Which Saints Had Relatives/Friends End Up in Hell?

[multitude]

St. Dismas, St. Augustine, these men are exceptions, not the rule. These men are not particularly worthy of imitation, there are better saints to imitate. To me, these men are more of an inspiration, that even these men can get to heaven, rather than to drag you into despair. If you were to really think about those you have met in life, it is not a big surprise that a lot of people are not going to make it.

 

[littlestsouls2]

That is my kind of pun I don’t backspace over those either, ROFL

As far as book recommendations go, the best thing I’ve ever read was Mary of Agreda’s 4-volume set on St. Mary’s life; I actually own a copy (the copies at the city library kept disappearing under strange circumstances). Anything by Chesterton or Joan Carroll Cruz is always good…these kind of sources can get really dry, so they can double as good sleeping aids LOL

Good recs! I have read a decent of amount of Ven. Mary of Agreda; I love Chesterton; and I am very fond of Joan Carroll Cruz!

haha, try readng a 600 page book on ethics!

 

[Memaw]

We have to have trust and hope that God will do everything to turn a soul toward him.
Look at St. Augustine. I bet he had family and friends who have said the same thing about him. I bet he was the LAST person they would have expected to see in Heaven, much less be canonized a saint one day. Not only did he become a Christian, he became a bishop, a great saint and doctor of the Church. Would that have happened if St. Monica hadn’t prayed for him? If she didn’t, he probably wouldn’t be in Heaven right now. The power of our prayers, sacrifices and fasts pack quite the punch! Don’t despair of seeing so many people you know living in sin. By the way, you sound like a loving person and a good friend. Keep in mind though that no one ever was converted to Christ by being beaten over the head with a sermon. Like St. Francis said, “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” The Bible says that they will know we are Christians by our love, not by our arguments. In fact our words to them, however well intentioned they may be, can have disastrous results when we don’t pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit first. By the way, I’m not suggesting that you do any of the above things. I’m just making a point.

Do you by any chance pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet? It’s a powerful devotion given to St. Faustina Kowalska by Jesus Himself. If you get a chance, you should read her diary, Divine Mercy in my Soul. Her messages have been approved by the Chuch, and I think you will really enjoy reading them. If you aren’t doing it already, please consider praying the Divine a Mercy Chaplet for conversions in your family and friends. God bless you!

That quote, (Like St. Francis said, “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”), has been repeated over and over again by sooo many people, even priests, and where it came from nobody knows, but it did NOT come from St. Francis. (I wish they would PROVE what they claim!! ) That would be contradicting the Gospels. Go out to all the world and PREACH the Good News. Sometimes someone just comes up with something then attaches it to a Saint and claim they said it. With modern media it goes like wild fire. Franciscans claim St. Francis NEVER said that. I think some use it as an excuse to DO NOTHING! Faith without works, and words, means nothing. We probably wouldn’t even know who St. Paul was if he didn’t use LOTS of words!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Rosarydevotion]

OP, I understand your concerns. I really do. I love my family fiercely, especially my Dad and I worry so much for them. Particularly my Dad, who is atheist. And I pray for him on a daily basis, and offer up all my suffering for his conversion.

The world has become a sickening place, a cesspool of impurity. And sin has been normalized, to the point where if your not sinning, your weird.

But I have a hard time believing, that so many people go to hell. I dont know the exact passage from the bible, but Jesus say’s in one of the Gospels, when the apostles ask Him after the rich man didnt want to give away His wealth “who then can be saved?” And Jesus says something like “for man it’s impossible, but with God, all things are possible.”

Our job is to pray, pray, pray.

God bless

 

[Evania]

That quote, (Like St. Francis said, “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”), has been repeated over and over again by sooo many people, even priests, and where it came from nobody knows, but it did NOT come from St. Francis. (I wish they would PROVE what they claim!! ) That would be contradicting the Gospels. Go out to all the world and PREACH the Good News. Sometimes someone just comes up with something then attaches it to a Saint and claim they said it. With modern media it goes like wild fire. Franciscans claim St. Francis NEVER said that. I think some use it as an excuse to DO NOTHING! Faith without works, and words, means nothing. We probably wouldn’t even know who St. Paul was if he didn’t use LOTS of words!! God Bless, Memaw

Hi Memaw,

Thanks for your reply. I genuinely thought it came from St. Francis. I guess you’re right that things get attributed to saints. I have heard from Franciscans that he said it. I can’t prove one way or another, but in any event, I don’t have a problem with the quote. I agree with it wholeheartedly, and I disagree with you that people who quote it use it as an excuse to do nothing. At least, that’s not the case with myself or anyone that I know. I don’t understand how it can be taken to be a negative statement. It speaks for itself. It says to preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary to use words so I’m genuinely puzzled to hear that you believe that it contradicts the Gospel’s exhortation to Go into the world and preach the Good News. One could argue that Mother Teresa embodied this quote perfectly. She preached the Gospel by her actions. She treated every soul that she met like they were Christ Himself. She didn’t beat anyone over the head with lectures or give lofty speeches. Of course she spoke about Christ and His Love, but she mostly DEMONSTRATED it. She SHOWED us the Gospel in living color, close up, in action.

