Which is the lesser sin/better path?

[tskrobacz]

They are not personal posts. They are posted on a public forum.

And I didn’t attack your intentions. I questioned your intentions.

And my question remains, how does your post help the OP?

I think we can leave it to the OP to decide if my original post is helpful or not.

 

[ktmeyer]

I think we can leave it to the OP to decide if my original post is helpful or not.

Not helpful. I already know that children are a gift, and I don’t want to prevent them. My husband does.

 

[gardenswithkids]

His insistence on both withdrawal and another form of birth control seems a bit obsessive, but is rooted in the fact that **the oldest child was a birth control baby, and the youngest was a NFP baby. **And when we used condoms, once upon a time, those broke more than once. He doesn’t trust any method totally, other than permanent measures.

For health reasons I need to avoid conceiving right now, but in a few months that may change, and I think we will have to revisit the subject then.

Well, is he thinking of going three for three and adding a post-vasectomy baby to the family?

Since he doesn’t trust any methods, there’s abstinence. Abstaining doesn’t have the negative side effects that contraception and sterilization have. Since he’s not Catholic, maybe instead of trying to present moral arguments against contraception and sterilization, present negative the medical side effects that some people experience. Some women have died because of using contraception! lifesitenews.com/news/just-the-tip-of-the-iceberg-23-canadian-women-dead-in-6-years-while-on-yaz We aren’t suppose to give medical advice, but even setting morals aside, there are good reasons not to use contraception. Likewise, some people encounter very negative medical complications following sterilization, such as chronic pain in that region of the body. And, (although not very common) sometimes a man who had a vasectomy can get his wife pregnant.

I see you wrote you have some health reasons for wanting to prevent another pregnancy right now, but while you would like more eventually, it sounds like he doesn’t want any more children. It can be very difficult on a marriage when couples don’t agree on these matters, but a kind and loving treatment from you, (along with prayer), may be your best recourse. Have you had any calm, rational discussions with him about why he doesn’t want more children? If you do initiate this discussion, just listen–don’t argue or try to persuade him to change his mind. Hear where he’s coming from, because what motivates him to want the vasectomy or pressure you to use contraception is rooted with his desire to have no more children. Pray and let the Holy Spirit work on him regarding that. And as long as he’s quite serious about not having any more, would he consider abstinence?

 

[tskrobacz]

Not helpful. I already know that children are a gift, and I don’t want to prevent them. My husband does.

CCC (2280): We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of (, or in your husband’s case prevent.)

 

[Xantippe]

ktmeyer said:

“I already know that children are a gift, and I don’t want to prevent them. My husband does.”

Right.

tskrobacz said:

“CCC (2280): We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of (, or in your husband’s case prevent.)”

That doesn’t help a lot in figuring out how to cope with her husband. I didn’t get the feeling that all he needed was chapter and verse from the CCC to change his mind.

gardenswithkids said:

“Well, is he thinking of going three for three and adding a post-vasectomy baby to the family?”

Funny!

 

[ktmeyer]

Well, is he thinking of going three for three and adding a post-vasectomy baby to the family?

Ha! Actually, we have 3 now, but one was not a birth control failure, exactly, lol. I wanted a baby, and he did too…just “not yet”. So I told him fine, he knows how babies are made. If he doesn’t want one, he knows what to do. I’m not doing anything other than tracking my cycle. So before we were intimate he would ask if I was fertile, and if I was he’d use a condom. Well, one day he didn’t ask. And then we had Molly

Seriously, he wasn’t mad or opposed at that point to having a baby, he just couldn’t bring himself to try for one. We laugh and say it was our “don’t ask don’t tell” policy of babymaking.

I’d do the same now, except instead of condoms I think he’d go ahead with the vasectomy.

 

[Lamentation]

…He’d also like to show the children places around the country/world…travel is the one thing he really loves, and we can’t really afford to travel with 3 kids, more would mean we never could, in his mind.

My grandparents had 6 kids, very little money, and somehow stuffed them all into a 1960s Chevy Caprice Wagon; driving from New York to places as far as Yellowstone National Park.

…where there’s a will, there’s a way:shrug:

 

[Iron_Donkey]

CCC (2280): We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of (, or in your husband’s case prevent.)

