Which is better for society: Capitalism or Communism?

[mpi]

Capitalism is voulentarey for thr borgoisie, but forced for the proletariat. If unfettered capitalism is so benign, then what drove Marx anf Engels to write The Communist Manifesto? Capitalism without governmental controls is an evil system built upon a few gaining wealth through the abuse of the masses. It a form of idolotry where God is replaced by wealth. I am no Marxist, but neither will I accept that Adam Smith’s version of capitalism is in any way an acceptible system.

If the masses are so abused in capitalism, then why do poor people in capitalist countries have a higher standard of living than poor people in non-capitalist countries.

As to why Marx and Engels wrote their manifesto - they wanted power and coercion. That is what communism is.

If capitalism is “evil” without governmental controls - why don’t you name some specific activities related to, lets say, the food industry, that would be considered “evil”. I will say that immoral acts need to be regulated such as prostitution and pornography. But when it comes to BASIC HUMAN NEEDS (i.e. food, clothes, etc.) the more unfettered the capitalism the better.

 

[Kaninchen]

Fine - I made the silly mistake of conflating the 1700s with the 17th century, even though it is really the 18th century. All of my points hold.

Regardless, the industrial revolution was great for humanity. It was the engine for reduced mortality.

springerlink.com/content/pk1081j796162363/

Wasn’t disagreeing. Without the (German) dyestuffs industry later on in the 19th century the whole world of pharmaceuticals . . .

 

[CWBetts]

If the masses are so abused in capitalism, then why do poor people in capitalist countries have a higher standard of living than poor people in non-capitalist countries.

As to why Marx and Engels wrote their manifesto - they wanted power and coercion. That is what communism is.

If capitalism is “evil” without governmental controls - why don’t you name some specific activities related to, lets say, the food industry, that would be considered “evil”. I will say that immoral acts need to be regulated such as prostitution and pornography. But when it comes to BASIC HUMAN NEEDS (i.e. food, clothes, etc.) the more unfettered the capitalism the better.

Evils of unfetered capitalism:

Child Labor
Payment by Scrip
Unsafe Working Conditions
Iron Law of Wages
Dehumanization of Workforce

Regulation of Capitalism has given us:

Mininum wage legislation
Legalization of Labor Unions
OSHA
Clhild Labor Laws
Benefits
Overtime Pay

If you disagree then I have one reccomendation for you: LEARN YOUR HISTORY

 

[mpi]

Evils of unfetered capitalism:

Child Labor
Payment by Scrip
Unsafe Working Conditions
Iron Law of Wages
Dehumanization of Workforce

Regulation of Capitalism has given us:

Mininum wage legislation
Legalization of Labor Unions
OSHA
Clhild Labor Laws
Benefits
Overtime Pay

If you disagree then I have one reccomendation for you: LEARN YOUR HISTORY

• Laws forbidding child labor are immoral.
• Payment by scrip (or credit) is acceptable if it was agreed to by the employee and employer at the initiation of the employment contract. Payment by scrip when cash payement was prenegotiated is NOT CAPITALISM - it is a violation of the rule of law. When companies are insolvent, payment by scrip is better than nothing, which is what employees would get if it were not permitted.
• Unfettered capitalism does not create unsafe working conditions. Lets objectively examine that - there has been a much higher probability of death while working in communist countries than in capitalist coutries. Injured employees (or their families in the case of death) have a mechanism to redress accidents under common law - it is called a lawsuit. This is the capitalist disincentive to employers to take care of their employees. I will grant you this capitalism creates WORKING CONDITIONS, just not unsafe working conditions.

Your last two items:
Iron Law of Wages
Dehumanization of Workforce
These are communist drivel and not worthy of a response. These last two comment disgust me.

 

[CWBetts]

• Laws forbidding child labor are immoral.
• Payment by scrip (or credit) is acceptable if it was agreed to by the employee and employer at the initiation of the employment contract. Payment by scrip when cash payement was prenegotiated is NOT CAPITALISM - it is a violation of the rule of law. When companies are insolvent, payment by scrip is better than nothing, which is what employees would get if it were not permitted.
• Unfettered capitalism does not create unsafe working conditions. Lets objectively examine that - there has been a much higher probability of death while working in communist countries than in capitalist coutries. Injured employees (or their families in the case of death) have a mechanism to redress accidents under common law - it is called a lawsuit. This is the capitalist disincentive to employers to take care of their employees. I will grant you this capitalism creates WORKING CONDITIONS, just not unsafe working conditions.

Your last two items:
Iron Law of Wages
Dehumanization of Workforce
These are communist drivel and not worthy of a response. These last two comment disgust me.