The quote says to use words when necessary. It isn’t saying to never use words. A lot of times words are necessary; a lot of times they are not. I don’t see how this is slamming St. Paul. In fact, one could argue that St. Paul was most known by his Christ-like works back in his day. I praise God that we have his words, but I also have a hunch that he was known far more for how he preached with his actions and the words are putting down on paper what he already possessed within his heart and was already manifesting outwardly. Hope you have a wonderful weekend!

Blessings to you too!

 

[Memaw]

Hi Memaw,

Thanks for your reply. I genuinely thought it came from St. Francis. I guess you’re right that things get attributed to saints. I have heard from Franciscans that he said it. I can’t prove one way or another, but in any event, I don’t have a problem with the quote. I agree with it wholeheartedly, and I disagree with you that people who quote it use it as an excuse to do nothing. At least, that’s not the case with myself or anyone that I know. I don’t understand how it can be taken to be a negative statement. It speaks for itself. It says to preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary to use words so I’m genuinely puzzled to hear that you believe that it contradicts the Gospel’s exhortation to Go into the world and preach the Good News. One could argue that Mother Teresa embodied this quote perfectly. She preached the Gospel by her actions. She treated every soul that she met like they were Christ Himself. She didn’t beat anyone over the head with lectures or give lofty speeches. Of course she spoke about Christ and His Love, but she mostly DEMONSTRATED it. She SHOWED us the Gospel in living color, close up, in action.

The quote says to use words when necessary. It isn’t saying to never use words. A lot of times words are necessary; a lot of times they are not. I don’t see how this is slamming St. Paul. In fact, one could argue that St. Paul was most known by his Christ-like works back in his day. I praise God that we have his words, but I also have a hunch that he was known far more for how he preached with his actions and the words are putting down on paper what he already possessed within his heart and was already manifesting outwardly. Hope you have a wonderful weekend!

Blessings to you too!

Whatever else, it is a bit contradictory. You can’t “preach” the Gospel and only use words when necessary. It’s always necessary to use words. Jesus didn’t do that, He used words, and HIS life was a PERFECT example to us. Mother Teresa used lots of words, did you happen to hear her talk at the Prayer Breakfast? It was POWERFUL. Yes her example was “saintly” and that is very important too. She used the media to get her message across also. I heard her many times interviewed. Also, the Vatican requested for Fr. John Hardon SJ to write a Catechism for Mo. Teresa’s Nuns to teach from, so they have to use words. I was given copies of those by Fr. Hardon. The Holy Father tells us to use the media too. And that is exactly what we are doing right now. Fr. Pacwa said on EWTN that St. Francis never said that. And that is a Franciscan Cable Network. I would like someone to prove it. It seemed to just pop up out of nowhere awhile back and all of a sudden its all over the place. I wasn’t “slamming” St Paul, I never even used the word! I just said we wouldn’t even know him if he didn’t speak. I doubt they would have mistreated him so and finally beheaded him if it wasn’t for what he was saying. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Evania]

Sorry Memaw, I disagree. Words are not ALWAYS necessary. However, love is.

By the way, I never said or even implyed that you had slammed St. Paul. I used it in a whole other context. I said:

I don’t see how this is slamming St. Paul.

You had used St. Paul as an example as to why you felt the quote was wrong. In reply, I was saying that I didn’t see the quote being contradictory to anything St. Paul did. Like I said, I have a hunch that everything he put down on paper for us to read and study today was first preached with his actions. The words are putting down on paper for us to follow what he already possessed within his heart and was already manifesting outwardly.
I sincerely apologize if you took my point to mean that I thought you were slamming St. Paul. I don’t think that at all.

However, I feel that you completely missed my point on Mother Teresa. Of course, she spoke at the prayer breakfast and yes she gave the occasional interview. However, she did this when it was necessary. However, if words are always necessary, then please explain why she didn’t always do it then? Did she constantly speak at luncheons, give talks at churches, and speak at universities? Was she constantly granting interviews? Not by a long shot…If all she did was talk and preach by mouth, how would she have the time to actually DO all the good that she did? Did people ask her to speak at the luncheon because she was a gifted preacher? No. It was because of what she was busy DOING for God’s people. She was preaching the Gospel through her heart, hands and feet, not solely by her mouth. Ask anyone who has worked alongside her. She believed in following that quote to the letter. Instead of merely chit chatting about how people ought to love one another, she was busy out there DOING it!

