Which is the largest US indult parish?

[rien]

I don’t really know, but my parish has more than 14,000 registered and many unregistered keep coming after we have had a larger church built recently.

But is yours an indult parish?

 

[water]

ooops, my bad. I didn’t see that word.

Indult Catholics is a term used to denote Roman Catholics who prefer to attend the Latin-language Tridentine rite of Mass as used prior to 1969 rather than the standard present-day form of the liturgy.

No, it is not.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Rien,

Thank you for your response. I have added my reflections on what you have written.

The “problem” I see with traditional parishes is a lack of evangelization. They become self-contained communities instead of open sources of authentic traditional Catholocism for all to imbibe.

This depends on how one defines evangelism. While some traditional Catholic communities may be “self-contained,” they are quite open to visitors and those who want to know more about traditional Catholicism.

I don’t agree with everything the SSPX says, in fact some of what they say appears quite wrong to me, but a few weeks ago I filled out a form on their site for them to send me an information packet to learn more about what they are all about. I received four bound books plus several pamphlets in the mail within a week. I know when I went to an Indult TLM near me, there was a welcome envelope packet for those who are new to the TLM. I picked one up and inside were all kinds of goodies for those interested in learning more about the TLM they witness.

Frankly an indult/traditional parish is, IMO, a form of ghettoizing. Better to be an indult group in a multi-faceted parish than wall oneself off.

In a sense true. Many bishops would rather have the traditional Catholics ghettoized in a TLM community still attached to the diocese than in separate, independent communities that do little to support the diocese.

This is why, IMO, that the traditional movement and parishes have not garnered “converts” or really grown - even where allowed to be freely established.

There are converts from other faiths to the traditional Catholic movement. I have two good friends who converted from Protestantism (both from Anabaptist-root churches) to traditional Catholicism. One entered directly into a traditional Catholic Latin Mass community, the other entered through the Novus Ordo but quickly decided to go to TLM’s.

It should be noted that many TLM communities have only existed for a relatively short period of time, many less than twenty years. The FSSP which provides many priests for TLM communities was only founded in 1988. While not impossible, one cannot expect a giant spike in growth of the traditional Catholic communities. However, it should be interesting: many traditional Catholics, like conservative Catholics, still believe in and are having large families. It should be interesting to see what happens 10-20 years from now when these children raised with the TLM make decisions of their own concerning religion, marriage and family.

 

[rien]

Rien,

Thank you for your response. I have added my reflections on what you have written.

This depends on how one defines evangelism. While some traditional Catholic communities may be “self-contained,” they are quite open to visitors and those who want to know more about traditional Catholicism.

I don’t agree with everything the SSPX says, in fact some of what they say appears quite wrong to me, but a few weeks ago I filled out a form on their site for them to send me an information packet to learn more about what they are all about. I received four bound books plus several pamphlets in the mail within a week. I know when I went to an Indult TLM near me, there was a welcome envelope packet for those who are new to the TLM. I picked one up and inside were all kinds of goodies for those interested in learning more about the TLM they witness.

In a sense true. Many bishops would rather have the traditional Catholics ghettoized in a TLM community still attached to the diocese than in separate, independent communities that do little to support the diocese.

There are converts from other faiths to the traditional Catholic movement. I have two good friends who converted from Protestantism (both from Anabaptist-root churches) to traditional Catholicism. One entered directly into a traditional Catholic Latin Mass community, the other entered through the Novus Ordo but quickly decided to go to TLM’s.

It should be noted that many TLM communities have only existed for a relatively short period of time, many less than twenty years. The FSSP which provides many priests for TLM communities was only founded in 1988. While not impossible, one cannot expect a giant spike in growth of the traditional Catholic communities. However, it should be interesting: many traditional Catholics, like conservative Catholics, still believe in and are having large families. It should be interesting to see what happens 10-20 years from now when these children raised with the TLM make decisions of their own concerning religion, marriage and family.

Whether the youth carry on the traditional faith is a question. I have a friend at work who home-scholed before there was the FSSP and such but all 3 of her orthodox raised sons have converted to evangelical Christianity. Maybe it was peer pressure or no other traditonal young folks for them to network with but I still feel a ghettoized traditional community will not work and the next generation will largely fall away as happened with my co-worker.

 

[DustinsDad]

Here in St. Louis, there are two places to go for an indult Mass. the St. Francis de Sales Oratory is in the city, staffed by the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest.

Also, in the western suburbs, is the Priory of the Annuniation, run by the Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem.

God bless Archbishop Burke!

And for us Metro-East folks, there is also the “Log Cabin” church at Holy Family parish in Cahokia. They have a modern church building where the N.O. Mass is celebrated, and and the log cabin church where TLM is offered every Sunday by - I believe - a priest who comes over from St. Louis.

