Which Nativity Stories *Really* Happened?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Neil_Anthony
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The authority of the magisterium is exercised only by bishops teaching in union with the pope. Scholars may advise them and suggest answers, but they speak with no magisterial authority.
The imprimatur and nihil obstat represent approval by members of the magesterium. That may not be quite the same as speaking with magesterial, authority but it’s close. And, in the case of the *Instruction Concerning the Historical Truth of the Gospels, *we have a direct statement of approval by the Pope.
It is certainly not true that the Church requires belief in their view.
I never said that the church requires belief in their view - I have always said that the Church does not require belief in any particular view.
 
My view is the Church’s view as expressed in the Catechism.
The Catechism does not discuss what one must believe concerning the infancy narratives.
I am not sure there are a large amount of scripture scholars who hold that the Nativity stories are fiction. Please site these scholars with the authority of the magesterium that do.
I have, several times.
Why aren’t they mentioned in the Catechism?
The Catechism does not discuss what one must believe concerning the infancy narratives.
 
You want answers to your three questions? Read The Birth of the Messiah by Raymond Brown S.S., read the 3 volumes of *A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus *by John Meier, read the The Biblical Commission’s Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels.
The book by Raymond Brown seems to be out of print, do you know if there’s a different one I should get? Is Meier a catholic theologian, and does his book have an imprimateur?

The part of The Biblical Commission’s Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels that stands out to me the most is this:
V. As occasion warrants, the interpreter may examine what reasonable elements are contained in the “Form-Critical method” that can be used for a fuller understanding of the Gospels. But let him be wary, because scarcely admissible philosophical and theological principles have often come to be mixed with this method, which not uncommonly have vitiated the method itself as well as the conclusions in the literary area. For some proponents of this method have been led astray by the prejudiced views of rationalism. They refuse to admit the existence of a supernatural order and the intervention of a personal God in the world through strict revelation, and the possibility and existence of miracles and prophecies. Others begin with a false idea of faith, as if it had nothing to do with historical truth–or rather were incompatible with it. Others deny the historical value and nature of the documents of revelation almost a priori. Finally, others make light of the authority of the apostles as witnesses to Christ, and of their task and influence in the primitive community, extolling rather the creative power of that community. All such views are not only opposed to Catholic doctrine, but are also devoid of scientific basis and alien to the correct principles of historical method.
 
The book by Raymond Brown seems to be out of print, do you know if there’s a different one I should get?
Amazon.com has it (as does my library). It has an *imprimatur *and nihil obstat.
Is Meier a catholic theologian, and does his book have an imprimateur?
Here is what I know about him: a Biblical scholar and Catholic priest. He attended St. Joseph’s Seminary and College (B.A., 1964), Gregorian University [Rome] (S.T.L, 1968), and the Biblical Institute [Rome] (S.S.D., 1976). He was editor of The Catholic Biblical Quarterly and president of the Catholic Biblical Association. Meier is Professor of New Testament in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. Before coming to Notre Dame, he was Professor at The Catholic University of America.

Yes, his books contain an imprimatur (at least the ones I reference do).
 
Amazon.com has it (as does my library). It has an *imprimatur *and nihil obstat.

Here is what I know about him: a Biblical scholar and Catholic priest. He attended St. Joseph’s Seminary and College (B.A., 1964), Gregorian University [Rome] (S.T.L, 1968), and the Biblical Institute [Rome] (S.S.D., 1976). He was editor of The Catholic Biblical Quarterly and president of the Catholic Biblical Association. Meier is Professor of New Testament in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. Before coming to Notre Dame, he was Professor at The Catholic University of America.

Yes, his books contain an imprimatur (at least the ones I reference do).
An Imprimatur or Nihil Obstat does not endorse or agree with what is printed, only that it does not contradict the Catholic faith.
 
Amazon.com has it (as does my library). It has an *imprimatur *and nihil obstat.
The links on Amazon go to other vendors who have used ones for sale… I ordered one of those and they said they don’t have it any more. The ones who do have it are charging ridiculous prices… must be out of print 😦
 
The Catechism does not discuss what one must believe concerning the infancy narratives.

