Which Is Greatest?

[TheOldColonel]

I refer to capacity as the potentia of the human being, the ability or power to do, experience, or understand something. What one’s being cannot contain (or no longer contains) cannot be given or received.

 

[spockrates]

Of the two, wisdom and love, only love can be a verb.

If you mean only love produces action, I agree their are acts of compassion. But doesn’t wisdom produce actions, as well, such as in the case where one acts wisely?

 

[Lee1]

Yes it makes sense but how do you discern Gods will as regards wisdom? I’m not sure that can be done unless He wills it so.
By the way I’m being told by the robot that I’m answering you too much! I’m quite new to this forum so I’m thinking maybe I should comply?

 

[spockrates]

I refer to capacity as the potentia of the human being, the ability or power to do, experience, or understand something. What one’s being cannot contain (or no longer contains) cannot be given or received.

Hmmm. I’m thinking the power to understand describes what wisdom is. But if that’s not what wisdom is, then how would you define it?

 

[spockrates]

Yes it makes sense but how do you discern Gods will as regards wisdom? I’m not sure that can be done unless He wills it so.

I suppose we can start by considering what God has to say? This might help:

Blessed are those who find wisdom, those who gain understanding, for she is more profitable than silver and yields better returns than gold. She is more precious than rubies; nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs 3:13-15)

It was written by Solomon, a person in the Bible who is described as receiving wisdom from God himself. His words fill me with wonder: “Nothing you desire compares with [wisdom].” For I desire much, including the ability to love. But Solomon says there is no thing I desire that is comparable to wisdom.

By the way I’m being told by the robot that I’m answering you too much! I’m quite new to this forum so I’m thinking maybe I should comply?

Too much, or too soon? I believe the forum will think you’re a spammer if you’re too quomick to answer, but it doesn’t seem you are to me.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

The Book of Wisdom might have give some insights. Sirach also has some tidbits about Wisdom every now and than.

 

[fhansen]

Which is the greater virtue - love or wisdom?

I mean, we have this passage:

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

So, we can say love is greater than faith and hope, but what about wisdom?

With either, more can come. Even if we start with fear we can gain understanding/wisdom, the wisdom to seek God. “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. This sincere seeking results in knowledge of God and knowledge of God results in love of God. So wisdom helps lead us to love. In the end love is the goal; it’s our justrice, our perfection, and it encompasses all the others IMO.

 

[Lee1]

Aha! So I’m replying but without using the reply button. Too much not too fast. No not a scammer, I’m not sure I know how to scam anyway.

We are told are we not that God is love? We are not told that God is wisdom though of course His wisdom is without bounds.

I think if I were to be given a choice I’d chose the grace of being able to love unconditionally over the grace of absolute wisdom since love is such a creative force, it leads us to be charitable after all and to salvation if we manage to negotiate the narrow way. And through Gods love we may be saved.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates:

Which is the greater virtue - love or wisdom?

I mean, we have this passage:

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

So, we can say love is greater than faith and hope, but what about wisdom?

With either, more can come. Even if we start with fear we can gain understanding/wisdom, the wisdom to seek God. “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. This sincere seeking results in knowledge of God and knowledge of God results in love of God. So wisdom helps lead us to love. In the end love is the goal; it’s our justrice, our perfection, and it encompasses all the others IMO.

So, are you thinking we seek wisdom for love’s sake, but not love for wisdom’s sake? That is, wisdom should be a means to love’s end?

 

[spockrates]

Aha! So I’m replying but without using the reply button. Too much not too fast. No not a scammer, I’m not sure I know how to scam anyway.

We are told are we not that God is love? We are not told that God is wisdom though of course His wisdom is without bounds.

So, when St. John wrote, “God is love,” did he mean, “God is an emotion I feel,” or did he mean, “God loves perfectly”?

If he meant the latter, then isn’t it also true that God is perfectly wise, since his wisdom has no bounds? If that be true, I think St. John would agree with me or you that God is also wisdom!

I think if I were to be given a choice I’d chose the grace of being able to love unconditionally over the grace of absolute wisdom since love is such a creative force, it leads us to be charitable after all and to salvation if we manage to negotiate the narrow way. And through Gods love we may be saved.