I believe (the log cabin church) it’s the oldest standing catholic Church east of the Mississippi. (1799 - the original was established in 1699 but was destroyed by fire in 1783)

http://www.archstl.org/about/images/cahokia.jpg

Very small, but very nice - and the folks there are great. Given it’s age, it kind of gives me goosebumps to think of the Holy Sacrifice being offered there over the years - all that grace!

I normally attend St. Francis de Sales, but attend at Holy Family from time to time.

Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad

 

[kleary]

What’s “indult”?

An “Indult” is a special permission to use a form other than the “norm”. A great example of this is permission to receive Holy Communion in the hand. Communion in the hand is an “indult”, a special permission to deviate from the “norm” which is communion “on the tongue”. Yes Virginia, the “norm” is not communion in the hand but on the tongue.

At my “parish” as I like to call it, we are technically a “mission” in the parish of St. Edward in the Diocese of Camden. Initially we were made a “mission” because Bishop Dimarzio, who established us back in 2000, was not sure if Mater Ecclesiae could support itself. Even though the finances have always been good since that time they chose not to become a “parish”. With no geographical boundary anyone can register and receive the Sacraments at Mater Ecclesiae.

Mater Ecclesiae is the only Diocesean staffed Mission Church that uses the Roman Missal of 1962 for all masses. We have daily mass 6 days and two masses on Sunday with an anticipatory mass on Sat. One priest, God bless Fr. Pasley- does it all.

My family, we live in the parish of St. Vincent de Paul in Mays Landing, NJ. However all three of my children have been baptized at Mater Ecclesiae and that is where they will receive First Holy Communion and Confirmation.

Ken

 

[DustinsDad]

…The “problem” I see with traditional parishes is a lack of evangelization. They become self-contained communities instead of open sources of authentic traditional Catholocism for all to imbibe.

I have no idea what the “stats” are, but a thought immediately came to mind. Given that the majority of catholics these days are wary of the TLM and of traditional catholics in general - even your average faithful N.O. attendees don’t know what to make of us . Is it no wonder that a prospective convert is going to be steared away from a traditional parish from the get-go.

…Frankly an indult/traditional parish is, IMO, a form of ghettoizing. Better to be an indult group in a multi-faceted parish than wall oneself off. This is why, IMO, that the traditional movement and parishes have not garnered “converts” or really grown - even where allowed to be freely established.

I’d have to disagree with you here on a couple of points.

First of all, I’m not sure what you mean by “ghettoizing” - unless that means that more often than not indults are offered on the “wrong side of the tracks” - crime ridden neighborhoods, run down neighborhoods, etc. All the more reason why prospective “converts” might not show up, and all the more reason why respect must be given by those devout faithful that do - week in and week out.

Secondly, I’m more inclined to belong to a traditonal only type parish (which is probably why I attend and am a member of St. Francis de Sales) - simply because of the whole parish lifestyle revolves around those wonderful traditions of the faith. Daily TLM, evening TLMs often, Benedictions, 40-Hours-Devotion, Stations, abundant opportunities for the Sacrament of Confession. Just tonight my son and I attended low mass and Mother of Perpetual Help devotions at 6:30 PM. Very nice - Thank you ArchBishop Burke!

Peace,

DustinsDad

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by rien:

Whether the youth carry on the traditional faith is a question. I have a friend at work who home-scholed before there was the FSSP and such but all 3 of her orthodox raised sons have converted to evangelical Christianity. Maybe it was peer pressure or no other traditonal young folks for them to network with but I still feel a ghettoized traditional community will not work and the next generation will largely fall away as happened with my co-worker.

I regularly attended a NO church for all my childhood and most of my early adulthood. (I’m 24) Personally, I’ve had the same experiences that you have had only with the NO Church I’ve attended. One member of my family became evangelical Christian. Another re-verted back to Protestantism. I can think of at least two good friends about my age who have left the Catholic faith. One even seriously considered becoming a priest. Neither of these two friends has entered into any other church community so far as I am aware.

I think the inroads of secularism in general, its impact on social pressures, and poor catechesis are major reasons for fall-outs in both NO and traditional Catholic communities.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

And for us Metro-East folks, there is also the “Log Cabin” church at Holy Family parish in Cahokia. They have a modern church building where the N.O. Mass is celebrated, and and the log cabin church where TLM is offered every Sunday by - I believe - a priest who comes over from St. Louis.

I believe (the log cabin church) it’s the oldest standing catholic Church east of the Mississippi. (1799 - the original was established in 1699 but was destroyed by fire in 1783)

http://www.archstl.org/about/images/cahokia.jpg

Very small, but very nice - and the folks there are great. Given it’s age, it kind of gives me goosebumps to think of the Holy Sacrifice being offered there over the years - all that grace!

