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Serap
Guest
100% agree!!!
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CMatt25
Guest
Exodus 21:22-25 gives an example where the penalty for the loss of a fetus was less that it was for the loss of the mother.
As Serap said I can see both sides and things are not so black and white to me. And as JohnnyR said when only one can be saved it is a painful and difficult choice.
I respect that pain and difficulty and agony a women (or if incapacitated and unable to do so, whoever it is who has to make the call) goes thru in having to make such a choice. I do not walk in another’s shoes. So I will not judge those who might choose differently than Serap would.
God bless and peace.
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JRRTFAN
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Whoa Hoss! Where did I say anybody was a murderer? I asked about a hierarchy of human life. Let’s run with the string and not create a straw man, OK?
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JRRTFAN
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I’d be careful with the Exodus verses. The science of enbryoliogy was non existent at the time and the pericope is talking about an accidental injury not a deliberate therapeutic abortion. That’s a real tenuous application of the concept conveyed in the verses.
And don’t think I can’t see both sides. It would be an horriffic situation to be in, it is also extremely rare.
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CMatt25
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Ok but here’s a piece of string I found
if you say what the Catholic Church did here. “The Sixth Ecumenical Council determined for the whole Church that anyone who procured abortion should bear all the punishments inflicted on murderers.” 
newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm
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JRRTFAN
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I don’t get your point. Are you or are you not trying to support a hierarchy of human worth determined by stage of development? If not, fine. If so, does the hierarchy work on both ends of the life cycle, e.g., a 23 year old athletic Ph.D candidate is worth more or less than a 90 year old infirm illiterate in a nursing home?Ok but here’s a piece of string I found
newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm
I’m just asking for a quantification of your thought process.
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CMatt25
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My only point there was you said, “Whoa Hoss! Where did I say anybody was a murderer?” And I merely pointed out an example where the Church equated abortion to murder at least from the way the wording sounded to me when I read it.
Further my only point in our earlier discussion was that I support the right for women (or if incapacitated and unable to make a decision, then whoever is in the position to immediately have to make such a decision if need be) to make according to their conscience a decision in a type of situation we discussed, no matter how rare. And if they so choose to reflect upon and consider the Exodus verses in making their decision, then they can do that. I’m not going to judge them uncareful or using tenuous application. As I simply do not walk in their shoes.
In regards to the 90 yr old who we know was viable and was also born a person. And though ensoulment can not be proven, by then with a soul according to our belief. I certainly don’t condone endng a 90 yr old’s life just for the sake of doing so because they’re 90 if that’s what you mean. But each case it would seem to me has to be weighed individually. If the 90 yr old is in such ill health and the family chooses not to prolong the inevitable with life support beyond keeping their loved one comfortable, then that is their choice to make. If you’re asking if the family should go further and pull a “Jack Kevorkian”, no. And my thought process in regard to this is stated in the first 2 sentences of this paragraph.
Hope that helps. These decisions as we agree, are quite difficult and painful. My only other point is I am not going to sit here and judge when I am not walking in the shoes of those faced with such situations. And I shall leave it at that. God bless!
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JohnnyReb
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I didn’t mean you, personally. I was speaking to a larger audience. Hope that clarifies things. Don’t accuse me of creating a strawman, thanks. Your defensive attitude shows I might have been onto something. Maybe not. I can’t read your mind.
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Adam95
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Every Baptist congregation I have been involved in or known has been avidly pro-life.
I think that the perception of Baptists as pro-choice may have come, in-part, from well-known politician and former presidential candidate Jesse Jackson. Jackson was pro-life until being pro-life was not well accepted in the ranks of the Democratic party. Jackson is a Baptist minister.
I think that the perception of Baptists as pro-choice may have come, in-part, from well-known politician and former presidential candidate Jesse Jackson. Jackson was pro-life until being pro-life was not well accepted in the ranks of the Democratic party. Jackson is a Baptist minister.
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Lovesa
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The WELS is pro-life! (That’s all.)
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hn160
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I think that the only Lutheran Church that isn’t pro-life is the ELCA.