The Catechism does not discuss what one must believe concerning the infancy narratives.
The Catechism
a) The catechism is an instrument, a means for catechesis, an ecclesial activity which is multifaceted and complex. It involves, in fact, different and complementary elements: the catechist, those to whom the catechesis is directed, the contents, the methods, the means, the sociocultural-ecclesial contexts …
In order to catechese you must teach what is believed. 525 - 535 states what the Church teaches. The Catechism is a statement of what is believed otherwise it would have no purpose.
 
You might consider it incomplete but as can be seen is correct.

Sorry but you have not cited a thing to prove that.

How come you omitted

**I omitted a fair amount or I’d have posted the entire thing. I assume there is enough there to cause folks to go and read it in full. You obviously now have and thats a good thing. you still miss the point apparently. **

There is nothing here that says the Bible is not EVER to be literal. If that were true, Jesus’ resurrection would be denied which in some quarters this type of thinking does exist.
Not all who believe that something really took place is a fundamentalist. That is a misreading of the Bible Commission. There are a few fundamentalist that post here and none are Catholic.
And no one has ever said that nothing in the bible should be taken literally. You really should try to go and read some stuff about fundamentalism. You are incorrect in your statement. there are a number of fundamentalist catholics here.
SpiritMao,

**What is SpiritMao supposed to mean? Just a nasty remark? **

Your diatribe against a mythical liberal boogeyman, “Catholic Fundementalists”, won’t obscure the facts here:

I was correcting a poster who made certain claims about a document that were inaccurate. I simply set the record straight.
  1. You have no evidence that the Nativity is historically inaccurate, as written.
Never said I did
2. You have no evidence that the Nativity accounts were written as fiction, or understood as fiction when they were written.
Never said I did
3. You have no evidence that the Vatican views the Nativity specifically as fiction, or even as an elaborated on otherwise truthful account.

Never said I did.

Please stick to the topic at hand, and the facts.
I have, please read more carefully in the future.
 
Amazon.com has it (as does my library). It has an *imprimatur *and nihil obstat.

Here is what I know about him: a Biblical scholar and Catholic priest. He attended St. Joseph’s Seminary and College (B.A., 1964), Gregorian University [Rome] (S.T.L, 1968), and the Biblical Institute [Rome] (S.S.D., 1976). He was editor of The Catholic Biblical Quarterly and president of the Catholic Biblical Association. Meier is Professor of New Testament in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. Before coming to Notre Dame, he was Professor at The Catholic University of America.

Yes, his books contain an imprimatur (at least the ones I reference do).
Indeed my copies of Meier’s books carry an imprimatur. Additionally these are published by the Anchor series, which is fairly renowned for its biblical exegetical expertise.
 
And no one has ever said that nothing in the bible should be taken literally. You really should try to go and read some stuff about fundamentalism. You are incorrect in your statement. there are a number of fundamentalist catholics here.

.
Than you haven’t read the catechism.
I. The Historical and Transcendent Event
639
The mystery of Christ’s resurrection** is a real event, with manifestations that were historically verified**
, as the New Testament bears witness. In about A.D. 56, St. Paul could already write to the Corinthians: "I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve . . ."491 Apostle speaks here of the living tradition of the Resurrection which he had learned after his conversion at the gates of Damascus.492
  1. The life and teaching of Jesus. The Church holds firmly that the four Gospels, “whose historicity she unhesitatingly affirms, faithfully hand on what Jesus, the Son of God, while he lived among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation, until the day when he was taken up.
It is because you have your own definition of fundamentalism that you label everyone who disagrees with you as fundamentalist.
 
Than you haven’t read the catechism.

**The catechism says that nothing in the bible should be taken literally? My…I’ve never seen that. **

It is because you have your own definition of fundamentalism that you label everyone who disagrees with you as fundamentalist.
No I don’t have my own. You define fundamentalists as those who believe in sola scriptura apparently. It has nothing to do with that, though proponents do claim complete and total inerrency as to their scripture. This is true of fundamentalist Muslims and Jews as well. It is adherence to scripture or any doctrine or dogma as being literally written and to be received for all time as written. I’ve given you some sites where you can read from authors on your own…obviously you wish to make up your own definition instead.
 
