Which is the Rock: Peter, or the truth of Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God?

[mesl4]

Thought I answered this one up in Post #12:

…does that mean Jesus’ words apply ONLY to Peter? Imagine this:

Jesus: “Peter, I’ve got some good news and some bad news. First, I say to you that YOU possess the keys to the kingdom and whatever YOU bound on earth was bound in heaven. The bad news is that power and authority is going to die with you. So we made this long trip up to Caesarea Phillipi to stand in front of this big rock as a backdrop just so I can predict something that’s going to last maybe 40 years or so.”

That’s not what I mean though. If Peter is in heaven w/the keys, than it’s not over once he dies so it doesn’t need to be passed on. He lets them in or not once the spirit gets there.

As for this being Jesus’ way of telling Peter that he will be the one that opens the Church to the Gentiles — well, it isn’t mentioned at all here, or even implied in the context.

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It’s not mentioned here, but I thought that was one of the things the Catholics refer to when they say Peter was given power to bind and loose. It is totally related to the subject of his authority.

 

[mercygate]

Fidelis;4531787--------------------------------------------------------------------------------:

The power of binding and loosing (shared with all the Apostles) DOES need to continue. One of the things they (and their successors) do under the power of the keys is loose the bonds of sin through confession (or “bind” it by not pronouncing absolution when circumstances do not allow it, e.g., when the person is clearly impenitent. Binding and loosing also refers to statements of doctrine and to disciplines of the Church.

 

[mercygate]

Ouch. I really messed up the quote feature in responding to mes14 above. Her question was why should the power of the keys remain on earth since St. Peter is at the pearly gates letting people in. I give mes14 credit for understanding that the keys are spiritual keys, and not a set of bronze keys . . . (we get that here, y’know!)

I will add to this post that the image of Peter standing at the gates a popular culture icon rather than a theological construct.

The power of binding and loosing (shared with all the Apostles) DOES need to continue here on earth until the Lord comes again. One of the things the Apostles (and their successors) do under the power of the keys is loose the bonds of sin through confession (or “bind” it by not pronouncing absolution when circumstances do not allow it, e.g., when the person is clearly impenitent. Binding and loosing also refers to statements of doctrine and to disciplines of the Church./

 

[YADA]

The the Prime Minister - holder of the “keys” is an ‘office’ … as such it continues …

King David received the promises of god … that his ‘kingdom’ would have no end … Solomon was the successor of King David … Jesus is of the “shoot of Jesse” … a successor to the Davidic Kingdom … and the Ultimate and last [so yes I get that there is no earlthly king any more] …

The Prime Minister held an “Office” in the Davidic Kingdom … he held “keys” that sumbolizes his authority to act on behalf of the King in the King’s absence … This authority/power is described as the power to “open what none may shut and shut what none may open” … The people know this Prime Minister by the Title of “Abba”, [Father, Papa, Pope, Daddy, Pa … you get that … ]

Jesus leeft a Prime Minister … An Office who first occupant was Simon Bar Jonah … renamed “Peter” …

As noted, the other Apostles were given the power to Bind & Loose but were not given the “keys” nor were their names canged … they were delegated certain authority similar to Peter’s but not the same as Peter’s …

Is the office clearly meant to go through time … yes … we see that in Peter’s decision to fill the vacant office of Judas …

We see that in the other offices that are creatd to meet the needs of the Church [Bishops - the name given to the successors of the Apostles, Priests, Deacons] …

We see that “office” being discussed in the qualifications for the successors … initially with Judas, they wanted some who had traveled with the group and who had heard Jesus preach … later as the original apostles began to die off and the Church [who originally thought Jesus would be returning soon] realized that generations might come and go before that event … they set criteria … A Bishop could have only one wif, his family must me under his control … Now days, we requires Mster’s degrees from prestigious Seminaries and other things …

Biblically and hsitorically the position is an office … when it is vacant it is filled again …

 

[seekersal]

hi -am reading the letters and enjoying the info- esp comment from Brian;Iam a Baptist, raised Episcopal, and am really looking at Catholic faith- love Ewtn and Mother A. Have just read ‘Jesus, Peter , and the Keys, by ScottButler, Norman Dahlgren,andDavidHess- it explains the papacy. got it from local library.Scott Hahn reviews- ’ this veritble compendium is simply staggering’ . am attending a local Mass; Iknow that I’m not allowed to participate, but that’s ok for now- would someone like to explain what the Mass is- Iasked a pastor at the church and he told me that it’s not necessary to sacrifice Christ again at Mass; and gave me the verse about ’ once ,and for all time, in Hebrews ? meanwhile, the Catholic books I’ve been reading gave me the same exact verse!!! so I NEED to really understand it and NOT ask the Baptist man anything else for now] what is Tiber Swim Team? a person who converts? Also, I believeMary is everything Catholics say she is and am learning the rosary. but don’t understand it well. except that its different from reading the Bible. but I really like it sincerely, SeekerSal. .