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comrade1789
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Assembly of God is pro life, most evangelical-pentecostal groups are. Have to be careful though, most “pro-life” protestant groups are actually Prefer-Life, not Pro-Life. Prefer Life meaning they think abortion is acceptable in cases of rape or incest (The Salvation Army for example); as if a situation can determine if a human life has dignity and value, and is precious. Either it is a human life or it isn’t, either you value life or you don’t. Their error is deeper than mere situational ethics. Their error stems from a Calvinist view of the human person which permeates post-protestant nations, which is why post-protestant nations are by far more abortive than Catholic nations. Calvinists teach that mankind since the Fall is depraved, while Catholics teach that the Fall was a Fall from a state of grace, and that we are God’s creation and therefore inherently good, but the Fall broke something, that we are no longer in the original state of grace, so that we are not depraved, but deprived. Seeing man as depraved is a repeat of an old gnostic heresy that most famously manifested itself in Manichaeism. This idea of an utterly corrupt and depraved humanity has stained the collective memory of post-protestant cultures and has done much to make them (dare I use the term…) fertile for breeding the culture of death prevalant in all of them…and now in all the world. Error is a dangerous thing, it can have devastating consequences that roll on for centuries and ultimately into eternity.
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JRRTFAN
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A perfect answer! You will do well in P.R. with the upcoming campaign!
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Alix1912
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The ELCA is a lot more nebulous in their actual rules about abortion, but I would not say they are pro abortion, they generally condemn it, just not very strongly. The fact their health care plan allows it, therefore they are pro abortion is an unfair charge. MANY healthcare plans include this clause, often it has to be included so that a DNC can be performed after a miscarriage. Also in many states there aren’t healthcare plans that don’t include it. As a LCMS Lutheran I do believe the ELCA is way to soft on abortion, but at least judge them on their actualy stated doctrine, not a healthcare plan they may not have much of a choice on.
The LCMS only allows exceptions if the mother’s life is in danger, and the child cannot be saved anyway. Exp. A tubal pregnancy…the baby is not going to survive, and the mother has to have the fallopian tube removed or it could have life threatening consequences. Our church HIGHLY enocurages and supports trying to do everything medically possible to save both lives.
Barrier methods of contraception ARE NOT the same as abortion. Abortion is killing a living human. Barrier Methods lower the possibility of an egg and sperm meeting. There is a difference.
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hn160
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The ELCA health-care plan for their workers, lay and clergy provides for abortions.
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Alix1912
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Again, this may not be of their choosing. Most major healthcare carriers have this built into their plans. Most companies/organizations have less and less choice in the plans they can offer, chances are they may not have had much of a choice. Again judge them on their stated doctrine NOT a health care plan they may not have had much choice on. You will find that they are kinda against abortion, but their language is a little weak.The ELCA health-care plan for their workers, lay and clergy provides for abortions.
Side note, there are Catholic Organizations that don’t have a choice and have health care plans that permit abortions, because in the states they are in there aren’t other options availible.
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JRRTFAN
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The ELCA, just like all very large employers, is a self designed, self funded, employee benefit program. Whatever is in there is in there by choice and not a demand on the part of the insurer. A state may require a benefit plan to provide some benefit, although I don’t see how. The state can not demand that an employer provide health insurance. Which states, in your experience, requre employers to provide health insurance?
The states may not require healthcare plans, but they may have statutes that, when offered, must provide certain things. I don’t know if that is the case with Church groups, and frankly, under the first amendment, I’m not certain how they could require abortion coverage.
Jon
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hn160
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The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America maintains a pro-choice position for fetuses that are aborted before viability outside of the womb. The ELCA position statement says abortion should be an option of last resort, the ELCA community should work to reduce the need for elective abortions, and that as a community, “the number of induced abortions is a source of deep concern to this church. We mourn the loss of life that God has created.”[47][48] The ELCA Social Statement on Abortion adds: "The church recognizes that there can be sound reasons for ending a pregnancy through induced abortion. These are the threat to a woman’s physical life; when pregnancy has resulted from rape, incest or sexual violence; and fetal abnormalities incompatible with life.[1] The church opposes legal restrictions on abortion and provides health-care benefits to its employees that cover elective abortions. Some hospitals affiliated with the church perform elective abortions.[49]
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veilofveronica
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Many of the Evangelical and Pentecostal Churches I’ve known are Pro-Life.
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