Which is more serious - killing the unborn or born?

[WindyHair]

I see your confusion does not end. In your profile, you claim to be an agnostic. Yet, in your hatred of God, you make no hesitation to blame him for the wrongs of humans. If you do not know if he exists (i.e., an agnostic), how do you profess to blame him, if he does not exist. That is contradictory in itself. You will remain in my prayers.
Deacon Ed B

and you must see clearly eh?
when you realize that human are not able to see perfectly clearly,
that we’re ALL confused, you will understand where agnostics
are coming from. even priests fall.

your way of thinking about god, about hating him and blaming
him, and also about praising him, is a flaw. to me, god just is.
when a tsunami kills thousands of innocents, do i blame
the water? the wind? no. nor do i praise it.

peace

 

[WindyHair]

The Lord giveth. The Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

WindyHair,

You’ve given us a good running dialogue for the money. Let me say this in parting. I’ve often wondered how Pro-Abortion people think. Yes, there are those who just want to do what they want to do, regardless of morals. But there are those that think that it is the “responsible” thing to do, the “lesser of two evils” in an unwanted pregnancy. Most do not think that third trimester (and beyond) abortions are OK. But that first trimester is just maybe morally OK, given the “lesser of two evils” argument. If you do not believe in God, you might argue that the feti have no real pain centers, no sentient self-aware mental faculties. The death is maybe not-so painful. That maybe the fetus is just a “blob of tissue” as I have heard it referred to.

As a Christian who believes that Jesus Christ was the man-god who was born of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we must remember that He went through all three trimesters, including the “blob of tissue” stage. He accepted mankind as his brothers and sisters. We’re family. What we do unto his brothers and sisters at this stage, is what we do unto Him. This is essentially the Christian perspective that would seem irrational to a secular humanist that does not allow God into the equation when making their sense of moral ethics.

God Bless You in your search for truth.

let me ask you this. what if a pregnant girl came to you
and said God told her to have an abortion? she said
she had a dream, and in that dream God came to her
and said she should have an abortion, to prove her
faith in God.

?

 

[WindyHair]

A man shoots a gun, he has to take responsibility. A man & woman engage in the reproductive act, the resulting baby is a “responsibility”, not a “choice”.

that’s your OPINION.

in reality, it is a choice. everyday that you wake up you
have a choice. you can go to work or blow your brains out.
you can abort your child or have it. the choice is always there,
whether America writes a million laws against it or not. people
will ALWAYS have the choice of aborting.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

your way of thinking about god, about hating him and blaming him, and also about praising him, is a flaw. to me, god just is.when a tsunami kills thousands of innocents, do i blame the water? the wind? no. nor do i praise it.

peace

Your confusion is still evident. An agnostic does not know if God exists. Your statement reflects a belief in God. You have made at least one step towards the truth. I will continue praying for you.

You are confused on another point. I do not blame God for evil, I blame sinful man. Evil was introduced into the world through sin. Not because of God. If you place blame, place it where it belongs. God gets blamed for many things, when his only fault (if you can call it that) is loving us. Blaming him for evil or tragedy is like blaming a mother or father for the sins or evil deeds of the child when they have done all that they can for him. I am sure you would agree that this is not the proper thing to do.

We have free will. God does not force himself upon us. But he is always there for us if we turn to him. Try it, you will like it.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[hawkeye]

Which is more serious? Killing the unborn or born?

Both of them are serious, one is not more than the other, someone decided to stop another human beings heart from beating.

 

[WindyHair]

Your confusion is still evident. An agnostic does not know if God exists. Your statement reflects a belief in God. You have made at least one step towards the truth. I will continue praying for you.

You are confused on another point. I do not blame God for evil, I blame sinful man. Evil was introduced into the world through sin. Not because of God. If you place blame, place it where it belongs. God gets blamed for many things, when his only fault (if you can call it that) is loving us. Blaming him for evil or tragedy is like blaming a mother or father for the sins or evil deeds of the child when they have done all that they can for him. I am sure you would agree that this is not the proper thing to do.

We have free will. God does not force himself upon us. But he is always there for us if we turn to him. Try it, you will like it.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

not all agnostics believe the same (neither do chrisitians).
the difference between agnostics and christians is that i have
hope that there is a god, but i will not tell you that there is one
for sure, without a doubt. to say that i know there is a god,
is not truth.

besides, again, you assume that we’re even believing in the
same “god”. maybe we are, but your interpretation of him
is not mine. if you do not blame him for evil, do not praise
him for good either. praise humanity, for both exists in us.

go ahead and pray for me. although i think there are more
important things to pray for.

 

[jheii]

I don’t really think the question of abortion should be geared toward whether or not abortion should be legal/illegal. I think you’d have a very difficult time finding a Catholic who believes in the real presence but who also denies that abortion is a serious sin. Why, then, is there so much disagreement amongst Catholics on this issue? It comes down to a disagreement on what is the best course of action to lower the actual number of abortions. Some people feel that criminalization is the best route, some people feel that it is not. I don’t see why both sides can’t use a little charity and acknowledge that the two camps want the same thing: a society that follows the directives of Christ and fosters a profound respect for life.

