Which is better for society: Capitalism or Communism?

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If you were talking about me then you have not read many of my posts.

I live on the outskirts of a large city and have lived in two other large cities.

I have spent several years working manual labor in union and non union shops although I am now salaried. But I still put in long hard hours. I have made all of the money I have through wages and salary except the $5-10 per year interest on my savings account.

I left home at the age of 17 and have not taken money from my parrents since I completed school.

I am in the comfortable middle of the middle class.

You seem to have issues with the rich and do not seem to understand that many of us in the working class respect succes and wish no harm on those who have achieved it. You may have heard of the golden rule: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I wouldn’t want someone to takes something from me that I earned and therefore feel the same way about others.
I have nothing against the rich. I have large amounts fo respect for those who started with nothing and became millionaires (Bill Gates comes to mind). I also feel that those have achieved success owe it to thier communities to give back, this is something that has not been done adequitely.
 
I have nothing against the rich. I have large amounts fo respect for those who started with nothing and became millionaires (Bill Gates comes to mind). I also feel that those have achieved success owe it to thier communities to give back, this is something that has not been done adequitely.
So why would you advocate the government seizing what they earned?
 

**Some form of communism. **​

Its not a communism , its more like a socialism.
Of course , the human beings if they get every thing for free , they get lazy. Its in the nature of the human beings.
I was surprised , if the salary of the simple worker not differs too much from the social money , then its just possible for the people - not to work.
I think that may be the workability of the Dutch people has to do with the Protestant working ethics or has to do with the simple understanding that its a shameful to live on social money.
But I think the problem is that not a few emigrants would prefer to get the papers in order to get access for the social money.
Some times they illegally re-rent the apartments which they have got from the government also having at the same time some black jobs . So the people abuse the system for their purpose.
And its understandable that the hospitable West European countries already changing its policy towards the ways of getting the social money and towards the emigration.

I grew up in the communist country.
And for many people who used to live during the communism - the rich people are very bad just because they are rich.
That’s the mentality which still lives in the minds of many people .
Perhaps its because among the rich people of all ranks , there is a chronic disease of ‘‘card-sharpening’’ and ‘‘foul plays’’.
May be its also from the foundation laid by the communism.
Because during the communism it was common to steal and to use the system .
And its from the highest level till the lowest level.
Even the village peasants believed that to steal from the people is sin , but to steal from the collective farm property is not a sin.
The communists leaders who preached the economical and social equality never embodied their ideas into practice.
Their stores , cars , houses , vacations and money spendings were the convincing evidences that they used the luxuries which proletarian people did not even dream about.
The communists theories are very noble.
And the human tragedy is that it was very easy to believe in those theories.
Of course any system which allows rich to get more rich and at the same time poor to get more poor - is a social evil.
Of course , the people are higher than money.
Of course , the people can not be used in order to get some things even if those things are needed for other people.
All these Marxists theories are very noble and ‘’ true ‘’ , right ?
But if we explore the countries where the communism has won.
In practice , for the millions of people the reality of communism was more similar to hell than to that promised paradise .
The Godless system had no soul.
And in Russia it started from the extermination of millions of people , by destroying the Churches , and later by implanting abortions …
By this system - no one was safe.
Any body could be liquidated
The individual had not just a little value but - the individual had no value at all. Because the society could sacrifice him for the sake of the city of salvation.
And that city of salvation had no soul and had no conscience.
The individual was not a religious being but individual was just a function of social forces.
No answers for the ultimate questions.
That’s the reason I think that the communism was not a human system.
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Anyone read about the CRA loans banks were to make? Friend told me they are required to make these loans by the Fed or else. The loans are to people that will almost for certain not pay back.

The discussion was going great on the EU! I can’t wait for the EU to declare their official language is American English! Unofficially it is there come on so we have English signs to travel around EU!😃
 
So are you endorsing the welfare state? Are you rejecting PJPII’s rejection of the welfare state? How does subsidiarity fit into your belief system (please provide specifics wrt gov. policies)?
When did he reject the welfare state?
 
Beacause people are still homeless, often through no fault of their own
How people can say they value life but neglect those in society who need the most help and support are in serious spiritual trouble.

Did Jesus condemn beggars for not owning anything or working?

EDIT: I meant this as a continuation of your point, not a rebuttal.
 
“Which is better for society: Capitalism or Communism?”

Somewhat regulated capitalism. Communism is inhumane, in its war against God, the family and the individual. Communism, in its elusive quest for the so-called ‘good of Man’, is wreckless, cruel, inept, and potentially genocidal. It’s a horror-story disguised as altruism.
 