 

[Robbinson]

• would someone like to explain what the Mass is- Iasked a pastor at the church and he told me that it’s not necessary to sacrifice Christ again at Mass; and gave me the verse about ’ once ,and for all time, in Hebrews ? meanwhile, the Catholic books I’ve been reading gave me the same exact verse!!! so I NEED to really understand it

On the Sacrifice of Mass - the Catholic doctrine is not that Christ is re-sacrificed over and over again (although that is a common misperception among many protestants and even many Catholics - and repeated to you by your pastor friend) but rather that we are participating currently in the once and forever sacrifice of Christ in a bloodless manor. It is not a new or different sacrifice - it is a mystical participation in which all members of the Body of Christ are called to participate, just as the saints in heaven (or departed brothers/sisters in Christ) participate in it.

In terms of where did this doctrine come from? If you look into early church history, you will find language in the Didache (AD 70) and numerous quotes from the early church fathers (starting in 80AD) referencing the “sacrifice” in connection with the Eucharist and it harkens back to scripture in Malachi which discusses a continuous offering being made to the Lord.

what is Tiber Swim Team? a person who converts?

Yes - the Tiber is a major river in Rome and someone who crosses over to Catholicism is often referred as one who “crossed, or swam, the Tiber”. The “Tiber Swimteam Class of ___” generally denotes the year of conversion. This isn’t an official Catholic thing - just Board talk

Also, I believeMary is everything Catholics say she is and am learning the rosary. but don’t understand it well. except that its different from reading the Bible. but I really like it sincerely, SeekerSal. .

That’s good - but I think we can show you that Catholic doctrines on Mary all have a basis in scripture (as well as a tradition going back to the earliest years of the Church).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[seekersal]

thanks Brian for your imput; will look this up. am new to message boards, hope everyone who has written to me Hi Maya] will see their replies. not at all sure where this will end up What is the spiritual significance/ benefits of receiving Him at Communion; we as Baptists do it as a memorial for His Atonement ; Iwatch EWTN ; the Euchrist program where the fathers and young adults hang out on a retreat and discuss the wonderful lifechanging impact the Euchrist has; or the Adoration . Why don’t the Prot. or other Christians learn this? I feel ripped off.but on the other hand, there’s a lot to be said for what my church has already taught me- the gifts of the Spirit charisms ?] you can learn what those are by a test and being evaluated and so you can know where to serve; and thus avoid serving in a capacity that He hasn’t equipped you for. It’s really exciting to find that out. but as I look at Catholics, I see so much that Prots don’t know. but some of the doctrines bother me ; but I’ll have to tackle one at a time- SS

 

[seekersal]

hI again- re Mary; would like anyScriptures if you have them- know about the Queen Mother as Co Regent from King Solomon.don’t understand the concept of her assisting in our actual salvation as in Atonement??. Have heard that she is vital to go to Heaven; Prots are told that only His Blood Atonement on the Cross makes that possible; also, that all of our sins, past present and future are paid for so why is Purgatory needed. this has caused me sleepless nights and anxiety. but must chill and pray have you heard of Don Piper’s books; 90 minutes in Heaven , and ’ Heaven is Real’ He ‘s a Prot Pastor that was hit by a semi and died; he was driving home from a pastor’s retreat and was hit- the Lord told his pastor friend who was also driving behind him to stop and pray- the EMS had found no vital signs and covered him with a tarp- he sang’ what a Friend we have in Jesus’ ’ and prayed and he heard Don sing back to him!!! the medics thought he was crazy ; and then the story continues, he spent 90 minutes in Heaven and tells all about it. He is on Christian Tv and talk shows at times to share. the books are great.This happened back in the 80’s I think,. one thing that I don’t like is the mystical aspect of some saints, like bilocations and levitations. that just sounds too weird . but that isn’t mainstream Catholicism is it? kind of fringe maybe- no offense meant. whew. I have alot of questions. thanks for listening . SS

 

[jean8]

AMEN! Yes, the entire approach to God, salvation, prayer, church,etc. is different. The more I get to know, the more different it is. I have to regut my belief system except for the trinity concept. God seems scarier , less merciful, and the gospel doesn’t feel like good news from my Catholic perspective. I feel like I’ll be constantly living in the fear of hell instead of living in joy with the gift of salvation God’s given me. Instead of going to church and doing good for others out of love for God and enjoyment of praising him w/the body of believers, I’ll go to church out of fear of damnation since to miss Sunday/days of obligation is a mortal sin. It takes the joy out of Christianity.

mes,
There is a scripture that tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. I’m sure that your familiar with it.
Another word to consider is ‘sanctification’. We are sanctified through Jesus Christ and called to be holy.1Cor.1:2 also,
we are sanctified daiily.

