Which religion has done the most for Social Justice?

[stinkcat_14]

Let me clarify what I hear you saying:

The Christian who gives to the poor does so in hopes that he will be rewarded by escaping the punishment that he knows will come if he does not give.

The atheist who gives money to the poor does so without any reasonable expectation that doing so will benefit him personally at all.

I have to say that I know which person I would admire more in that sort of situation.

I am not talking about the motivation for giving, I am talking about the consequences for not giving. Two different things. A christian’s motivation for giving may be that they love God and want to serve him with all their heart. That is their ideal. Now, if they do not give to the poor, they are sinning and there are consequences.

The atheist gives to the poor for some other reason, which may be praiseworthy. But if they don’t give, what is the consequence to them personally, in their mind? Nothing.

 

[AndyF]

…not expect or depend on any deity to solve the problems humanity faces–it is up to us to clean up our own messes. Also such efforts aren’t done out of fear of divine punishment or in hope of divine reward. This is the world in which we live and the life we have—it is up to us to make of it the best possible one we can.

Assuming of course diety doesn’t have any expectations of his own. If he expects to be worshiped and recognized for what he gives, then it behooves everyone to have a contigency plan before the question is popped one day. One could assume hell doesn’t exist either, just one other jab for diety who hopes dire consequences may obtain conversions.

Having painted himself into a comfortable inaffected imagined cocoon, he could go on making a mochery of diety in this fashion.

Personally, applying his Russion Roulette reasoning through that reliable measuring device that is an atheist’s choice…logic, his attitude still doesn’t make sense.

AndyF

 

[Bennie_P]

Have you considered that you may not “see too many homeless shelters run by atheists or Buddhist” because those people are more concerned with the most efficient means of helping those in need? That they work within existing structures rather than feeling the need to create their own separate ones, greatly increasing overhead, bureaucracy, etc just so that they can be labeled with the name of their religion or organization? Or that you may simply not be looking in the right places?

In our area, the homeless shelters are run primarily by the government, not by any specific religious group.

and why they are waiting fot the most efficient way the persons who needs fed today may die if he waits on the perfect and most efficient ways and means for someone to help them.

As to your idea that Christians only do social justice works for fear of punishment goes to show that you have no understanding of Christianity. Though Christ admonished those that fail to do what is right, those that do, do so out of love, not fear of punishment.

I feel you need to do more research about the homeless, and those that work to help them. In most communities it is a network of faith based organizations working with government agencies and other organizations that help the homeless. Most homeless people will not approach a goverment organization without being lead there by someone they trust, for in many cases it was goverment programs that failed them, or they believe that failed them that got them in the situation they find themselves in.

 

[KarenNC]

and why they are waiting fot the most efficient way the persons who needs fed today may die if he waits on the perfect and most efficient ways and means for someone to help them.

You missed my meaning entirely. I said that you may not see Buddhist homeless shelters because those folks may be already working within the existing infrastructure, that they may find their efforts most efficiently used so rather than creating a separate “Buddhist” shelter with the attendant bureaucracy, overhead, etc just so everyone knows its Buddhist.

As to your idea that Christians only do social justice works for fear of punishment goes to show that you have no understanding of Christianity. Though Christ admonished those that fail to do what is right, those that do, do so out of love, not fear of punishment.

I think I have a fairly good understanding of Christianity, one that came from 30 years enmeshed in it in various forms. I don’t believe that Christians only do social justice out of fear any more than I believe that atheists don’t incur personal consequences if they do not act in accordance with their principles. I was reflecting back what I saw in what the poster stated (you may have noted the “let me clarify what I hear you saying” part of that post?).

Your position is the polar opposite of that put forward by the other poster (that the reason people engage in social justice is because of negative personal consequences imposed by a deity).

I feel you need to do more research about the homeless, and those that work to help them. In most communities it is a network of faith based organizations working with government agencies and other organizations that help the homeless. Most homeless people will not approach a goverment organization without being lead there by someone they trust, for in many cases it was goverment programs that failed them, or they believe that failed them that got them in the situation they find themselves in.