 

[WindyHair]

I don’t really think the question of abortion should be geared toward whether or not abortion should be legal/illegal. I think you’d have a very difficult time finding a Catholic who believes in the real presence but who also denies that abortion is a serious sin. Why, then, is there so much disagreement amongst Catholics on this issue? It comes down to a disagreement on what is the best course of action to lower the actual number of abortions. Some people feel that criminalization is the best route, some people feel that it is not. I don’t see why both sides can’t use a little charity and acknowledge that the two camps want the same thing: a society that follows the directives of Christ and fosters a profound respect for life.

finally, one of the more reasonable responses.
pro-life people need to understand that pro-choice
people don’t believe in killing babies either. we’re
anti-abortion also. many simpleton pro-lifers have
been brainwashed to believe that pro-choicers
want to kill innocent babies. unfortunately this has
manifested itself into bombing clinics and murdering
innocents. it’s not a matter of ethics. we all believe
it’s wrong to kill babies. is it wrong to kill embryos?
that’s where it gets a little gray. is it wrong to take
eggs out of one woman and put it another?
is stem cell research wrong? is it wrong to create
life from a pitri dish? is it wrong to cut thousands
of nerve endings from a baby’s penis, WITHOUT
any anesthetics? right/wrong suddenly is not
so simple.

if people are going to start hollaring that all abortion,
embryo or not is wrong, then i ask, if abortion is so wrong
why is your God the biggest abortioner?

many women nowadays go through 1-3 miscarriages
before finally having a baby.

 

[wynnejj]

I don’t really think the question of abortion should be geared toward whether or not abortion should be legal/illegal. I think you’d have a very difficult time finding a Catholic who believes in the real presence but who also denies that abortion is a serious sin. Why, then, is there so much disagreement amongst Catholics on this issue? It comes down to a disagreement on what is the best course of action to lower the actual number of abortions. Some people feel that criminalization is the best route, some people feel that it is not. I don’t see why both sides can’t use a little charity and acknowledge that the two camps want the same thing: a society that follows the directives of Christ and fosters a profound respect for life.

The courts have re-defined existing legislation and we now have 50 million abortions over 35 years. Abortion is now being used as the new birth control. I think legislation is imperative to stop the blood bath. The argument has entered the mindset of parishioners. One regular Sunday Mass person when discussing abortion clinics said “At least it gives jobs.”. I hear nonsense logic like this all the time from Catholics. I can understand the multitude of other issues affecting a persons’ judgement on the efficacy of choosing one candidate or the other when voting, but I cannot understand your logic that the clear path to reducing abortions is not necessarily legislation.

 

[scylla]

You cannot compare miscarriage to abortion as God killing babies to humans killing babies.

Our bodies do not function perfectly so the result is miscarriages, in the same way an aneurysm can kill someone. It is not God killing that person with the aneurysm, it is a result of our fallen nature. Our bodies though functioning in a pretty much miraculous way, do not always function perfectly.

Which is more serious, killing a strong man who can work for about another 30 years or a older woman who has about 5 years left of hard work in her?
This is the same as your original question. Both are human beings. Humanity is not based upon, utility.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[wynnejj]

As I study the issue of abortion, I always like to get a historical perspective of how Christians in general might have viewed the subject years ago.

I found the following book at Project Gutenberg (public domain books).

SEARCHLIGHTS ON HEALTH: THE SCIENCE OF EUGENICS (Published 1920)
A Guide to Purity and Physical Manhood, Advice to Maiden, Wife and Mother, Love, Courtship, and Marriage
By Prof. B.G. Jefferis, M.D., PH.D. and J.L. Nicols, A.M.

Interestingly enough, it is firmly against contraception and abortion, and for abstinence, chastity and limiting family sizes through natural family planning.

You should see their viewpoint in the section called “THE MURDER OF THE INNOCENTS”.
gutenberg.org/files/13444/13444-h/13444-h.htm#page256

For example, it states unequivocally:
The National Sin. - The prevention of offspring is preeminently the sin of America. It is fast becoming the national sin of America, and if it is not checked, it will sooner or later be an irremediable calamity. The sin has its roots in a low and perverted idea of marriage, and is fostered by false standards of modesty.

 

[jmcrae]

so what you’re saying is that all those people that
died in 9-11 attack was god’s will. he chooses right?

The attack was not God’s will, but yes, those who died were in God’s hands at the time. He took them to where ever they were supposed to go afterwards, and nobody went anywhere they should not have gone, or would not have gone, if they had lived longer.