My favorite example of her preaching by her actions is this story:

On the occasion of a visit of a Catholic Bishop to the Home of the Dying in Calcutta, Mother Teresa asked him if he would like to see Jesus. On receiving an answer in the affirmative she took him to a man lying on a pallet who had “clearly visible things crawling over his body.” As the Bishop stood there in a state of partial shock she knelt down and wrapped her arms around the man, holding him like a baby in her arms. “Here he is,” she said.

I doubt this “sermon” would have made as big as an impact if she made it standing behind a podium. Faith in action is the most beautiful sermon indeed…

By the way, thank you for your posts, but this will be my last post on this subject. The OP asked for advice and prayers and I feel like my original post delivered that. I don’t want to continue to derail his thread. I know that some people on CAF like going back and forth debating, and I don’t mind doing it a few times; however, after awhile I think it gets a little pointless. Like I said earlier, no one ever changes over arguing…no matter how well-crafted or thought out the argument may be. They will know we are Christians by our love,not by our debating skills. So anyway, I’m done debating on the OP’s thread. I stand by my original statement. I totally love the quote and will continue to live by it. You are certainly free to disagree.

God Bless!

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

The only practicing Christian in my extended family is my mother. And she is a revert after about 35 years in the secular wasteland. The others are all fallen away. I worry a lot. I am terrified for my young children, how they will turn out. I pray a lot for all of them, especially for my husband and children. so I understand how you feel.

But I don’t think that the state of other people’s souls and whether the deceased ones are in hell will affect our salvation. I don’t think you should worry about that, about being a bad fruit becuse of the bad tree that is your family, and thus doomed to perish.

 

[DrWeed]

Whatever else, it is a bit contradictory. You can’t “preach” the Gospel and only use words when necessary. It’s always necessary to use words. Jesus didn’t do that, He used words, and HIS life was a PERFECT example to us. Mother Teresa used lots of words, did you happen to hear her talk at the Prayer Breakfast? It was POWERFUL. Yes her example was “saintly” and that is very important too. She used the media to get her message across also. I heard her many times interviewed. Also, the Vatican requested for Fr. John Hardon SJ to write a Catechism for Mo. Teresa’s Nuns to teach from, so they have to use words. I was given copies of those by Fr. Hardon. The Holy Father tells us to use the media too. And that is exactly what we are doing right now. Fr. Pacwa said on EWTN that St. Francis never said that. And that is a Franciscan Cable Network. I would like someone to prove it. It seemed to just pop up out of nowhere awhile back and all of a sudden its all over the place. I wasn’t “slamming” St Paul, I never even used the word! I just said we wouldn’t even know him if he didn’t speak. I doubt they would have mistreated him so and finally beheaded him if it wasn’t for what he was saying. God Bless, Memaw

I’m glad you pointed this out about St. Francis’ quote; I’d heard it referenced before, but never thought to verify it. I have read G.K. Chesterton’s biography on him several times, so I searched the text and couldn’t find any references to it in there either; given that it’s considered among the best bios of Francis ever written, the lack of references to the quote raises a few more eyebrows. Thanks again

 

[DrWeed]

Sorry Memaw, I disagree. Words are not ALWAYS necessary. However, love is.

By the way, I never said or even implyed that you had slammed St. Paul. I used it in a whole other context. I said:

I don’t see how this is slamming St. Paul.

You had used St. Paul as an example as to why you felt the quote was wrong. In reply, I was saying that I didn’t see the quote being contradictory to anything St. Paul did. Like I said, I have a hunch that everything he put down on paper for us to read and study today was first preached with his actions. The words are putting down on paper for us to follow what he already possessed within his heart and was already manifesting outwardly.
I sincerely apologize if you took my point to mean that I thought you were slamming St. Paul. I don’t think that at all.

However, I feel that you completely missed my point on Mother Teresa. Of course, she spoke at the prayer breakfast and yes she gave the occasional interview. However, she did this when it was necessary. However, if words are always necessary, then please explain why she didn’t always do it then? Did she constantly speak at luncheons, give talks at churches, and speak at universities? Was she constantly granting interviews? Not by a long shot…If all she did was talk and preach by mouth, how would she have the time to actually DO all the good that she did? Did people ask her to speak at the luncheon because she was a gifted preacher? No. It was because of what she was busy DOING for God’s people. She was preaching the Gospel through her heart, hands and feet, not solely by her mouth. Ask anyone who has worked alongside her. She believed in following that quote to the letter. Instead of merely chit chatting about how people ought to love one another, she was busy out there DOING it!

