Which Protestant Demoninations believe...

[jmcrae]

Not likely, Protestants DO believe Mary gave birth to Jesus as a Virgin. Which is an important Miracle.

Yes, but the title “Virgin” is only given to those who died in that state.

It is one thing to say that Mary was a virgin at the time of Christ’s birth, and quite another to bestow upon her the title “Virgin Mary.”

 

[rr1213]

…The year of origin of the Apostles’ Creed is unknown, but there is a legend that the 12 Apostles each contributed one line of it, which is why it is 12 lines long. In any case, it has been in use right from the very beginning.

I hadn’t heard that before, interesting. Where can we find this legend, I mean from what does it derive?

 

[Syele]

Yes, but the title “Virgin” is only given to those who died in that state.

It is one thing to say that Mary was a virgin at the time of Christ’s birth, and quite another to bestow upon her the title “Virgin Mary.”

I personally know at least 500 protestants who would not agree with that definition of the title Virgin. If you want protestants to start removing more of the creed, go right ahead and demand they stop calling Mary a Virgin.

 

[rico]

Not likely, Protestants DO believe Mary gave birth to Jesus as a Virgin. Which is an important Miracle.

I wasn’t really questioning their belief in Mary’s virginity. My point was that if they drop one line because they believe it to be “too Catholic,” what else are they free to drop? Pick any line of the Creed. If someone doesn’t like the sound of it, are they free to just drop it? Obviously, no.

 

[rico]

Yes, but the title “Virgin” is only given to those who died in that state.

It is one thing to say that Mary was a virgin at the time of Christ’s birth, and quite another to bestow upon her the title “Virgin Mary.”

I’m curious where you found that rule???

 

[here_i_stand]

I’m curious where you found that rule???

Me too…I hadn’t heard that before, but find it interesting.

 

[Syele]

I wasn’t really questioning their belief in Mary’s virginity. My point was that if they drop one line because they believe it to be “too Catholic,” what else are they free to drop? Pick any line of the Creed. If someone doesn’t like the sound of it, are they free to just drop it? Obviously, no.

What authority will stop them? Are they free to do it? yes. Are you free to get angry about it? yes. Can you stop them? no.

And I know quite a few Girls who would say they are virgins because they have not yet had sex and don’t plan to until their marriage. Who made the rule they are lying because they won’t be at death?

 

[THutch04]

I had always been around Episcopalians or Anglicans, and we rarely said the Apostle’s Creed. It was always the Nicene Creed, every Sunday, except when there was a Baptism or Confirmation. On those days, we would recite the Apostle’s Creed instead. It was actually quite amusing on those days, because people who never used the Book of Common Prayer to follow along would have to quickly try to find where the Apostle’s Creed was, because were weren’t used to saying it. Whenever we did recite it, we never substituted “Christian” for “Catholic.” It was just always assumed that we were referring to the body of Christian believers in general.

 

[jmcrae]

What authority will stop them? Are they free to do it? yes. Are you free to get angry about it? yes. Can you stop them? no.

And I know quite a few Girls who would say they are virgins because they have not yet had sex and don’t plan to until their marriage. Who made the rule they are lying because they won’t be at death?

If they die before they have sex, and if they are remembered as Saints, then they will be remembered by the Church as Virgins - the Virgin Philomena, the Virgin Jessica, and so on.

If Mary is not currently a virgin, then why call her “the Virgin Mary”? It doesn’t make any sense.

That “rule” was the rule of the Early Church when it divided the Saints between Martyrs and Virgins. Some Saints were Virgin Martyrs (thus, the Virgin Martyr Agnes) some were only martyrs but not virgins (thus, Justin Martyr, or the Martyr Ignatius) and Mary, not being a martyr, is referred to as “The Virgin Mary.”

 

[jmcrae]

I hadn’t heard that before, interesting. Where can we find this legend, I mean from what does it derive?

I first encountered it in RCIA when we were studying the Creed, and I have seen it mentioned in my spiritual reading, such as The Fathers of the Church by Mike Aquilina, and something of Scott Hahn’s which I can’t recall the name of.

But pretty much anywhere I have seen writing about the Creed, this legend is also mentioned along with it.

