Which is worse for a Muslim Congressman?

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They take an oath and swear by its contents that they will faithfully fullfill the office of which they are to enter. The contents of the Koran is in direct contradiction of our rights. I can not put it more simply than this.

“…that they are endowded by their Creator with certain inalienable rights and amonst them are life, liberty and the persuit of happiness” are not metophorical words. They mean something and stand for something. The Koran subjugates these rights under Sharia Law. Rights are not part of the Koran plain and simple.
Uh, so does the book of Leviticus. You’re supposed to stone idolators, remember? The Old Testament as a whole isn’t particularly big on this ‘rights’ idea. How about you respond to the point I made in my previous post instead of throwing up ‘but the Quran says…!’ again?

Also, you just quoted the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. The Declaration’s nice, and in my opinion at least embodies the spirit of the law, but it is not the law.
 
Fact is the United States has freedom of religion and Muslim countries don’t. That isn’t too difficult to understand, is it? Our country and it’s culture and it’s system of government derive from Judeo-Christian tradition, not Muslim.

As an aside–brilliant work by whoever in getting a Koran from
Thomas Jefferson’s library to use by Ellison in his backhand slap at our country.
 
I think it would be best for this man to do what JFK promised before being elected to office. Many at the time felt the Catholic faith would prevent JFK from upholding the constitution, and that we would be a puppet government for the Pope. JFK said that if his duty and his faith ever conflicted, he would resign.

That is all that this man should or should need to say, if they are in conflict, I will quit my job. For who would want a man at the job if he held his job above his faith?

We as Catholics were in this situation not too long ago.

A lone Raven
 
People who are sworn into office with a hand on the bible are not pledging to make pork illegal, stone kids who talk back to their parents, stone people caught in adultery, kill ‘idolators’ (ie, people of any other faith – oops, so much for freedom of religion!), illegalize fabric of mixed fibers, etc.
No, fortunately not as yet. But I have to look at examples both in Canada and Great Britain where the Muslim populations are clamering for Sharia law to try their own people. This is a stepping stone of sorts to what I am trying to convey here with my posts. If and when Sharia law becomes a norm for trying Muslims in non-Muslim lands can it be far behind in it affecting the non-Muslim populations because there will be an imbalance of justice as seen through Muslim clerics and lawyers.
 
No, fortunately not as yet. But I have to look at examples both in Canada and Great Britain where the Muslim populations are clamering for Sharia law to try their own people. This is a stepping stone of sorts to what I am trying to convey here with my posts. If and when Sharia law becomes a norm for trying Muslims in non-Muslim lands can it be far behind in it affecting the non-Muslim populations because there will be an imbalance of justice as seen through Muslim clerics and lawyers.
I was talking about Christians. The laws I mentioned are in your holy book.
 
Mirdath,

Perhaps you are unaware of the inherent change in status of the Old Testament that occured upon the death and resurrection of Jesus. The very purpose of the OT was to reveal the perfection of God, his love for His people, the fact that man is good, but fallen, and the need of man for a redeemer. The Mosaic laws of Leviticus are explicitly revoked in catholic teachings since the New Covenant of Christ made those disciplinary (not moral) teachings superfluous. I suspect you know this.

I suspect you ALSO know that Islam has NO dramatic tipping point where Allah directly intervenes in history and repudiates the harsh early muslim treatment of non-muslims. Worse yet, Islam doesn’t seem to have any authority structure in which any such repudiation ever CAN come forth. What would happen to a muslim cleric who proposed the idea that ALL peoples be allowed to practice their religious beliefs within the boundaries of human rights with no state interference or persecution? I suspect some nasty fatwas would result.

I personally have no problem with a muslim being a congressman, but I DO think it reasonable for constituents to ask the man hard questions about how he will handle situations in which his faith conflicts with his duties. “how would you have voted regarding the Afghanistan war to oust the Taliban?” And similar questions.
 
Either way, he is horrible for our country. His being elected just proves that more votes is not better than quality votes.
Why is he horrible? And your second remark is a criticism of democracy as a whole. Quality votes presumably mean votes you agree with.

Criticizing democracy is not a bad thing, necessarily. It does have its flaws.

