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rien
Guest
I suspect most are small - several hundred members. But are there any “large” indult parishes? Guess it depends on how one defines large but I am talking up to several thousand members.
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universalindult
Guest
According to an article in the March 2007 Homiletic and Pastoral Review, Pittsburgh is the largest.
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AlexB
Guest
Pittsburgh’s community is not a parish. It is a TLM community sharing a parish with a NO community.
I believe the largest true indult parish is St. Francis de Sales in St. Louis, both in terms of attendance and in terms of physical parish plant size.
It would be interesting to know whether Pittsburgh’s attendance exceeds St. Louis’. Hopefully some other reader will know.
Note that both Pittsburgh and St. Louis do not have much competition from NO “liturgical parishes”, such as exist in St. Paul, MN and Detroit. Their high attendance is at least partially due to their being the only games in town for traditional liturgy.
I believe the largest true indult parish is St. Francis de Sales in St. Louis, both in terms of attendance and in terms of physical parish plant size.
It would be interesting to know whether Pittsburgh’s attendance exceeds St. Louis’. Hopefully some other reader will know.
Note that both Pittsburgh and St. Louis do not have much competition from NO “liturgical parishes”, such as exist in St. Paul, MN and Detroit. Their high attendance is at least partially due to their being the only games in town for traditional liturgy.
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Goblin_Taters
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AlexB,
I don’t know about the numbers of attendance at St. Boniface in Pittsburgh. Maybe I haven’t been on traditional Catholic forums long enough, but what exactly are “liturgical parishes”? Are those NO parishes that try to maintain strictly to the liturgical rubrics?
The SSPX have a chapel in Carnegie, PA, maybe a 10-15 minutes-drive from downtown Pittsburgh. The SSPX community is much, much smaller than the indult parish though.
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universalindult
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Cobbfmly
Guest
The “Ecclesia Dei” in my diocese, St. Stephen the First Martyr, has over 700 active parishioners. Next school year 07/08 they are opening a 7th - 12th grade school. 7th and 8th grade will be co-ed with boys and girls seated separately in the classroom. 9th through 12th grade boys and girls are will be educated in single sex classrooms. All students will be parishioners of St. Stephens.
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Goblin_Taters
Guest
You know, it’s funny, the only two traditional indult churches I really know about are St. Boniface (through personal attendance) and St. Stephen the First Martyr, from a good friend who goes there when home and who tries to persuade me that, as great as St. Boniface is, St. Stephen is even better.
There’s an FSSP priest near my home, but he was just invited by the bishop maybe two-three years ago, and I suspect partially because there was an independent traditional Catholic group in the diocese close to the see and trying to draw people away from NO and into a clearly schismatic Catholic group. The FSSP priest only offers Low Mass so far as I am aware.
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JW10631
Guest
From what I have read, the TLM community at St. Boniface in Pittsburgh’s North Side is the largest. There are certain to be people who come from the Greensburg ¶ diocese, perhaps Youngstown and Steubenville (Ohio) as well, to attend Mass there.
I have been “working” on my wife to go to the TLM. We have a good priest at our NO parish, as well as a choir (the Saturday organist is Lutheran!) that often sings Latin hymns. What gets on my nerves is the “need” for eucharistic ministers (we are in a small parish and Father could easily give Holy Communion to all) and the talking that goes on after Mass. We do not have the abuses that go on at other parishes I have been to.
However, the TLM is quiet, reverent, and in my humble opinion, a more sacred form of worship.
I have been “working” on my wife to go to the TLM. We have a good priest at our NO parish, as well as a choir (the Saturday organist is Lutheran!) that often sings Latin hymns. What gets on my nerves is the “need” for eucharistic ministers (we are in a small parish and Father could easily give Holy Communion to all) and the talking that goes on after Mass. We do not have the abuses that go on at other parishes I have been to.
However, the TLM is quiet, reverent, and in my humble opinion, a more sacred form of worship.
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palmas85
Guest
I don’t know the largest in terms of registered parishners or members. I know that the ones that I have attended, New Orleans and San Diego are both probably in the 500 plus range.
I think the better question would be what percentage of those registered in the parish actually attend Mass on a regular basis. I think even though the indult groups may be smaller in number the percentage of those attending Mass more than likely far outstrips most parishes, most of who usually report attendances in the 30-40% range of those registered.
I think the better question would be what percentage of those registered in the parish actually attend Mass on a regular basis. I think even though the indult groups may be smaller in number the percentage of those attending Mass more than likely far outstrips most parishes, most of who usually report attendances in the 30-40% range of those registered.
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Goblin_Taters
Guest
Does your Lutheran organist ever play “A Mighty Fortress is Our God”?
I get bugged by “extra”-ordinary ministers as well. Supposedly most parishes need them because otherwise poor Father would be too worn out and people having already received would have to wait an inordinate amount of time (10 minutes) for all persons to finish receiving the Eucharist.
A few weeks ago, I attended a TLM. I was one of the first to receive, so I was back in the pew for a while as everyone else was receiving. I thanked God but then thought of something which may not have been the best thing to do at Mass, but I ended up doing it anyhow (mea culpa). I counted how many seconds there were between each person receiving communion at the altar rail from Father. I averaged it out to about 1 person / 2 seconds.