All social justice is a community effort, including those of all beliefs (or none). I have never suggested otherwise. Faith-based organizations have a role in that, but no one faith tradition has the monopoly on such.

 

[urban-hermit]

From a Social Justice perspective, it is irrelevant whether those who work for it begin to do so because they fear breaking God’s commandments, or because of a spontaneous love and compassion they feel.

Which basically means Christianity earns yet another point by motivating sinners like me who need to be threatened sometimes in order to do right.

Let’s see … atheism is ahead of Judaism in our scientific poll - what could that mean? … and isn’t anybody going to vote for poor old polytheism? It’s dead last in the poll, with a big fat zero!

 

[catharina]

Let’s see … atheism is ahead of Judaism in our scientific poll - what could that mean? … and isn’t anybody going to vote for poor old polytheism? It’s dead last in the poll, with a big fat zero!

Might mean there are more atheists voting than there are our Jewish brethern?
Maybe polytheists don’t have Internet?

 

[KarenNC]

Maybe polytheists don’t have Internet?

It isn’t quite so simple as you put forward.

There is no religion called “polytheism” any more than there is one called “monotheism”. There are people who follow a wide number (hundreds if not thousands) of specific polytheistic religions. I dcn’t think anyone on this board would be comfortable with asserting that Christianity and Islam are identical for the basis of this poll, for instance. Heck, I don’t see that most people on this board would be really comfortable with using the theology and actions of the Southern Baptists as exemplars of all Christianity.

Some of those people have internet access, as I obviously do. Some do not. Not everyone of them who has access to the internet is going to choose to be active in this forum at this particular time or concerned with this particular thread (so far I am the only one I know of right now).

To say “which religion does x --Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc or polytheism” is not a meaningful question as it is assuming as a baseline something that does not exist—that all polytheists share a common theology/worldview/way of interacting with society, etc. To be meaningful, one would need to either change it to “which group does x—monotheism or polytheism” (which highlights the problem that not all monotheistic religions are identical) or frame it in terms of a specific polytheistic religion. Then one can begin to define what one means by “social justice” and things like “if one group of the adherents of this religion engages in slavetrading and another group preaches abolition, how do you count it?” and “if they currently believe that x is a social justice issue but did not for 1900 years, how do you count it?”.

In the case of this polytheist, I am not particularly into polls, so I do not usually choose to vote in them. I am not arrogant enough to believe that my particular experiences, beliefs and religious community are necessarily representative of all polytheism–I know they are not. I have no vested interest in attempting to “prove” the validity or superiority of my faith by numbers of any kind . I from time to time choose to participate in the discussions related to polls in answer to points raised, however, if the topic interests me.

 

[catharina]

It isn’t quite so simple as you put forward.

There is no religion called “polytheism” any more than there is one called “monotheism”. There are people who follow a wide number (hundreds if not thousands) of specific polytheistic religions. I dcn’t think anyone on this board would be comfortable with asserting that Christianity and Islam are identical for the basis of this poll, for instance. Heck, I don’t see that most people on this board would be really comfortable with using the theology and actions of the Southern Baptists as exemplars of all Christianity.

Some of those people have internet access, as I obviously do. Some do not. Not everyone of them who has access to the internet is going to choose to be active in this forum at this particular time or concerned with this particular thread (so far I am the only one I know of right now).

To say “which religion does x --Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc or polytheism” is not a meaningful question as it is assuming as a baseline something that does not exist—that all polytheists share a common theology/worldview/way of interacting with society, etc. To be meaningful, one would need to either change it to “which group does x—monotheism or polytheism” (which highlights the problem that not all monotheistic religions are identical) or frame it in terms of a specific polytheistic religion. Then one can begin to define what one means by “social justice” and things like “if one group of the adherents of this religion engages in slavetrading and another group preaches abolition, how do you count it?” and “if they currently believe that x is a social justice issue but did not for 1900 years, how do you count it?”.