“Which is better for society: Capitalism or Communism?”

Somewhat regulated capitalism. Communism is inhumane, in its war against God, the family and the individual. Communism, in its elusive quest for the so-called ‘good of Man’, is wreckless, cruel, inept, and potentially genocidal. It’s a horror-story disguised as altruism.
True. And unregulated global neo-liberal capitalism destroys the christian views of contentment, charity and grace. In its elusive quest for happiness through usury and faith in ones own ego is reckless, cruel, inept, and while not being directly genocidal can lead to exploitation of children in underdeveloped countries, while also doing nothing for the poverty in the West. It’s a horror story disguised as freedom.
 
I am totally confused by the loose use of terms like communist, marxist, liberal, conservative, capitalism etc. in this argument. Frequently semantic differences colour the thinking in this debate. Before we can properly discuss we must agree on what it is we are discussing !!
In Acts early Christians appear to have lived in a ‘communistic’ society - but they were clearly not a godless community. Anti-Communism tends to be a reaction to the godless neo-marxist state established in Russia in 1917 and the activities of its international supporters. The two societies are neither poles apart or closely related. We need to tease out the economic structures of early Christian communities and their social message. There are too many pick and mix Christians today who (like Luther refusing to accept the Epistle of St.James) shut-eye the bits in the New Testament they don’t agree with. We must listen to the authentic voice of Christ in the gospels and that of the early Christians in Acts and the Epistles. We must consider what they said and how they acted before we attempt to provide a christian social and economic model for society.
 
Let us throw some Catechism into this mix:
2423 The Church’s social teaching proposes principles for reflection; it provides criteria for judgment; it gives guidelines for action:
Any system in which social relationships are determined entirely by economic factors is contrary to the nature of the human person and his acts.202
2424 A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.203
A system that “subordinates the basic rights of individuals and of groups to the collective organization of production” is contrary to human dignity.204 Every practice that reduces persons to nothing more than a means of profit enslaves man, leads to idolizing money, and contributes to the spread of atheism. "You cannot serve God and mammon."205
2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.206 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."207 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm#I

This is explicit: Socialism and Communism as a whole are wrong. Unregulated Capitalism is wrong.

Perhaps I should mention also the four sins that cry out to heaven:
Willful murder
The sin of Sodom
Oppression of the poor
Defrauding laborers of their wages

(Underlining mine)

In defense of CWbetts, I think he is right to say that there was not enough Government regulation and oversight of the markets. I do not believe he is advocating a socialist state or communism. We cannot as a country legitimately defend the status quo of the current legal and economic system if it results in its own incredible failure as it has done this past september. I do not believe in a welfare state. That includes no welfare for the rich! Those responsible should be getting orange jumpsuits, not golden parachutes.

Just a reminder for the committed Lassiaz Fair capitalists, and Anti-American Socialists/Communists.
The U.S. has 5 out of the 10 standards for defining an economic system as Socialist, according to Marx’s own theory. You cannot correctly claim our country is Capitalist. The term is Mixed Economy.(US.gov)

That being said:
For those that are confused about Communism and Christianity: Communism is not compatible with Christianity.
To repeat:
2423 The Church’s social teaching proposes principles for reflection; it provides criteria for judgment; it gives guidelines for action:

Any system in which social relationships are determined entirely by economic factors is contrary to the nature of the human person and his acts.202

Marx’s philosophy was Dialectical Materialism. His philosophy tells that all life is matter, no spirit, and the human event of history is nothing more than a conflict (dialectic) between competing economic systems (Materialism). Any other factor is secondary, economies is primary.

Therefore:
This directly contradicts the 2423 passage because its “social relationships are determined entirely by economic factors”.
That and Communism is also named as incompatible in the Catechism too.

His subsequent economic systems, Communism and Social, are formulated entirely with this philosophy.

If people are interested in helping the poor, there are much more ancient, and holy ways of helping the poor (i.e. the middle ages and the entire monastic and Church hospital system) without having to turn to modern economic systems pitted sqaurely against God (socialism, communism). Socialism and Communism in their present meaning leave no room for God or any kind of religious system.