No I don’t have my own. You define fundamentalists as those who believe in sola scriptura apparently. It has nothing to do with that, though proponents do claim complete and total inerrency as to their scripture. This is true of fundamentalist Muslims and Jews as well. It is adherence to scripture or any doctrine or dogma as being literally written and to be received for all time as written. I’ve given you some sites where you can read from authors on your own…obviously you wish to make up your own definition instead.
Obviously you have no idea what I believe even though I have stated it. The Commission is the one that defined fundamentalist as sola scripture. You wish to ignore that to better fit people into your misunderstanding of what fundamentalist are. It is more than the belief in the Bible as being literally written. It is this more that you fail to recognise. You fail to grasp that there are places in the Bible that are literal. Jesus did rise that is a fact. What Jesus said and did is what the Bible said He did. He is not myth. You fail to understand that the Bible is written in many forms including facts, things that really happened. It is not history as we understand history today and that was not the purpose. If you don’t believe in a literal Curcifiction and Resurrection than it make Jesus false. No one has disputed what the Catechism says. They have tried to make the Catechism inconsquential while raising others to infalibility that the Natvity didn’t happen that it was just a myth but they can’t back it up with Church teaching because the Chruch teaching is the Catechism and it says differently. There are many different types of Scripture including Sacred Myth but that does not mean that the entire Bible is written in the same way.
 
The Catechism
In order to catechese you must teach what is believed. 525 - 535 states what the Church teaches. The Catechism is a statement of what is believed otherwise it would have no purpose.
There is a reason it is titled "The Christmas mystery’ - no one knows what really happened. There is also no mention of most of the events in Luke and Matthew’s narratives and there is no indication that the events which are mentioned are to be considered literally or symbolically. It is obviously fine for a high-level look at what Catholics believe but an in-depth understanding requires study of the source documents behind the Catechism.

I know what the church teaches and I have helped teach it for many years - it is important to go beyond the catechism if you are really interested in this.
 
…the Evangelists, in passing on the words and deeds of our Saviour, explained these now in one context, now in another, depending on (their) usefulness to the readers. Consequently, let the exegete seek out the meaning intended by the Evangelist in narrating a saying or a deed in a certain way or in placing it in a certain context. For the truth of the story is not at all affected by the fact that the Evangelists relate the words and deeds of the Lord in a different order, and express his sayings not literally but differently, while preserving (their) sense.
Here the PBC is discussing the “Order of Treatment”, and they have cited Augustine who says that “we are not at liberty either to suppose or to say that any one of the evangelists has stated what is false” and “we should also understand that it is not so much in mere words, as rather truth in the facts themselves, that is to be sought and embraced; for as to writers who do not employ precisely the same modes of statement, if they only do not present discrepancies with respect to the facts and the sentiments themselves, we accept them as holding the same position in veracity” (Harm. Gosp. Bk 2, Ch. 12, 28). The PBC had just stated that the Gospel authors had not always reported the words of Jesus, “literally, but in a variety of ways, while retaining the same meaning.” From this we understand that as we come upon sayings of Jesus, such as “Blessed are the poor” in Luke, and “Blessed are the poor in spirit” in Matthew, there can be discussion concerning whether Jesus precisely said either the one or the other – in the case where we take these words as relating the same historical saying – or whether He said both on separate occasions. But what cannot be denied is that Jesus actually spoke words that carry the same meaning as what was written by both authors. This is what the PBC means by “preserving (their) sense” or “retaining the same meaning”. If these two statements, the one by Luke and the other by Matthew, are meant to convey the meaning of a single saying of our Lord, one can see that the richness of Jesus’ words was better preserved and more fully captured in two complimentary ways: Matthew emphasizing a particular depth of meaning with explicitness, Luke emphasizing the breadth with implicitness.

I don’t think that it is an exercise faithful to what the Church teaches to extrapolate from the assertion of a nonliteral recording of Jesus’ words to the assertion that an entire segment of Jesus’ life is therefore reducible to teaching a general transcendental, historical truth, while including elements both factual and imaginative. The PBC seems to have weighed against this when condemning a book wherein the author tries to introduce “a type of literature consisting of popular traditions mingling falsehood with truth” and thereby, “at least implicitly, denies the dogma of biblical inspiration and inerrancy” (1934). Dei Verbum proclaims that “Holy Mother Church has firmly and with absolute constancy held, and continues to hold, that the four Gospels just named, whose historical character the Church unhesitatingly asserts, faithfully hand on what Jesus Christ, while living among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation until the day He was taken up into heaven (see Acts 1:1)” (19). With the historical character, or better, historicity, of the Gospels being asserted, it does not seem that exegetes are at liberty to pick and choose which events being narrated are factually true and which are not.