It is obvious the only education you have recieved regarding the Industrial Revolution, the Gilded Age, and the Pregressive Era is what has come from the indoctination of a public school education. We can continue this discussion after this changes. You are inadequitely prepared to continue further.

 

[mpi]

lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman112.html

Excerpt from link above. It really spells out how compatible capitalism and Catholicism are.

2423 The Church’s social teaching proposes principles for reflection; it provides criteria for judgment; it gives guidelines for action: Any system in which social relationships are determined entirely by economic factors is contrary to the nature of the human person and his acts.

2424 A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order. A system that “subordinates the basic rights of individuals and of groups to the collective organization of production” is contrary to human dignity. Every practice that reduces persons to nothing more than a means of profit enslaves man, leads to idolizing money, and contributes to the spread of atheism. “You cannot serve God and mammon.”

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

The economics of the Austrian School, of Carl Menger and Ludwig von Mises, is wholly compatible with this call. The Austrian School does not propose that social relationships be determined only by economic factors. Indeed, it is not clear what that would mean. Instead, the Austrians point out that economics is a matter of human action, and that it is possible to learn truths about economics by studying human actions. Acting human persons are not required to surrender all notions of faith, family, or community.

Similarly, capitalism does not require that profit be the ultimate end of economic activity. Although men and women act for ends, profit is but one possible end of human action, and clearly not the ultimate end (salvation).

Finally, the Austrian view of economics is also compatible with the Church’s declaration that “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” This is manifestly true. Capitalism does not necessitate the idea that all human needs are fulfilled by the market. Instead, capitalism recognizes that the market is very good (indeed, the best system known to man) at fulfilling man’s material needs. As faithful Catholics must recognize, this is not the sum total of human existence.

 

[CWBetts]

Reread CCC 2425. Unfetterd Capitalism is condemned quite clearly. If Capitalism is to exist, it must be regulated. To believe that “lassiaz-faire” capitalists can be trusted to do what is best for thier employees without governmnet regulation is to deny history. It is to deny the fallen nature of man. It is to deny common sense.

 

[mpi]

Reread CCC 2425. Unfetterd Capitalism is condemned quite clearly. If Capitalism is to exist, it must be regulated. To believe that “lassiaz-faire” capitalists can be trusted to do what is best for thier employees without governmnet regulation is to deny history. It is to deny the fallen nature of man. It is to deny common sense.

Reread what I have been saying. I want capitalism regulated when the object of the marketplace exchange is immoral (e.g. prostitution) . When the object is a basic human necessity then it should be unregulated (e.g. food production).

 

[CWBetts]

Reread what I have been saying. I want capitalism regulated when the object of the marketplace exchange is immoral (e.g. prostitution) . When the object is a basic human necessity then it should be unregulated (e.g. food production).

Regulation must be maintained in ALL INDUSTRIES to ensure the working class is given a living wage, access to health care, oppertunity for time off (which is necessary for mental/emotional well-being), and some provision for retirement. That is why all industries need regulation. Lack of regulation contributes to, though is not the only cause, recessions such as we find ourselves in right now.

 

[mpi]

Regulation must be maintained in ALL INDUSTRIES to ensure the working class is given a living wage, access to health care, oppertunity for time off (which is necessary for mental/emotional well-being), and some provision for retirement. That is why all industries need regulation. Lack of regulation contributes to, though is not the only cause, recessions such as we find ourselves in right now.

This recession is a result of REGULATION. Fannie Mae and Freddie mac are GSEs (government sponsored entities) that had a “social justice” objective of getting poor people their own houses to own, instead of rent. This all started with J. Carter’s “Community Redevelopment Act”. Government lit the match to start this recession because they lack the discipline/accountability of the free market.

Nations that have high minimum wages, free health care, and 4 week vacations are nations high in athiesm, low in birth rates, and on the economic decline (at least relative to those nations that reject the social safety net). The poor are the most hurt by this “safety net” High minimum wages are the reason for high unemployment rates in Europe. Remember, a government social safety net is a disincentive for people to act like Catholics - i.e. help each other and follow God’s will.

More evil has been committed in the name of “social justice” in this world over the past 50 years than just about anything else.

 

[CWBetts]

WRONG. Recessions occur because of the boom-bust cycles of a free market, and these cycles are a major contributing factor. Now you have shown you know as little about economics as you do history.

 

[LutheranDK]

Jesus shared out the five loaves and fishes with the crowd who came to hear him preach
Jesus was asked by the rich man what should he do to be saved, Jesus answered take all you have and give it to the poor
and to his disciples he informed that it was easier for a camel to slip through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven…
And in the beatitudes I seem to remember something about the poor inheriting the earth
In Mary’s Magnificat wasn’t it the mighty being pulled down from their seats and the rich being sent empty away…
and reading the Epistle of James…well you can sort that out for yourself…but according to Christ (if you believe the gospels) unshared wealth is not God’s reward but a stumbling block to salvation.