I’d say that without God’s wisdom, we might have no hope of being saved. For wisdom helps us discern that we should put faith in his love, and as the wise Biblical author writes:

“Without faith, it is impossible to please God.” (Hebrews 11:6)

---

But something you said makes me think: God’s wisdom is without limits. Would you say this is also true of his love? Is it also without limits?

 

[TheOldColonel]

One may lay down one’s life for others. But when was it ever said that one died for wisdom alone? Not even that is ascribed to good Socrates. So, surely there is more to love than mere motive to act. Is love not relational, by its very nature, in ways wisdom is not?

 

[Lee1]

Is Gods love without limit? I’d say as far as my tiny speck of being is concerned yes! God has no limitations, the Creator of all things everywhere.

Okay so, why chastisement? Why Gods wrath? Etc. My considered opinion is I don’t know. However, God is wise beyond limit too so I accept, for what I’m worth, anything He does.

 

[Lee1]

I’ve enjoyed our chat spockrates, thank you, I live in a far flung distant corner of the UK and night beckons me to sleep. I’ll call in again tomorrow. I expect we’ll talk again.
Night all and peace be with you.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

spockrates:

Which is the greater virtue - love or wisdom?

I mean, we have this passage:

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

So, we can say love is greater than faith and hope, but what about wisdom?

With either, more can come. Even if we start with fear we can gain understanding/wisdom, the wisdom to seek God. “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. This sincere seeking results in knowledge of God and knowledge of God results in love of God. So wisdom helps lead us to love. In the end love is the goal; it’s our justrice, our perfection, and it encompasses all the others IMO.

So, are you thinking we seek wisdom for love’s sake, but not love for wisdom’s sake? That is, wisdom should be a means to love’s end?

I think wisdom tends towards discovering love, or our need for it at any rate. We don’t always know what we’re looking for in our search for truth, but truth and love are intrinsically related. But if knowledge, alone, is behind our desire for wisdom we might easily end up with pride being our chief “quality”, (“knowledge puffs up”, 1 Cor 8:1) and, I’d think, little wisdom would actually result. Either way love is the supreme goal, the epicenter of our justice/righteousness/holiness/perfection.

 

[spockrates]

Good talking with you, too, mate! Let’s do it again, sometime.

 

[spockrates]

One may lay down one’s life for others. But when was it ever said that one died for wisdom alone? Not even that is ascribed to good Socrates. So, surely there is more to love than mere motive to act. Is love not relational, by its very nature, in ways wisdom is not?

When Socrates was asked by his disciples why he refused an offer to escape death, he reasoned with them that it was unwise to resist the democratic government they believed in. Though his disciples pleaded with him to save his life, he chose death because it was the wise thing to do.

That being said, he loved his God, who he taught was the source of all wisdom, and wiser than all the pantheon of gods, including Zeus, who was called the god of wisdom. His hope was to see the only wise God, so I suppose you might be partially correct about Socrates. He did die for love, but he also died for wisdom.

 

[RandomAlias]

Paul wrote also:

1 Corinthians 1:18-25

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”

Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

and

1 Corinthians 1:27-29

Rather, God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, and God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong, and God chose the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something, so that no human being might boast before God.

and

1 Corinthians 3:18-20

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you considers himself wise in this age, let him become a fool so as to become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the eyes of God, for it is written:

“He catches the wise in their own ruses,”

and again:

“The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.”

So it seems that Paul did not think much of wisdom in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

amen. … Here Oh Israel, the Lord our God is one, you shall Love the Lord you God with all your heart, soul and strength
and you shall love your neighbour as yourself

 

[spockrates]

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

(1 Corinthians 13:9-12)

Do you think that knowing God fully as he knows us is wisdom? If so, then seeing him face to face for the first time is my goal. Isn’t it your goal, too?

 

[spockrates]

I agree St. Paul put down sinful wisdom, but he also recommended a different kind of wisdom:

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

(1 Corinthians 2:13-16)

It’s this good kind of wisdom - what he calls the mind of Christ - which I have in mind.