A week or two later I went to a NO Mass which had about four extraordinary Eucharistic ministers and no altar rail. I averaged the ratio of Eucharistic reception there to 1 person / 5 seconds.
It’s actually over twice as efficient to distribute the Eucharist while everyone is kneeling than when everyone is standing in a line, has to wait for the person to take the communion wafer, place it in the mouth, make the sign of the cross, and then step out of the way for the next person to inch forth. Plus, with the single priest along the altar rail at the TLM’s, there is the additional benefit of a mobile altar boy who prevents any Hosts or parts of it from falling to ground. And even if particles do fall to the ground, they are falling near or into the sanctuary and not on the floor below the nave.
I guess my point is that extra-ordinary ministers do not significantly increase the speed by which the Eucharist is received. Many people complain that, were there no extra-ordinary Eucharistic ministers it would be impractical for the Eucharist, since it would take forever, but in my view, communion at the altar rail with the priest is much more reverent than and also, by chance, nearly as efficient as having even 3-4 extra-ordinary ministers.
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PKinsale
Guest
Here in St. Louis, there are two places to go for an indult Mass. the St. Francis de Sales Oratory is in the city, staffed by the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest.
Also, in the western suburbs, is the Priory of the Annuniation, run by the Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem.
God bless Archbishop Burke!
Also, in the western suburbs, is the Priory of the Annuniation, run by the Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem.
God bless Archbishop Burke!
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Goblin_Taters
Guest
Ah yes, Archbishop Burke. I’ve heard very good things about him.
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Genesis315
Guest
Why does it have to be two separate communities? Why can’t it be one church that offers both options. “Traditionalists” can’t keep separating themselves from other Catholics or they will have a much more difficult time bringing about the authentic reform that only comes through changing hearts, not just changing liturgical law.
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Goblin_Taters
Guest
Why must the traditionalists conform to the “majority” opinion? You need to give the traditional, indult Catholics a lot of credit. Despite the liturgical abuses, the stripping of the altars, the blatant heresies of bishops, the elimination of Latin from the liturgy of the Church, the sweeping under of long-held Latin beliefs such as matters of Church of State and the openy declared necessity of remaining or becoming Catholic (High Church Anglican doesn’t cut it), these Catholics, unlike many “independent Catholics,” have believed that, despite all the problems in the Church today, despite the fact that the NO liturgy as it exists in parishes is an ecumenical, Protestantized mess, that millions have lost faith in and have left the Church, and despite the fact that for years a restrictiction of celebrating the TLM was painfully imposed on all Catholics by papal authority, these traditional Catholics through faith have remained loyal to the Church they believe to be the Catholic Church, and to its head, the Vicar of Christ, the Bishop of Rome.
In my opinion, if anyone is “separating” themselves from the Catholic community, it is those Catholics who look at their ancestors in the faith and judge them as simply backward, legalistic, un-modern, not-with-the-times, and too stubborn to admit error–in short, in need of great reform.
So far as many traditional Catholics are concerned, the errors that pervade the Catholic Church today in her theology and liturgy are good cause to stick to more traditional forms of worship and theology (such as Thomism) which are less susceptible to heresy. Even the Popes have decried the crisis of the Church today. Many “progressive” Catholics believe that the Catholic Church can simply assimilate into itself postmodern thought and modern styles of living. But much of postmodernism is opposed to the Catholic truth pronounced by the Popes over the centuries. Traditional Catholics keep in mind that loyalty to the Church means remaining true to the teachings of the Church and ALL the Popes and not just the Popes of the late 20th century viewed exclusively.
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Andreas_Hofer
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Ideally, the parish should be an integrated whole, just as among parishes Latins should associate freely and fraternally with Easterners and Orientals. So I’ll run with you on the main line of critique. I’ll part ways, though, in assigning blame specifically to traditionalists for the phenomenon of separation and elaborate on this by saying that even if there winds up being fairly strict segregation among “communities” it need not be for anything other than standard, unimpeachable motives.
For example, families differ on parenting styles, interests, schedules, ages and number of children, pieties and favorite devotions, etc. We typically wouldn’t castigate an NO parishioner who attends 10:00am Mass for not going out of his way to cultivate close friendship with a Saturday evening Mass-goer with nearly no points of personality commonality, even if we hoped that everyone’s involvement in other aspects of parish life would eventually lead to enough interaction that those two people would get to know one another. If we don’t condemn that man, why condemn a TLMer who is basically operating under the same forces?
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Sir_Catholic
Guest
I have read in the Latin Mass Magazine that St. John Cantius in Chicago has a thousand people attending the Latin Mass.
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Fred_4
Guest
What’s “indult”?
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CatQuilt
Guest
Excellent analysis!
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rien
Guest
With due respect I think you are generally wrong here.
The “problem” I see with traditional parishes is a lack of evangelization. They become self-contained communities instead of open sources of authentic traditional Catholocism for all to imbibe.
Frankly an indult/traditional parish is, IMO, a form of ghettoizing. Better to be an indult group in a multi-faceted parish than wall oneself off.
This is why, IMO, that the traditional movement and parishes have not garnered “converts” or really grown - even where allowed to be freely established.
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water
Guest
I don’t really know, but my parish has more than 14,000 registered and many unregistered keep coming after we have had a larger church built recently.
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