True…your point, in relation to the question of the op, being?

 

[mpi]

WRONG. Recessions occur because of the boom-bust cycles of a free market, and these cycles are a major contributing factor. Now you have shown you know as little about economics as you do history.

So communist nations don’t experience recessions? Recessions are natural, but governments can make slow downs into recessions and they can create the bubble. Government regulation created this housing bubble - which led to the credit crisis.

I guarantee my economics pedigree is highly respected (post-graduate - fully private).

 

[royal_archer]

What is wrong with child labor? I got a job when I was a child and learned a few skills and a good work ethic.

Minimum wage is a popular emotional issue that results in nothing other than people being denied employment. Some misinformed people think that these laws force employers to pay more. Instead what it does is forces employers to hire fewer people, opting instead to require harder work, fewer employees/automation, or outsourcing to countries with out minimum wage.

Recesions are a part of the natural flow of ecconomies. Socialist programs remove accountability from these ebbs and flows. Normally people will prepare for propblems. When they think the government will baill them out, they are less likely to prepare. Governments tend to institute short term reactive policies to delay the impact of a recession. As a result, instead of the millions of little corrections that are inherant with capitalism, you have major impacts like what we have seen as a result of the governments fannie mae fiasco and what is comming up with the Social Security/Medicare fiasco.

Regulation of capitalism is only needed to prevent fraud, theft, deception, breach of contract, etc.

 

[CWBetts]

It was not the regulation that caused the bubble to burst, but the unscrupulous practices of predatory lending, not overregulation. Everyone knows that it was LACK of government oversight that got us into this problem.

 

[CWBetts]

What is wrong with child labor? I got a job when I was a child and learned a few skills and a good work ethic.

Minimum wage is a popular emotional issue that results in nothing other than people being denied employment. Some misinformed people think that these laws force employers to pay more. Instead what it does is forces employers to hire fewer people, opting instead to require harder work, fewer employees/automation, or outsourcing to countries with out minimum wage.

Recesions are a part of the natural flow of ecconomies. Socialist programs remove accountability from these ebbs and flows. Normally people will prepare for propblems. When they think the government will baill them out, they are less likely to prepare. Governments tend to institute short term reactive policies to delay the impact of a recession. As a result, instead of the millions of little corrections that are inherant with capitalism, you have major impacts like what we have seen as a result of the governments fannie mae fiasco and what is comming up with the Social Security/Medicare fiasco.

Regulation of capitalism is only needed to prevent fraud, theft, deception, breach of contract, etc.

There is lots wrong with child labor. During the Gilded Age, children as young as 6 were working in factories. I’m pretty sure your first job as a minor did not include risk of dismemberment.

 

[mpi]

There is lots wrong with child labor. During the Gilded Age, children as young as 6 were working in factories. I’m pretty sure your first job as a minor did not include risk of dismemberment.

I don’t know where you are from but most nations were built on child labor - including the US. Except I call it doing chores, helping on the farm, apprenticeship, etc. Leftards prefer to call it child labor. Again, children could be dismembered there too.

 

[mpi]

It was not the regulation that caused the bubble to burst, but the unscrupulous practices of predatory lending, not overregulation. Everyone knows that it was LACK of government oversight that got us into this problem.

You are a full fledged leftist. What you call predatory lending, I call lack of personal responsibility of borrowers coupled with government coercion forcing these loans to be made to poor people.

Banks were responsible at one point. They refused to give mortgages to people who lived in high risk zip codes. This is what responsible businesses do - avoid inappropriate risks. Then Janet Reno threatened court action, so that the Dems social justice tyranny could be enforced.

 

[royal_archer]

There is lots wrong with child labor. During the Gilded Age, children as young as 6 were working in factories. I’m pretty sure your first job as a minor did not include risk of dismemberment.

I did do factory work although I was not working on the heavy machinery. As far as dismembermentd, If kids had jobs after school insted of going trying to pull crazy stunts on bikes and skate boards they would be much safer.

 

[royal_archer]

It was not the regulation that caused the bubble to burst, but the unscrupulous practices of predatory lending, not overregulation. Everyone knows that it was LACK of government oversight that got us into this problem.

Lack of government oversigt? People took out bigger loans than they could reasonably afford to pay back and with risk beyond what they could endure. Then when they can not fulfil the contrat they agreed to, they call it predatory lending? I could almost grant that there are some people out there who are incompetant as it relates to such basic daily decisions such as a mortgage, but such people need to have caretakers look after them. The rest of us do not need a nanny state making day to day decisions for us.