She knows this too. The OP was whether or not it is morally ok to do one thing that is immoral in order that her husband would avoid doing another immoral thing that could have worse consequences, with the statement what the husband would consider doing (though he does not know or believe it) is also wrong built in.

If we want to throw out Catechism passages, I think they’d have to be:

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. … One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” *** is intrinsically evil:***159

Altogether, contraception is intrinsically evil, and intrinsically evil acts are never permitted, even if the goal is good (which it obviously is).

Of course, I suspect you might know this this far into the thread as well, kt. Doesn’t make the decision any less gut-wrenching, of course, but it does point out which way Catholic teaching says it should go.

 

[chemaeslay]

I was sent to teach many people about love…but they killed me in the womb
I was sent with new ideas to cure disease…but they killed me in the womb
I was sent to be a modern saint and live heroic virtues, a model for all to see…but they killed me in the womb
I was sent to be born with severe disabilities, to teach compassion to many…but they killed me in the womb
I was sent to lead you out of poverty by rendering hope within your hearts…but they killed me in the womb
I was sent to help a homeless man find shelter on a cold and windy night…but they killed me in the womb

I sent you to save a child from drowning…but they blocked your conception
I sent you to show my love in art and music…but they blocked your conception
I sent you to hold your mother’s hand as she transitioned from life to death…but they blocked your conception
I sent you to break the cycle of addiction in your family and friends…but they blocked your conception
I sent you to fight for justice…but they blocked your conception
I sent you to teach many people about love…but they blocked my love from entering the world through you.

Exactly… very well said…

 

[lily22]

it’s a trick, he’s trying to blame her for his selfishness/sin. He’s trying to trick her into using birth control by harassing her/making her feel guilty/lying/cheating her.

if he takes himself to a doctor that’s HIS problem. He can’t blame HER, say "oh, you didn’t do this/that so I’m getting a VASECTOMY!!! Whop knows what tomorrow will bring. If you don’t make me dinner, I’ll do this/that…

Complete control problem on his part. He can’t live with the fact that there’s something about HER he can’t control.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

I disagree. The wife is not being selfish here (it is good to want to be open to children in marriage). Marriage is ordered towards procreation, and she is trying to help her husband avoid impeding procreation forever. This is good, and matches God’s plan for marriage.

Yes, it is good to be open to children in marriage. Yes, it is good for her to invite her husband into this practice to please God. However, for a couple to get to a “If this, then that” there has to be selfish undertones that are unspoken (looks, tone, actions).

The Feminist culture takes away mens respect and dignaty in family planning. Even when we try to honor marriage the way God intended, we need to heal the hurts from the past to avoid “ill do this if you don’t do that” ultimatums. This man is trying to lead his family (as God also intended in the beginning) and probably is not feeling respected and heard about his hope for the family direction. Granted, he probably needs to have a heart to heart withGod first, but meanwhile, the wife can probably spend more time healing this mans hurts by respecting why he is not open to children instead of focusing on the mechanics (birth control: pills vs visectomys). It’s kinda like talking a suicide person off a ledge … Patience, kindness, and empathy can help the situation before things go too far.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

it’s a trick, he’s trying to blame her for his selfishness/sin. He’s trying to trick her into using birth control by harassing her/making her feel guilty/lying/cheating her.

if he takes himself to a doctor that’s HIS problem. He can’t blame HER, say "oh, you didn’t do this/that so I’m getting a VASECTOMY!!! Whop knows what tomorrow will bring. If you don’t make me dinner, I’ll do this/that…

Complete control problem on his part. He can’t live with the fact that there’s something about HER he can’t control.

While control issues are a problem for many men … I have to wonder why is it so problematic in this feminist culture we have created. Is it because of the whole “my body my choice … But still pay child support!!!” menalities? Is it the whole independence movment where women are guided to do everything them selves (including invetrofertLization)?

God tells us we are to submit. Yes, submition applies first and foremost to God. We give our husbands the respect they crave when we can submit to their plan for the family. Our choice comes with our fiat at our Nuptual mass. Certainly, we must promote Gods plan. In doing so, we should not disrespect our husbands to make them feel they have to make an all or nothing choice. I say the man has equal, but different rights, in controlling the family. I see the value of your opinion, but fear it promotes too deep of a clipping of the male role in the family.