I am sorry for those for whom the following quote is a repeat from me, but “To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you” (Phil 3:1). For “The Christian faith has its specificity, primarily in that it refers to historical events, or better to a coherent history, which actually took place as history. In this sense, the question about the fact, the reality of the event, is essential to it, and must make room for the historical method. But these historical events have meaning for the faith only because it is certain that in them God Himself acted in a specific way and the events contain something which surpasses simple historical facticity, something which comes from elsewhere and gives them meaning for all times and for all people. This surpassing element must not be separated from the facts, it is not a meaning which is subsequently added to them from without, but rather it is present in the event itself, and yet it transcends the purely factual aspect” (Current Doctrinal Relevance of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2002).

The LORD bless you and keep you!
 
Luke precedes his entire Gospel with indication that he is about to present a “narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us” (Luke 1:1), i.e., history. And I found the following insight into Matthew’s use of pre-New Testament prophecies very helpful:

“The concept that the gospels are making up stories to fulfill Old Testament prophecies or themes is likewise dubious. Rather than making up stories to align with Old Testament passages, Matthew has so much difficulty finding an Old Testament parallel for Jesus’ living in Nazareth that he appeals to a general theme of the prophets (plural) rather than citing a specific Old Testament text (Matthew 2:23). We have no evidence of Jews prior to Matthew’s time expecting the Messiah to come from Egypt in fulfillment of Hosea 11:1. Yet, Matthew cites the passage (Matthew 2:15). It seems, then, that Matthew was looking for Old Testament passages relevant to recent events rather than making up stories to align with Messianic expectations. Instead of the Old Testament shaping Matthew’s account of Jesus’ early life, the historical information Matthew had concerning Jesus’ early life shaped his use of the Old Testament. R.T. France comments that ‘there is no indication that either [Jeremiah 31:15 or Hosea 11:1] was interpreted Messianically at the time; and the ‘quotation’ in Matthew 2:23 does not appear in the Old Testament at all…In fact the aim of the formula-quotations in chapter 2 [of Matthew] seems to be primarily apologetic, explaining some of the unexpected features in Jesus’ background, particularly his geographical origins. It would be a strange apologetic which invented ‘facts’ in order to defend them!’ (Matthew [Grand Rapids, Michigan: InterVarsity Press, 1999], p. 71)” (taken from triablogue.blogspot.com/2006/11/were-infancy-narratives-meant-to.html).

I also recommend reading the following analysis of this topic: rtforum.org/lt/lt86.html.

“And if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained” (Phil 3:15-16).
 
Note Luke 1:65-66
And fear came on all their neighbors. And all these things were talked about through all the hill country of Judea; 66 and all who heard them laid them up in their hearts, saying, “What then will this child be?” For the hand of the Lord was with him.
The Gospels were not written in secret; they were peer reviewed. Some of the people who laid these events up in their hearts were there to read the Gospels. They would have commented if things were changed or added.
 
There is a reason it is titled "The Christmas mystery’ - no one knows what really happened.
That’s not what “mystery” means here. It doesn’t mean we don’t know the bare facts surrounding the event. It’s a Catholic theological term.
 
There is a reason it is titled "The Christmas mystery’ - no one knows what really happened. There is also no mention of most of the events in Luke and Matthew’s narratives and there is no indication that the events which are mentioned are to be considered literally or symbolically. It is obviously fine for a high-level look at what Catholics believe but an in-depth understanding requires study of the source documents behind the Catechism.

I know what the church teaches and I have helped teach it for many years - it is important to go beyond the catechism if you are really interested in this.
The Catholic Church grows in understanding organically. It does not prune back the truth to fit modern sensibilities. Rather when we speak of higher criticism the intent is to provide a richer understanding of Gospel passages, the practice however, has been to destroy.
 
Thank you so much for pointing out that not all the intellectuals and theologians are behind the kind of interpretation that would make the Gospels into imaginary legends… it’s such a relief.
👍
Luke precedes his entire Gospel with indication that he is about to present a “narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us” (Luke 1:1), i.e., history. And I found the following insight into Matthew’s use of pre-New Testament prophecies very helpful:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top