Which is older Genesis, Epic of Gilgamesh and Sumerians?

[Vladd]

Many around here, including myself think the earth (and the universe) are about 6000 years old. Needless to say, I am skeptical of the 10000 year old dating on the tablets.

Pax Christi

Look it up it’s in the British museum , they say anywhere from 6 to 20 k years old so most just say 10 k. Hmm how old are dinasour bones? Most scientist say the earth is millions of years old, never heard of only 6 k. I will put some effort into researching the 6 k idea though and I thank you for your reply, however even if the tablets were only 6 k old they would still be older than the bibles story of the beginning and the flood and that’s what this post is over. I still am going to research the 6000 year old idea, I love knowledge! Also they have found minerals in Australia that are 4.6 billion years old.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I’m fully aware that many people date things much older than 6000 years. I simply think they are incorrect.

It’s great if you are willing to look into the topic with an open mind. May God bless you on the intellectual and spiritual journey.

Pax.

Edit-

Yes, I said I think the world is about 6000 years old. The tablets wouldn’t be that old, and would have been produced sometime after the flood.

Pax again.

 

[Vladd]

Ok I know where you get the 6k years old from now. Hey the bible could be right who am I to say I just go by what scientist say , for now atleast. Thanks for your replies and patience with me and realizing I’m only seeking answers for one last shot at Christianity , to see if I’m wrong. It’s just been on my mind lately And sort of worries me if you know what I mean.

 

[Vladd]

I’m fully aware that many people date things much older than 6000 years. I simply think they are incorrect.

It’s great if you are willing to look into the topic with an open mind. May God bless you on the intellectual and spiritual journey.

Pax.

Thank you for being patient and answering my questions can I ask why you would not believe scientist with technology that cost millions of dollars?

 

[Dan_Daly]

Thank you for being patient and answering my questions can I ask why you would not believe scientist with technology that cost millions of dollars?

Why would you believe them simply because their technology costs so much? People make expensive mistakes all the time.

In the past “science” said said the earth was thousands of years old. So obviously we both think “science” can be wrong. That said, science is not a monolithic entity. There are plenty of modern scientists who believe the earth is only thousands of years old.

I believe God made the earth in 6 24-hour days, which is a perfectly orthodox Catholic position. Dating back to Adam based upon the chronologies in the Bible gives you an age of Creation of about 6000 years.

There are problems with secular models that seem difficult to reconcile with what I know to be true based upon my Catholic faith. For example- death entered the world after the Fall of Adam. Now it would be possible, that life existed for millions or billions of years with nothing dying, I do not put that possiblity beyond God, but it doesn’t seem to make sense. Also, the 6 days of Creation followed by the 1 day of rest are the foundation of the commandmant to keep holy the Lord’s day.

I’d really suggest taking a look at the book The Doctrines of Genesis 1-11 by Father Victor Warkulwiz. The author is a Catholic priest and a scientist, and he analyzes several issues both from a theological and natural science perspective. You can get it on amazon.

Pax Christi

 

[Vladd]

Why would you believe them simply because their technology costs so much? People make expensive mistakes all the time.

In the past “science” said said the earth was thousands of years old. So obviously we both think “science” can be wrong. That said, science is not a monolithic entity. There are plenty of modern scientists who believe the earth is only thousands of years old.

I believe God made the earth in 6 24-hour days, which is a perfectly orthodox Catholic position. Dating back to Adam based upon the chronologies in the Bible gives you an age of Creation of about 6000 years.

There are problems with secular models that seem difficult to reconcile with what I know to be true based upon my Catholic faith. For example- death entered the world after the Fall of Adam. Now it would be possible, that life existed for millions or billions of years with nothing dying, I do not put that possiblity beyond God, but it doesn’t seem to make sense. Also, the 6 days of Creation followed by the 1 day of rest are the foundation of the commandmant to keep holy the Lord’s day.

I’d really suggest taking a look at the book The Doctrines of Genesis 1-11 by Father Victor Warkulwiz. The author is a Catholic priest and a scientist, and he analyzes several issues both from a theological and natural science perspective. You can get it on amazon.

Pax Christi

That sounds like a book I need to read, thanks for your honesty and answers and I want to add that you have a very good point and I’m going to read this book, thanks .

 

[TarkanAttila]

Kids? Well archeologist say different , 4000 years ago were the Hindus the archeologist etc say the tablets are 10,000 years old and the tablets are in the museum. Wikipedia is not a reliable source if info, any goober can get on there and state things . One can get on there and find many contradictions and arguments on one single subject so to my knowledge I would say something like that is not creditable. However it’s a good read I guess. Thank you for the effort though , I’m still not convinced but for some reason I was lead here so I’m open to all possibilities .

Except that it meshes with my history lessons in high school. And we used GOOD textbooks.