In the case of this polytheist, I am not particularly into polls, so I do not usually choose to vote in them. I am not arrogant enough to believe that my particular experiences, beliefs and religious community are necessarily representative of all polytheism–I know they are not. I have no vested interest in attempting to “prove” the validity or superiority of my faith by numbers of any kind . I from time to time choose to participate in the discussions related to polls in answer to points raised, however, if the topic interests me.

Ahhhh, Karen? I was joking.

Still it’s helpful, I suppose, that you have declared yourself a polytheist. I’ve known many polytheists. They call themselves Hindus. (You mention Southern Baptists - for some reason. My experience with them gives them high marks in Social Justice.) PS - at least one other member seems to “share” your beliefs. At the moment, I forget his name.

 

[urban-hermit]

Hi Catharina - thank you for your good humor and good sense.

Karen - May I ask which gods you believe in? I’m just curious and you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to of course.

 

[KarenNC]

Ahhhh, Karen? I was joking. Still it’s helpful, I suppose, that you have declared yourself a polytheist.

Ah, I see. I have done so on many previous occasions in many threads, so it’s not a big revelation. I had thought that I had included “polytheist” in my profile, but it isn’t there now, so I have rectified that.

Perhaps I was considering myself of too much importance to presume that it was as a result of our discussions on another thread that urban hermit included that particular part of the poll.

I’ve known many polytheists. They call themselves Hindus.

I would say that rather than “they call themselves Hindus” that they are, in fact, Hindus. That way of phrasing is like making the statement, “I have known many monotheists. They call themselves Muslims.” Makes is sound as if all monotheists are Muslim, which is likely not what was meant.

Interestingly, based on my reading, there seems to be several different streams in Hinduism, with some being actual polytheists, some being monists, some actually claiming to be monotheists. Pretty radically different theological viewpoints.

(You mention Southern Baptists - for some reason. My experience with them gives them high marks in Social Justice.) PS - at least one other member seems to “share” your beliefs. At the moment, I forget his name.

I mentioned Southern Baptists not in the context of social justice, but in the context of expecting that one can realistically use one part of any group as a truly meaningful example of all of that group on all dimensions, even when they may use some common descriptors (like “Christian”). I don’t know of many Roman Catholics who would be comfortable with someone assuming that because he was Christian, his beliefs and practices were identical to those of Southern Baptists, and I don’t blame him, as it would not be true. The two groups are radically different in many ways.

I would be shocked (pleasantly) to find someone who truly shares my beliefs on this board. Now that there are those that have some dimensions in common is more likely and has happened, but still they would be in the minority. Monism is a lot more common in American groups than actual polytheism. I am fairly used to being the fuzz on the end of the string that hangs off the fringe.

 

[catharina]

Hi Catharina - thank you for your good humor and good sense.

Karen - May I ask which gods you believe in? I’m just curious and you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to of course.

Urban Hermit - and I thank you as well!

 

[KarenNC]

Hi Catharina - thank you for your good humor and good sense.

Karen - May I ask which gods you believe in? I’m just curious and you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to of course.

Pretty clear from my profile. Hellenic, as in Greek, the Olympians.

 

[catharina]

Ah, I see. I have done so on many previous occasions in many threads, so it’s not a big revelation. I had thought that I had included “polytheist” in my profile, but it isn’t there now, so I have rectified that. Okay.

Perhaps I was considering myself of too much importance to presume that it was as a result of our discussions on another thread that urban hermit included that particular part of the poll. I wouldn’t know.

I would say that rather than “they call themselves Hindus” that they are, in fact, Hindus. That way of phrasing is like making the statement, “I have known many monotheists. They call themselves Muslims.” Makes is sound as if all monotheists are Muslim, which is likely not what was meant. Actually all I can say is that they call themselves Hindus. Are they actually observant? Most are not since I’ve known them in the context of their adjustment to the USA. Of course you’re free to name these friends and acquaintances of mine whatever you choose.