Edwin
 
They take an oath and swear by its contents that they will faithfully fullfill the office of which they are to enter. The contents of the Koran is in direct contradiction of our rights. I can not put it more simply than this.

“…that they are endowded by their Creator with certain inalienable rights and amonst them are life, liberty and the persuit of happiness” are not metophorical words. They mean something and stand for something. The Koran subjugates these rights under Sharia Law. Rights are not part of the Koran plain and simple.

My dear friends, contained within the Constitution are the seeds of its very own destruction. And if we, the caretakers, are not careful enough we will unfortunately experience the germination of these seeds all too soon.
A lot of people would say, as Mirdath said, that the same is true of the Bible.

You say it isn’t–that is to say, you interpret the Bible in such a manner that it doesn’t contradict the Constitution. The relevant question is whether Muslims interpret the Qur’an in such a way as to contradict the Constitution or not. If they swear to uphold the Constitution, and swear on the Qur’an, then they are professing that they do in fact believe that the two are compatible. Whether they are right or not is irrelevant. It is not our job as non-Muslims to tell Muslims what the Qur’an says (any more than you or I would let Mirdath tell us what the Bible says). If Congressman Ellison violates his oath to uphold the Constitution, then he will answer to the American people. If he violates his duties as a Muslim, he will answer to the Muslim community. That’s what disestablishment and free exercise (or “separation of church and state” rightly understood) mean.

Edwin
 
Mirdath,

Perhaps you are unaware of the inherent change in status of the Old Testament that occured upon the death and resurrection of Jesus. The very purpose of the OT was to reveal the perfection of God, his love for His people, the fact that man is good, but fallen, and the need of man for a redeemer. The Mosaic laws of Leviticus are explicitly revoked in catholic teachings since the New Covenant of Christ made those disciplinary (not moral) teachings superfluous. I suspect you know this.

I suspect you ALSO know that Islam has NO dramatic tipping point where Allah directly intervenes in history and repudiates the harsh early muslim treatment of non-muslims.
So, since Judaism also doesn’t have this “tipping point,” Jews in Congress are also a bad thing? There were 11 in the Senate and 26 in the 109th Congress and 2 in the Supreme Court.
 
I was listening to a radio talk show today and the guy was discussing the Keith Elison issue. You know, the newly elected Representative who happens to be a Muslim.

And he made an interesting point, and I would like to come at it from a “being true to yourself” angle.

He was saying that there are Muslim Imams who teach that if a Muslim were to try to uphold the U.S. Constitution then they would cease to be a Muslim. I guess we would compare it to a latae sententiae excommunication.

But in order to be a Congressman, he should theoretically make an effort touphold the Constitution.

So IF there it is true that Muslim should not be pro-US Constitution
and IF it is true that a Congressman should uphold the Constitution…

Then which is worse…


**Congressman Elison is a poor Muslim, and rejects his faith in his personal life **

Or, Congressman Elison is a poor Congressman?

I’m not saying either way, I’m just setting it forth for discussion. You could put yourself in his shoes as a Catholic, Protestant, Jehovah Witness, whatever your faith may be and consider the question.
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It would appear that Congressman Elison will practice his religion as many christains do while in the political arena.

Islam as Ideology
That Islam sees itself as a theocracy has enormous ramifications for how it regards itself and for the behavior of Muslims.

First,
it means that Islam is not only a religion. It is also a political ideology. If the government of the Muslim community simply is God’s government, then no other governments can be legitimate. They are all at war with God. As a result, Muslims have typically divided the world into two spheres, known as the Dar al-Islam—the “house of Islam” or “house of submission” to God—and the Dar al-Harb, or “house of war”—those who are at war with God.

Second, it means that Muslims have believed themselves to have a “manifest destiny.” Since God must win in the end, the Dar al-Harb must be brought under the control of Muslim government and made part of the Dar al-Islam.

Third,
since the Dar al-Harb by its nature is at war with God, it is unlikely that it will submit to God without a fight. Individual groups might be convinced to lay down their arms and join the Muslim community by various forms of pressure—economic or military—that fall short of war. In history some groups have become Muslim in this way, either fearing Muslim conquest, desiring Muslim military aid against their own enemies, or aspiring to good trade relations with the Muslim world. But many peoples would rather fight than switch. This has been particularly true of Christians, who have put up more resistance to the Muslim advance than have pagan and animistic tribes.