Here is the citation for the statistic I quoted:

Stephanie Dalley, ed. Myths from Mesopotamia: Creation, the Flood, Gilgamesh, and Others. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0199538362.

Punch the link if you wanna see it, maybe even buy it!

Can you cite your claims that people think the tablets are “10,000” years old?

Anthropologists only traced the beginning of the biologically modern human to 20,000 to 10,000 years, and civilization to ~4000 years beginning in Mesopotamia, the Indus River Valley, and the Yangtze River in China. If my textbooks are correct.

 

[Vladd]

Except that it meshes with my history lessons in high school. And we used GOOD textbooks.

Here is the citation for the statistic I quoted:

Stephanie Dalley, ed. Myths from Mesopotamia: Creation, the Flood, Gilgamesh, and Others. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0199538362.

Punch the link if you wanna see it, maybe even buy it!

Can you cite your claims that people think the tablets are “10,000” years old?

Anthropologists only traced the beginning of the biologically modern human to 20,000 to 10,000 years, and civilization to ~4000 years beginning in Mesopotamia, the Indus River Valley, and the Yangtze River in China. If my textbooks are correct.

So you obviously agree that the earth is over 6000 years old along with me , look up Sumerian civilization , it was before mesopotamia . Thanks for replying, as far as giving you a direct site I will have to dig back in my studies . Please understand this is something I have been puting over 7 years research in and will have to go through files etc to find the direct sites. However you can look up the Sumerian tablets with the epic story and gilgamesh story and it will take you to the British museum to see for yourself, or google Sumerian civilization . Thanks for you patience.

 

[Vladd]

Also thank you for the info, I’m going to read what you put forth and think On it for a while, thanks for replying and being kind to me.

 

[garysibio]

Ok does this seem correct…i have constantly heard people saying that the book of Genesis is a copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh and Sumerian myths. Even in my history textbook for school it says that the seven days of creation from the book of Genesis came from Sumerian myths. When i read the sumerian creation accounts( or a summary of them) from the seven stone tablets, it seems like there is not to much similarity between them. The flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh is similar to the flood in Genesis in more ways. My question is which one came first? There seems to have obviously been a massive flood if there are many ancient traditions with floods in them. But is it true that the stories in Genesis were passed down orally for many many years, and some people twisted these stories and in turn formed creation stories such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, and Sumerian beliefs about creation? And then Moses came and corrected the people who had changed the stories and the true creation account was written down and is inspired? Please let me know if this sounds right or if u disagree or have anything to add thanks!

I did a paper on this in college. To summarize, Gilgamesh was committed to writing earlier than Genesis but the Genesis account is older. Since this goes against what most scholars believe, let me explain my logic:

1. In folklore, stories get more complicated over time, not less. Technology advances, numbers get bigger, events get more and more fantastic.
2. In the biblical account Noah essentially had a floating box. He couldn’t steer it. In Gilgamesh the boat was much more advanced technologically. He could make it go where he wanted.
3. In the Bible people lived to be 800-900 years old. In the Epic of Gilgamesh they lived to be 36,000 years old. Extremely exaggerated.

I wrote the paper almost 40 years ago and am relying on my memory. There was more to it that just this but you see what I’m getting at. In addition, you can take a look at flood stories from around the world. Compare them to the biblical account and the Sumerian. I think you’ll agree that the biblical account seems to be the original.

 

[Vladd]

I did a paper on this in college. To summarize, Gilgamesh was committed to writing earlier than Genesis but the Genesis account is older. Since this goes against what most scholars believe, let me explain my logic:

1. In folklore, stories get more complicated over time, not less. Technology advances, numbers get bigger, events get more and more fantastic.
2. In the biblical account Noah essentially had a floating box. He couldn’t steer it. In Gilgamesh the boat was much more advanced technologically. He could make it go where he wanted.
3. In the Bible people lived to be 800-900 years old. In the Epic of Gilgamesh they lived to be 36,000 years old. Extremely exaggerated.

I wrote the paper almost 40 years ago and am relying on my memory. There was more to it that just this but you see what I’m getting at. In addition, you can take a look at flood stories from around the world. Compare them to the biblical account and the Sumerian. I think you’ll agree that the biblical account seems to be the original.

The Hebrews got their info for genesis while in captivity from Pagans , you even say the writings are older and if I were Hebrew and wanted to hide the fact of other gods I would deffinetly change how the boat was navigated because by the ship having a steering device means that had some advanced help and would raise questions. In my eyes if the writing is older ,then it was first plain and simple!! however you have a great debate here and I guess it comes down to fitting the pieces to the puzzle which I haven’t done obviously . This will be on my mind for sure, thanks for replying and being kind as always .

 

[garysibio]

Why?