🙂 Please dont practice anachronism by placing contempory terms like communism and socialism in the same context as ancient and medieval Christian Societies…🙂
 
In defense of CWbetts, I think he is right to say that there was not enough Government regulation and oversight of the markets. I do not believe he is advocating a socialist state or communism .We cannot as a country legitimately defend the status quo of the current legal and economic system if it results in its own incredible failure as it has done this past september. I do not believe in a welfare state. That includes no welfare for the Rich! Which we are currently doing with our bailouts.
Hi MarcellusW,

You are correct the Church is not against regulation and oversight of the market. However, keep in mind that a big problem with the financial crisis was that the government did get involved. They forced financial companies to lend money to people of lower income. When you take away the ability of banks to make sound lending decisions by telling them who they need to lend money to, it is a recipe for disaster.

Also, as far as bailouts, they are also licit from a Church viewpoint.
Centesimus annus (48)
The State has the further right to intervene when particular monopolies create delays or obstacles to development. In addition to the tasks of harmonizing and guiding development, in exceptional circumstances the State can also exercise a substitute function, when social sectors or business systems are too weak or are just getting under way, and are not equal to the task at hand. Such supplementary interventions, which are justified by urgent reasons touching the common good, must be as brief as possible, so as to avoid removing permanently from society and business systems the functions which are properly theirs, and so as to avoid enlarging excessively the sphere of State intervention to the detriment of both economic and civil freedom.
IOW…loaning money to institutions that are on the verge of collapse is licit for the common good.

So, I am kind of torn on the bailouts. I don’t believe in bailing out businesses who take a risk and then lose, but at the same time it isn’t fair for the government to force businesses to take risks they wouldn’t have otherwise taken. 🤷
 
Hi MarcellusW,

Also, as far as bailouts, they are also licit from a Church viewpoint.
Centesimus annus (48)

IOW…loaning money to institutions that are on the verge of collapse is licit for the common good.

So, I am kind of torn on the bailouts. I don’t believe in bailing out businesses who take a risk and then lose, but at the same time it isn’t fair for the government to force businesses to take risks they wouldn’t have otherwise taken. 🤷
Ok, There is nothing wrong in theory about bail outs, but these ones I believe are definitely wrong. First, they are done without transparency, second, there is no call for real reform or new legislation, third they ask the common good to sacrifice itself for individuals without the individual sharing in that sacrifice for the common good: How can a company justify giving its leadership bonuses in such conditions? How can its leadership even ask for one? How much of those billions went to CEO pay raises and bonuses in the name of the ‘free market.’ Fourth, where are the criminal investigations? Are people really saying there was no market manipulation at all? even though in a day the stock market would drop or rise over a 1000 points? Where is the bailout to honest families who put their savings into the stock market and lost it all under the guidance and reassurances of those very same companies that we just gave billions to? Also those government leaders who assured us that everything was fine (Barney Frank.) And then those same companies come begging to take more money out those people’s pockets through taxes. I think this qualifies as “Defrauding laborers of their wages”. If you give them money you should make some heads roll, figuratively of course, and the heads ain’t rollin one bit…

… how can we even say this bailout actually worked, it’s all speculation still. How can we say this bailout is for the common good when there is no means to measure it and no system within the bailout package itself that can proscribe standards for companies to meet, to be able to say it was successful. The only semblence of measure we have says the common good is getting worse, not better.
 
Beacause people are still homeless, often through no fault of their own
And some people do not have much free time. Since these homeless people have extra free time should we mandate they peform labor for those who have a lack of time?
 
And some people do not have much free time. Since these homeless people have extra free time should we mandate they peform labor for those who have a lack of time?
I have absolutely no idea what yo are getting at here
 
True. And unregulated global neo-liberal capitalism destroys the christian views of contentment, charity and grace. In its elusive quest for happiness through usury and faith in ones own ego is reckless, cruel, inept, and while not being directly genocidal can lead to exploitation of children in underdeveloped countries, while also doing nothing for the poverty in the West. It’s a horror story disguised as freedom.
Capitalism is based on free will and charity can only come from free will. Communism/Socialism are based on destruction of free will and theft of personal property.

Capitalism allows for free offering of charity to the needy and moral causes while communism confiscates resources and gives those resources to a vast list of special interests, many of which are evil.
 
Capitalism is based on free will and charity can only come from free will. Communism/Socialism are based on destruction of free will and theft of personal property.

Capitalism allows for free offering of charity to the needy and moral causes while communism confiscates resources and gives those resources to a vast list of special interests, many of which are evil.
These views can only come from those people who view history through rose colored glasses. Study your history, my friend, and you will see capitalism has a great deal of coercion involved with it.
 
These views can only come from those people who view history through rose colored glasses. Study your history, my friend, and you will see capitalism has a great deal of coercion involved with it.
Again, Catholicism rejects the welfare state. You know it and I know it.
 
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