 

[Frost]

I was wondering which denominations recite the Creed in their church. By this I am really refering to the Apostle’s Creed, moreso than the Nicene. I think it’s pretty safe to say that all the Baptist branches don’t, right? I thought the Methodists did as well as the Episcopal/Anglicans? Are there any others? Thanks!

In my Lutheran church we recite it every sunday, although sometimes we recite the Nicene creed instead.

 

[Contarini]

Yes, but the title “Virgin” is only given to those who died in that state.

It is one thing to say that Mary was a virgin at the time of Christ’s birth, and quite another to bestow upon her the title “Virgin Mary.”

But the Creed explicitly says “born of the Virgin Mary.” It is clearly identifying Mary’s virginity with the time of Jesus’ birth. You’re out on a limb here.

Edwin

 

[rico]

But the Creed explicitly says “born of the Virgin Mary.” It is clearly identifying Mary’s virginity with the time of Jesus’ birth. You’re out on a limb here.

Edwin

Agreed. That sentence structure is common throughout languages. If you read something with a historical context, we usually use the title of the person at the time of the event. Take US presidents for example. You would write something like, “Secretary Schultz reported to President Reagan…” It actually happened 20+ years ago, Reagan is no longer President, and he didn’t die as President.

Assigning the title “Virgin” to canonized saints may be part of the Catholic Church’s protocol for canonization, but to make that connection with the line in the Apostle’s Creed is a leap.

 

[happygal]

We have the Apostle Creed during our communion day.

 

[jmcrae]

But the Creed explicitly says “born of the Virgin Mary.” It is clearly identifying Mary’s virginity with the time of Jesus’ birth. You’re out on a limb here.

Edwin

Not at all.

If I say, “The Virgin Agnes defeated the giant,” am I identifying her virginity with the time when she slew the giant, or am I identifying a person (the Virgin Agnes) who did something (slew a giant)?

The Virgin Mary (a person) gave birth to Jesus (did something).

Both Agnes and Mary received the title “Virgin” because they went to Heaven in the state of virginity.

 

[rr1213]

Not at all.

If I say, “The Virgin Agnes defeated the giant,” am I identifying her virginity with the time when she slew the giant, or am I identifying a person (the Virgin Agnes) who did something (slew a giant)?

The Virgin Mary (a person) gave birth to Jesus (did something).

Both Agnes and Mary received the title “Virgin” because they went to Heaven in the state of virginity.

But the reason that the Virgin Mary is blessed is that, as a virgin, she gave birth to our Lord. Not that she remained a virgin throughout her life. While the latter is also remarkable in some sense, it is not miraculous or unheard of.

 

[sterryfamily]

I was just wondering if your treatment of “denominations” in "Which Protestant Demoninations believe… " was a freudian slip?..

 

[jmcrae]

But the reason that the Virgin Mary is blessed is that, as a virgin, she gave birth to our Lord. Not that she remained a virgin throughout her life. While the latter is also remarkable in some sense, it is not miraculous or unheard of.

No, of course not - but to dedicate one’s entire life to God instead of to human marriage was considered virtuous in the Early Church (particularly for women, who battled great societal pressures in order to remain unmarried; some were even sold by their fathers to “husbands” without their consent, and chose to die for their virginity rather than consent to be sold), and people who did so (including people like Mary who were fortunate not to be pressured in that way) were remembered with the title “Virgin.”

Even today, we continue to value virginity in the celibate priesthood and in the monastic and conventual life.

 

[rr1213]

No, of course not - but to dedicate one’s entire life to God instead of to human marriage was considered virtuous in the Early Church (particularly for women, who battled great societal pressures in order to remain unmarried; some were even sold by their fathers to “husbands” without their consent, and chose to die for their virginity rather than consent to be sold), and people who did so (including people like Mary who were fortunate not to be pressured in that way) were remembered with the title “Virgin.”

Even today, we continue to value virginity in the celibate priesthood and in the monastic and conventual life.

Agreed, other than the assumption that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life.

 

[jmcrae]

Agreed, other than the assumption that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life.

That they remembered her with the title “Virgin” shows that they thought she did, though (and since ‘they’ were the people whom Protestants consider to be the “brothers of Christ” I should think that if they were, in fact, physical siblings of Christ, born of Mary, they would have known about that, and not given her the title Virgin.)