God bless you,
jean8

 

[mpernot]

hI again- re Mary; would like anyScriptures if you have them- know about the Queen Mother as Co Regent from King Solomon.don’t understand the concept of her assisting in our actual salvation as in Atonement??. Have heard that she is vital to go to Heaven; Prots are told that only His Blood Atonement on the Cross makes that possible;

Hi Seekersal, great questions and you have come to the right place. At the risk of going off-topic, I’ll give you a few answers. Jesus did do all that was required to open heaven to us; as Catholics, we believe that. Mary does not add to anything that Jesus did, but Jesus allows Mary to assist in our redemption. She doesn’t merit this ability by anything she has done (she is not God and we do not worship her); she is a created creature, and any powers such as these she possesses are because God allows it to happen. Mary’s role in our salvation does not exist to bring people to herself; she is there to bring us to her Son.

As for your question about Mary as the the Queen Mother, I was involved in a thread that discussed this very thing. It is a long and winding thread that goes off topic at times, but it deals with a lot of common objections to Mary and supports Catholic beliefs on Mary with Scripture. If you have time to go through all of it (the second half is definitely meatier, but it makes more sense after the first half), you will find a ton of Scripture presented on this argument’s behalf:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=282633

also, that all of our sins, past present and future are paid for so why is Purgatory needed. this has caused me sleepless nights and anxiety.

Jesus did pay the only price that will ever have to be paid for all of our sins. Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for the forgiveness of all sins; however, there is a temporal price that we the sinner have to pay for our sins even after we have received forgiveness. This does not indicate any inadequacy in Jesus’s sacrifice; it indicates a requirement for entering heaven. Purgatory exists for us to pay this temporal price if we have not completely paid it before we die, since we will not be able to enter heaven until we been both forgiven and have paid all our debt (Matt 18:35).

An example of this temporal punishment after forgiveness of sins from Scripture:

2 Samuel 11:27 - “And the mourning being over, David sent and brought her into his house, and she became his wife, and she bore him a son: and this thing which David had done, was displeasing to the Lord.”

David has just had Urias killed and commits adultery in this verse. Notice what God thinks about David’s actions. Now in 2 Samuel 12:13 David realizes that he was wrong after Nathan’s parable reveals it to him:

2 Samuel 12:13: “And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die.”

David has confessed his sin and been forgiven by God, but all effects of the sin are not erased:

2 Samuel 12:14-18 - “Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die. And Nathan returned to his house. The Lord also struck the child which the wife of Urias had borne to David, and his life was despaired of. And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground. And the ancients of his house came, to make him rise from the ground: but he would not, neither did he eat meat with them. And it came to pass on the seventh day that the child died.”

There was punishment for David’s sin even after forgiveness. We likewise are not discharged from the effects of sin even though Jesus has already paid the ultimate price and opened the gates of heaven.

I have alot of questions. thanks for listening . SS

Questions are good; Fr. Corapi has said that “a thousand questions do not equal one doubt”. It is a very deep and rewarding faith; take one question at a time. I’ll pray for you.

 

[Ruthie]

Mesl4 asked,

Also, why did Jesus not open the door to the Gentiles before he ascended?

He did, in Jn 10:14-16, when He says “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, 15 as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” (RSV)

The only reason I’m eaven considering this Church is because of the possiblity of what if Jesus really did want a heirarchy governmental church type system here, an the RC church really is it. Than, I will make the best of it and try to obey and fall in love with it for Christ’s sake…and my own.

Have you heard this saying? “the Old Testament is revealed in the New, and the New is concealed in the Old.” In Exodus, God set up a hierarchical system. Jesus’ church, founded on Peter, is the revelation of the old one.

In my church/experience, we say that if someone turns away, they never really had the faith that saves to begin with.

This is untrue. It does not allow for mistakes. We humans are no more capable of perfect faith than we are of any other perfection.

It is also not Biblical. Think about the parable of the Prodigal Son: his father never gave up on him. Think about Peter, who denied the Lord three times.

Then there’s this:

I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Rev 2:3-5 (RSV)

It is not the sin that removes the lampstand, but the failure to repent.

Hope this helps, and God bless you!

Ruthie