Because of the need to expand God’s dominion by wars of conquest, Islam’s ideology imposes on Muslims the duty to fight for God’s community. This duty is known as *jihad *(Arabic, “struggle, fight”). Although it is binding on all Muslims, it has been particularly incumbent on those on the edges of the Muslim world, where there was room for expansion. Only by continual jihad could the manifest destiny of Islam to bring the world into submission to God be fulfilled.

As eminent French sociologist Jacques Ellul notes, "Jihad is a religious obligation. It forms **part of the duties that the believer must fulfill; **it is Islam’s normal path to expansion."

A fourth and final consequence of Islam’s view of itself as a theocracy is that **in theory all Muslims should not only form one religious community **but should be subject to one government as well—God’s government, a kind of Muslim superstate. Yet this has not happened. Muslims have been ruled by different governments since the early days of Islam.
catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp
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It was on GMA this morning. I’ll see if I can find a link.
Thanks. I fail to see how using an historical copy of the Koran that is part of the collection of the US Congressional library and originally owned by one of our early Presidents is a “backhand slap at our country.”
 
They take an oath and swear by its contents that they will faithfully fullfill the office of which they are to enter. The contents of the Koran is in direct contradiction of our rights. I can not put it more simply than this.

“…that they are endowded by their Creator with certain inalienable rights and amonst them are life, liberty and the persuit of happiness” are not metophorical words. They mean something and stand for something. The Koran subjugates these rights under Sharia Law. Rights are not part of the Koran plain and simple.

**My dear friends, contained within the Constitution are the seeds of its very own destruction. And if we, the caretakers, are not careful enough we will unfortunately experience the germination of these seeds all too soon./**quote]

:yup: !
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Contarini and KarenNC said a good deal of what I would have; but, since you addressed me, here you go 🙂
Mirdath,

Perhaps you are unaware of the inherent change in status of the Old Testament that occured upon the death and resurrection of Jesus. The very purpose of the OT was to reveal the perfection of God, his love for His people, the fact that man is good, but fallen, and the need of man for a redeemer. The Mosaic laws of Leviticus are explicitly revoked in catholic teachings since the New Covenant of Christ made those disciplinary (not moral) teachings superfluous. I suspect you know this.
I do know that, and I believe I’ve had to point that out to some people on these very forums. Many Christians and even some Catholics do not – they selectively preach OT law where it suits their desires, particularly when railing against homosexuality. And as KarenNC said, where does this leave the many Jews in Congress? They haven’t called for any stonings that I’m aware of.
I suspect you ALSO know that Islam has NO dramatic tipping point where Allah directly intervenes in history and repudiates the harsh early muslim treatment of non-muslims. Worse yet, Islam doesn’t seem to have any authority structure in which any such repudiation ever CAN come forth. What would happen to a muslim cleric who proposed the idea that ALL peoples be allowed to practice their religious beliefs within the boundaries of human rights with no state interference or persecution? I suspect some nasty fatwas would result.
It has happened. It’s a few questions down – search for ‘Karen’, it’s the first question she asks on behalf of one Khalid. I haven’t heard of any fatwas being issued against Imam Arafat.

Sure, some imams may preach intolerance or even hatred. So do many Christian pastors – I need only name Fred Phelps. Would you rather have Mr Phelps in Congress than Imam Arafat? I think I would choose the latter.
I personally have no problem with a muslim being a congressman, but I DO think it reasonable for constituents to ask the man hard questions about how he will handle situations in which his faith conflicts with his duties. “how would you have voted regarding the Afghanistan war to oust the Taliban?” And similar questions.
That’s fine – as long as you’re okay with those same constituents asking their Christian representatives hard questions about how they would act in instances of their faiths conflicting with their duties. Particularly in cases where they are obviously trying to legislate morality – it does happen.
 
If we are concerned that lawmakers will be under pressure to follow the dictates of their religious leaders above the Constitution, frankly, I would be more worried about the 154 Catholics who were in the 2005/6 Congress than a lone Muslim.