Interestingly, based on my reading, there seems to be several different streams in Hinduism, with some being actual polytheists, some being monists, some actually claiming to be monotheists. Pretty radically different theological viewpoints. The ones I’ve know are Asian Indians from the Gujurat - and polytheists.

I mentioned Southern Baptists not in the context of social justice, but in the context of expecting that one can realistically use one part of any group as a truly meaningful example of all of that group on all dimensions, even when they may use some common descriptors (like “Christian”). I don’t know of many Roman Catholics who would be comfortable with someone assuming that because he was Christian, his beliefs and practices were identical to those of Southern Baptists, and I don’t blame him, as it would not be true. The two groups are radically different in many ways. **I mentioned Southern Baptists in the context of Social Justice. I know that you didn’t. **

I would be shocked (pleasantly) to find someone who truly shares my beliefs on this board. Now that there are those that have some dimensions in common is more likely and has happened, but still they would be in the minority. Monism is a lot more common in American groups than actual polytheism. I am fairly used to being the fuzz on the end of the string that hangs off the fringe. Your choice. Clearly.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I don’t believe that Christians only do social justice out of fear any more than I believe that atheists don’t incur personal consequences if they do not act in accordance with their principles.

What personal consequences does the atheist suffer if they don’t engage in social justice activities?

 

[ribozyme]

What personal consequences does the atheist suffer if they don’t engage in social justice activities?

Nothing okay…

Unfortunately, they might be psychopaths with no feelings of compunction so nothing will compel them to give. Also they feel no remorse for their crimes.

Maybe psychopharmacology to the rescue. :extrahappy: Too bad empathy boosters do not exist (except MDMA, but I wouldn’t touch that unless it was free from all its detrimental side effects).

 

[StRaphael]

I do not know why “atheism” is a religion or a choice in your post.

Amen. Atheism is, by definition, not a religion (it is the lack of one), and belongs only in the more general category of worldview/belief system/philosophy.

 

[catharina]

Amen. Atheism is, by definition, not a religion (it is the lack of one), and belongs only in the more general category of worldview/belief system/philosophy.

In another thread, a man claimed his religion is “wiccan.” Again, unbelievable, IMO.
Anything set up ‘against God’ cannot be a religion.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I think some actual data will provide some useful information to the discussion. People like KarenNC claim that people can be charitable without religion, which is true, they can be. However, the question remains, will they be? I looked at some data from the general social survey, a national survey asking about social attitudes. I looked at giving to nonchurch organization as a function of church attendance. The idea being that those who are atheists are not likely to attend church. Here is what I found, those who attend more, give more:

those who never attended, gave an average of $197.62 to charity.

Those who attended once a year gave an average of $262 to charity.

Those who attended weekly gave an average of $385.

Those who attended more than weekly gave an average of $797.

So, perhaps the atheists are not as charitable as they claim to be?

 

[catharina]

I think some actual data will provide some useful information to the discussion. People like KarenNC claim that people can be charitable without religion, which is true, they can be. However, the question remains, will they be? I looked at some data from the general social survey, a national survey asking about social attitudes. I looked at giving to nonchurch organization as a function of church attendance. The idea being that those who are atheists are not likely to attend church. Here is what I found, those who attend more, give more:

those who never attended, gave an average of $197.62 to charity.

Those who attended once a year gave an average of $262 to charity.

Those who attended weekly gave an average of $385.

Those who attended more than weekly gave an average of $797.

So, perhaps the atheists are not as charitable as they claim to be?

… or as they imagine themselves to be?

 

[stinkcat_14]

… or as they imagine themselves to be?

One thing that I will point out is that those who attend church weekly are also likely to be donating to their church, so their non-church donations are competing with their church donations. This is not the case with the atheists, so the fact that the church goers give more is quite significant.