whe people siphon resources out of the system or create road blocks in the system it is a bad thing.

 

[rmcbride77]

You don’t think consumer activism has an effect on the market? Dolphin safe tuna, etc.

Besides, those consumers for the most part are the electorate. if your don’t trust their judgemetn at teh check out counter, how do you trust there judgement at the polls?

you are not trying to equate shopping judgement with a person’s voting choices are you?? Think about what you are saying in light of all the reasons I gave about consumers earlier

Wasn’t the Democratically controlled Congress that decided to bail out a hand full of corporations?

I think that was more a Secretary of the Treasury plan and the Congress was put over a barrel on that one… so no, I don’t think its fair to say it was Congress’ decision in that sense.

But you are right, left to their own, they will do what is best for the bottom line. That is why we need to let them know that their charitable contributions will impact there bottom line in a good way.

I don’t see that happening in any meaningful way. Can you please give me an example other than Dolphin safe tuna?

That is funny I have been complaining about Bushes ecconomic right leaning liberal spending spree for the last 8 years. I do not believe in trickle down, trickle up or trickle sideways ecconomics. Ecconomics are like an ecco system where there is a circular flow of money worker to business to supplier to supplier to worker and so on. Any thing that keeps the procuctivity flowing is a good thing and new people in the system producing is a good thing. Whe people siphon resources out of the system or create road blocks in the system it is a bad thing.

Well, thank the Lord, you can’t imagine how much better that makes me feel. I am not being sarcastic here either. Its good to hear that you don’t hold to that theory. Even though we obviously disagree on politics and economics, and gun control at least we can agree that trickle down is a myth