The Roman Catholic Church very recently threatened to deny Communion to Catholic lawmakers who did not toe the Church line in working to enact the specifically Roman Catholic position (not even a generally agreed upon Christian position) on many issues into US law. This was done with no consideration for whether that position was in line with the will of the majority of the individual lawmaker’s constituents (whom they were elected to represent, not to represent the Catholic Church) or not.
newrules.org/voice2004/askdave/16askdave.html

Are we to assume that this is less of an issue because Catholics assign less importance to the Eucharist than Muslims will to Muslim teachings? I don’t think so. Should we vote against candidates simply because they are Catholics based on this effort? Should we not rather judge a Catholic candidate on his or her actions and stated positions on all the issues just as we would any other candidate?

Either we have protection of religious freedom for all religions in this country or we will have them for none but a single interpretation of a single religion. I am surprised to hear such vocal support for what amounts to a Christian theocracy (when it is not at all clear that it would be one charitable toward Catholics). Roman Catholics have suffered under such situations before (does Oliver Cromwell ring a bell?).
 
Karen,

Who do you think is promoting a theocracy, and how? I have not heard any such thing on this thread.

If you think the objections to Congressman Ellison amount to a theocracy, then I won’t argue the point, though even there I think the term is un-called-for. Certainly the objections being raised to his election violate the principles of religious freedom foundin the Constitution.

However, if you’re talking about the RCC’s efforts to ensure Eucharistic discipline within their own community, even when the offenders are powerful politicians, then there’s nothing theocratic about this at all. The politicians in question have every freedom to leave the RCC and go their own way. But if they want to be members of a particular community, they need to be willing to abide by its norms. Catholic politicians in this country want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to vote like secularists and still gain political advantage from their religious affiliation.

People’s religion–whatever that religion is–ought to affect how they vote. You’re absolutely right to point out the double standard in Catholics who object to Congressman Ellison. But I see no theocracy in sight–just a democratic country where one religion is in a huge majority. The answer to the problems presented by this situation is to insist on the rights of the minorities rather than trying to muzzle the majority.

Edwin
 
Who do you think is promoting a theocracy, and how? I have not heard any such thing on this thread.

Edwin, you are right and right to call me on it. I have been posting on a number of threads over the past few days, and I may well have let attitudes and opinions expressed on some of those (as well as ones I hear frequently IRL lately) spill over into this thread. I apologize.

** You’re absolutely right to point out the double standard in Catholics who object to Congressman Ellison. But I see no theocracy in sight–just a democratic country where one religion is in a huge majority. The answer to the problems presented by this situation is to insist on the rights of the minorities rather than trying to muzzle the majority.**

You make my point much more lucidly than I was able to today. Thanks and I agree with you.
 
the specifically Roman Catholic position (not even a generally agreed upon Christian position)
The above poster has answered the question of why Catholic politians are expected to vote “Catholically” very well, and so I will not labor the point. However, I wish to merely clarify that the Catholic position absolutely IS the generally agreed upon Christian position, as the majority of Christians (1.2 billion out of a world-wide total of roughly 2 billion Christians) are Catholic.
 
Karen,

Great question. I would NOT have similar concerns about Jews in congress because although their treatment of the OT is as you point out, Judaism does not have any sort of the RECENT track record for violence and subjugation that Islam does. (I’m aware that we could veer into a HUGE tangent on Zionism here, but let’s not. Even if you think the existence of Israel today is horrible, its not really all that relevant to USA legislators compared to the problems the Islamism is likely to be for the US in the upcoming decades.)

If, on the other hand, we were currently 5 years out from JEWISH terrorists blowing up American skyscrapers, bombing US embassies and so forth and were there substantial communities of Jews around the world chanting “Death to America” then maybe we’d have to ask some tougher questions.

In other words, it’s not JUST the troubling aspects of the teachings in the Koran. It is that PLUS world current events PLUS the lack of coherent authority within Islam to interpret the Koran.

As I said, one muslim congressman is nothing to be alarmed about. Concerned and interested, yes. And be honest, if somehow we were looking at a muslim president and muslim majority in Congress you wouldn’t be a mite bit concerned? If yes, then why not be foresighted and ask the tough questions now instead of putting them off?

P.S. Thanks for the link to the imam with the voice of sanity and reason. Here’s to hope!
 
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