I normally attend St. Francis de Sales, but attend at Holy Family from time to time.

Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad

Having lived in the Belleville diocese for a little over a year, I was always glad to see that an indult at least existed there but, as with so much in the diocese, it was right near Belleville, which is well over an hour away from much of the rest of the diocese. I was living down in Johnson county and wishing that the indult could be closer to me instead of to twice-blest folks like you who were much more free to jump over to St. Louis, anyway. Having officially lodged my off-topic post for the thread, I will now read on in an attempt to post something on-point as well.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

With due respect I think you are generally wrong here.

The “problem” I see with traditional parishes is a lack of evangelization. They become self-contained communities instead of open sources of authentic traditional Catholocism for all to imbibe.

Frankly an indult/traditional parish is, IMO, a form of ghettoizing. Better to be an indult group in a multi-faceted parish than wall oneself off.

This is why, IMO, that the traditional movement and parishes have not garnered “converts” or really grown - even where allowed to be freely established.

If we’re talking about simple growth, I know we get into the problem of not having any official studied on the matter but it seems that nearly all anecdotal evidence points to traditional communities - be it attendance at a single Mass in an NO parish or a whole indult parish - are growing.

As far as trying to judge the notion of a TLM parish based on converts, though, I think it’s a question that doesn’t do justice to the reality on the ground. For one, you’re playing a numbers game with people who are, from the outset, seriously disadvantaged by the numbers. Look analogously at Eastern Catholics. They represent an integral part of Catholicism, handing on faith and tradition of ancient provenance, yet are basically fighting for their lives against assimilation as Latins in the West because their low numbers mean availability is a strike against them and potential converts to the faith might be more inclined to be “normal” Catholics at any rate. The same applies to traditionalist Latins. With most any parish official you talk to telling you that traditionalists are a bunch of retrogade neanderthals threatening the unity of the Church and insisting on clinging to special permissions despite the fact that the Church has moved on, would you be willing to get up 2 hours earlier and drive 30 min (or 60, or 90) longer to explore that form of Catholic life?

Furthermore, making all traditionalists attend Mass only at one offering of an otherwise NO parish would prevent most anyone at all from “converting to traditional Catholicism” because the reception structure would be set up to run people through RCIA and integrate them into “normal” parish life - RCIA didn’t exist in 1962. As much as a pastor or DRE might try to expose catechumens and candidates to that element of the parish’s liturgical life, it would not be something converts were free to explore as a Catholic worldview until they had already had to be formed in a different milieu.

Finally, I would gladly recognize that many TLM communities of any stripe are not very seeker friendly, but I would couple that with an acknowledgement that many NO communities are also not seeker friendly. I think any defects in evangelical zeal are a Catholic problem, not a traditionalist problem, because as many anecdotes might prove there are also TLM communities that make it a point to welcome newcomers and take positive steps to invite others to investigate their traditional spirituality.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by Andreas Hofer:

If we’re talking about simple growth, I know we get into the problem of not having any official studied on the matter but it seems that nearly all anecdotal evidence points to traditional communities - be it attendance at a single Mass in an NO parish or a whole indult parish - are growing.

As far as trying to judge the notion of a TLM parish based on converts, though, I think it’s a question that doesn’t do justice to the reality on the ground. For one, you’re playing a numbers game with people who are, from the outset, seriously disadvantaged by the numbers. Look analogously at Eastern Catholics. They represent an integral part of Catholicism, handing on faith and tradition of ancient provenance, yet are basically fighting for their lives against assimilation as Latins in the West because their low numbers mean availability is a strike against them and potential converts to the faith might be more inclined to be “normal” Catholics at any rate. The same applies to traditionalist Latins. With most any parish official you talk to telling you that traditionalists are a bunch of retrogade neanderthals threatening the unity of the Church and insisting on clinging to special permissions despite the fact that the Church has moved on, would you be willing to get up 2 hours earlier and drive 30 min (or 60, or 90) longer to explore that form of Catholic life?

Furthermore, making all traditionalists attend Mass only at one offering of an otherwise NO parish would prevent most anyone at all from “converting to traditional Catholicism” because the reception structure would be set up to run people through RCIA and integrate them into “normal” parish life - RCIA didn’t exist in 1962. As much as a pastor or DRE might try to expose catechumens and candidates to that element of the parish’s liturgical life, it would not be something converts were free to explore as a Catholic worldview until they had already had to be formed in a different milieu.

Finally, I would gladly recognize that many TLM communities of any stripe are not very seeker friendly, but I would couple that with an acknowledgement that many NO communities are also not seeker friendly. I think any defects in evangelical zeal are a Catholic problem, not a traditionalist problem, because as many anecdotes might prove there are also TLM communities that make it a point to welcome newcomers and take positive steps to invite others to investigate their traditional spirituality.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you, all who participated.