One doesn’t have to look far to see cases where cultures have declined technologically- Egypt, Rome,…

Especially in the case of a worldwide flood, followed by a confusion of languages, it would be surprising if for some time earlier people weren’t more technologically advanced.

Pax

If the story of Noah was copied from a Sumerian folktale, it would not be historical. My comment was about folktales, not actual civilizations. While an actual civilization can move backwards technologically, folk tales, as a rule, do not. Paul Bunyan will never end up mowing lawns for a living.

Personally I believe in the historical accuracy of the early chapters of Genesis. I believe the Sumerian version was taken from it and exaggerated. Other versions of the flood story are not as exaggerated as the Sumerian version.

 

[Gorgias]

This is relevant to the OP’s question. From the Pontifical Biblical Commission’s findings on Genesis:

Pope Saint Pius X made this particular finding and others part of the ordinary magesterium and binding on all Catholics with Praestantia Scripturae.

Pax

From Praestantia Scripturae:

Wherefore we find it necessary to declare and to expressly prescribe, and by this our act we do declare and decree that all are bound in conscience to submit to the decisions of the Biblical Commission relating to doctrine

Can you point to the doctrine of the Catholic Church that’s expressed in the quote you provided? That is, if this is something we’re bound to hold (i.e., that the Scriptural accounts of the first few chapters of Genesis are historically accurate), then there must be a doctrinal statement that the PBC is upholding. Where’s that statement?

Thanks!

 

[Gorgias]

In the biblical account Noah essentially had a floating box. He couldn’t steer it. In Gilgamesh the boat was much more advanced technologically. He could make it go where he wanted.

Soooo… a cube was a more advanced vessel than an ark of more reasonable proportions?

I wrote the paper almost 40 years ago and am relying on my memory.

I might gently suggest that scholarship has progressed in the past 40 years, drawing upon new manuscript evidence and archeological findings. Just sayin’…

 

[bmullins]

The Hebrews got their info for genesis while in captivity from Pagans , you even say the writings are older and if I were Hebrew and wanted to hide the fact of other gods I would deffinetly change how the boat was navigated because by the ship having a steering device means that had some advanced help and would raise questions. In my eyes if the writing is older ,then it was first plain and simple!! however you have a great debate here and I guess it comes down to fitting the pieces to the puzzle which I haven’t done obviously . This will be on my mind for sure, thanks for replying and being kind as always .

Have you stopped to think for a minute that the reason there are multiple accounts might be that it was a global event that left just one family? How do we explain the other flood accounts? The ones in Cuba? Venezuela? Canada? They didn’t have to steal anything if it was a common story because they all had common ancestors.

 

[garysibio]

Soooo… a cube was a more advanced vessel than an ark of more reasonable proportions?

Uh, did you actually read what I wrote? I pointed out that the ship in the Sumerian version was maneuverable. That’s where the advanced technology comes in. The ark just floated.

I might gently suggest that scholarship has progressed in the past 40 years, drawing upon new manuscript evidence and archeological findings. Just sayin’…

Forty years ago the general consensus was that the Sumerian version came first. That hasn’t changed but it doesn’t mean it’s correct, either. What evidence do you know of in the past 40 years that changes anything I said?

 

[garysibio]

The Hebrews got their info for genesis while in captivity from Pagans , you even say the writings are older and if I were Hebrew and wanted to hide the fact of other gods I would deffinetly change how the boat was navigated because by the ship having a steering device means that had some advanced help and would raise questions. In my eyes if the writing is older ,then it was first plain and simple!! however you have a great debate here and I guess it comes down to fitting the pieces to the puzzle which I haven’t done obviously . This will be on my mind for sure, thanks for replying and being kind as always .

Are there any Catholics on this forum that still believe that the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Genesis came from God, not pagans.

 

[bmullins]

Are there any Catholics on this forum that still believe that the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Genesis came from God, not pagans.

There are many Catholics left on the forum who do believe just that. Vladd, however, is not Catholic. He is a pagan with curiosity towards Catholicism.

 

[Vladd]

Uh, did you actually read what I wrote? I pointed out that the ship in the Sumerian version was maneuverable. That’s where the advanced technology comes in. The ark just floated.

Forty years ago the general consensus was that the Sumerian version came first. That hasn’t changed but it doesn’t mean it’s correct, either. What evidence do you know of in the past 40 years that changes anything I said?

The tablets, they did test to check age and the tablets are anywhere from 6k to 20k years old, that’s the thing that makes me curious you know. Sumerian is the (epic) story .

 

[Vladd]

There are many Catholics left on the forum who do believe just that. Vladd, however, is not Catholic. He is a pagan with curiosity towards Catholicism.

I frankly just don’t know what to believe. That’s the reason I’m asking some Catholic opinions because I figure if any part of Christianity is right its the catholic church and people , so here I am trying to see if you guys can help and I’m very interested in Catholicism. Thanks