After all, if we are going to thank God for the lives that were spared (those who were late for work that day, or missing work for some reason, who were spared, and those who miraculously escaped from seemingly impossible situations in the disaster) then we must also trust God with the souls of those He did take, that day.

guess what? doctor’s sometimes have to choose who
lives and who dies. courts sometimes have to choose who
lives and who dies.

Actually, ultimately, it is God who is using them to make the choice - unless they are “playing god” in some way - in which case, the consequences will be theirs to face on the Judgment Day.

with your reasoning, next time you or your loved one is sick,
just stay home and pray to god, really hard. he will decide
whether you live or die.

God gave us doctors, too.

 

[WindyHair]

You cannot compare miscarriage to abortion as God killing babies to humans killing babies.

Our bodies do not function perfectly so the result is miscarriages, in the same way an aneurysm can kill someone. It is not God killing that person with the aneurysm, it is a result of our fallen nature. Our bodies though functioning in a pretty much miraculous way, do not always function perfectly.

Which is more serious, killing a strong man who can work for about another 30 years or a older woman who has about 5 years left of hard work in her?
This is the same as your original question. Both are human beings. Humanity is not based upon, utility.

God Bless
Scylla

so what you’re saying then is that miscarriages or not god’s will?
maybe people who smoke or drink are abortionists too and
should go to jail. if they would have taken care of their body
better, their child may have survived.

if we are all fallen, who’s to say who is right or who is wrong?
how can one group sit on their high horse and spout what is right
or what is wrong when they themselves are no better than
anyone else? i mean c’mon, they’re not even the “chosen people”.

don’t you realize that as you sit on your high horse, claiming
your righteous morals, other groups (eg. muslims), in their minds, are sitting
on even higher horses laughing at you, claiming their
morals are so much holier than thou.

 

[WindyHair]

The attack was not God’s will, but yes, those who died were in God’s hands at the time. He took them to where ever they were supposed to go afterwards, and nobody went anywhere they should not have gone, or would not have gone, if they had lived longer.

if not god’s will are you saying some things are beyond god’s will?

After all, if we are going to thank God for the lives that were spared (those who were late for work that day, or missing work for some reason, who were spared, and those who miraculously escaped from seemingly impossible situations in the disaster) then we must also trust God with the souls of those He did take, that day.

Actually, ultimately, it is God who is using them to make the choice - unless they are “playing god” in some way - in which case, the consequences will be theirs to face on the Judgment Day.

you sound just like the muslim extremist who perpetrated 911.

God gave us doctors, too.

and murderers

 

[wynnejj]

let me ask you this. what if a pregnant girl came to you
and said God told her to have an abortion? she said
she had a dream, and in that dream God came to her
and said she should have an abortion, to prove her
faith in God.

?

I’d tell her the truth. Dreams are often irrational. Like your question…

 

[jmcrae]

if not god’s will are you saying some things are beyond god’s will?

Everything that God has commanded us not to do is against God’s will. God has given us the freedom to choose, His way, or our way.

At the end of our lives, either we will say to Him, “Your will be done,” or else He will say to us, “Your will be done.” If we have chosen His way, then we will go to Heaven, but if we have chosen our own way, then we will go to Hell - Hell can be likened to eternal selfishness.

you sound just like the muslim extremist who perpetrated 911.

The Muslims have the Ten Commandments, too. They knew they were doing wrong.
I said:

God gave us doctors, too.

and murderers

The difference is that God has made no law against healing others (and in fact, He recommends it), but the Ten Commandments forbid murder.

 

[WindyHair]

I’d tell her the truth. Dreams are often irrational. Like your question…

u think it’s never happened?

sounds like you’re saying god communication to people is irrational? like a burning bush? it’s only rational when it
fits your idea of right and wrong right?

 

[WindyHair]

Everything that God has commanded us not to do is against God’s will. God has given us the freedom to choose, His way, or our way.

At the end of our lives, either we will say to Him, “Your will be done,” or else He will say to us, “Your will be done.” If we have chosen His way, then we will go to Heaven, but if we have chosen our own way, then we will go to Hell - Hell can be likened to eternal selfishness.

The Muslims have the Ten Commandments, too. They knew they were doing wrong.

The difference is that God has made no law against healing others (and in fact, He recommends it), but the Ten Commandments forbid murder.

murder depends on your definition and viewpoint.
one man’s muderer is another man’s freedom fighter right?

 

[mercygate]

u think it’s never happened?

sounds like you’re saying god communication to people is irrational? like a burning bush? it’s only rational when it
fits your idea of right and wrong right?

Have you ever had a course in logic?

 

[wynnejj]

that’s your OPINION.

in reality, it is a choice. everyday that you wake up you
have a choice. you can go to work or blow your brains out.
you can abort your child or have it. the choice is always there,
whether America writes a million laws against it or not. people
will ALWAYS have the choice of aborting.

Many murderers facing life imprisonment agree with you wholeheartedly. There is choice and there are consequences.