My favorite example of her preaching by her actions is this story:

On the occasion of a visit of a Catholic Bishop to the Home of the Dying in Calcutta, Mother Teresa asked him if he would like to see Jesus. On receiving an answer in the affirmative she took him to a man lying on a pallet who had “clearly visible things crawling over his body.” As the Bishop stood there in a state of partial shock she knelt down and wrapped her arms around the man, holding him like a baby in her arms. “Here he is,” she said.

I doubt this “sermon” would have made as big as an impact if she made it standing behind a podium. Faith in action is the most beautiful sermon indeed…

By the way, thank you for your posts, but this will be my last post on this subject. The OP asked for advice and prayers and I feel like my original post delivered that. I don’t want to continue to derail his thread. I know that some people on CAF like going back and forth debating, and I don’t mind doing it a few times; however, after awhile I think it gets a little pointless. Like I said earlier, no one ever changes over arguing…no matter how well-crafted or thought out the argument may be. They will know we are Christians by our love,not by our debating skills. So anyway, I’m done debating on the OP’s thread. I stand by my original statement. I totally love the quote and will continue to live by it. You are certainly free to disagree.

God Bless!

Thanks for the replies, you don’t have to worry about derailing the thread, I actually learned a lot about tangential subjects like St. Francis. I just want to express that although I agree with almost everything you wrote and understand your main point, arguing and debating is not a pointless exercise. Yes, people do change because of evidence and logic; I can attest to that because I was forced to convert by the sheer weight of facts in favor of Catholicism; I started off as an atheist at 10 and was disproven on one point at a time over many years. So I know from personal experience that there is value to debating; the problems start when it isn’t done honestly; the more that pride enters the mix, the more the fallacies multiply. Since we all have different personalities, what leads people to the faith may vary substantially.

Let me give a hypothetical example that is frightening, yet probably realistically true of many hundreds of millions of Americans and Europeans. Say, for example, someone is convinced by years of indoctrination and reading the wrong sources that poverty stems from overpopulation. As a result, they may begin to think of charitable works as merely prolonging the misery of the poor and might even see euthanasia or abortion as doing them a favor. Someone in this mindset isn’t going to see Mother Teresa’s good works as “good”; it would definitely help to take away all of the fallacies that their false worldview is built on, such as disproving Malthusian philosophy and demonstrating that poverty more often comes from inequality, especially when Catholic moral doctrines on economics are violated. They might dig in their heels and refuse to listen, but even if there’s no hope of convincing them, we must still stand up for truth and justice by telling them anyways - especially if onlookers might be swayed one way or another.

I think you’re right that there are a lot of times where debate becomes pointless, but God gave us the capacity to debate for a reason, because a lot of good can come from it. We have plenty of evidence of others being converted through debate. St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Dominic, Hilaire Belloc and G.K. Chesterton brought a lot of people to the faith through little but their debating skills and knowledge. Jesus debates with the Pharisees throughout his whole ministry and wasn’t shy about embarrassing them when the need arose. Many of the people who witnessed his miracles and good works on a routine basis didn’t convert at all, or took their sweet time doing so, or actively fought him. Demonstrating love is sometimes enough; sometimes it’s also necessary to explain what love is.

 

[DrWeed]

The only practicing Christian in my extended family is my mother. And she is a revert after about 35 years in the secular wasteland. The others are all fallen away. I worry a lot. I am terrified for my young children, how they will turn out. I pray a lot for all of them, especially for my husband and children. so I understand how you feel.

But I don’t think that the state of other people’s souls and whether the deceased ones are in hell will affect our salvation. I don’t think you should worry about that, about being a bad fruit becuse of the bad tree that is your family, and thus doomed to perish.

I’m basically in the same boat as you, so thanks for the encouragement. I always wanted to have a lot of children and am sometimes angry about the fact that I have none, till I stop and think about how difficult it would be to raise kids in today’s environment, knowing what I know now about Catholic standards of judgment and the decline of Western civilization. I pray a lot for my friends and relatives and every day, I see new evidence that I need to up the ante and do a better job, LOL. …The whole “bad fruit” thing reminded me of what Fr. Corapi (before he went off the rails) used to say: “No one goes to Heaven alone, and no one goes to Hell alone.” From what I’ve seen, it’s a lot easier to end up in the latter group these days LOL

 

[DrWeed]

OP, I understand your concerns. I really do. I love my family fiercely, especially my Dad and I worry so much for them. Particularly my Dad, who is atheist. And I pray for him on a daily basis, and offer up all my suffering for his conversion.

The world has become a sickening place, a cesspool of impurity. And sin has been normalized, to the point where if your not sinning, your weird.

But I have a hard time believing, that so many people go to hell. I dont know the exact passage from the bible, but Jesus say’s in one of the Gospels, when the apostles ask Him after the rich man didnt want to give away His wealth “who then can be saved?” And Jesus says something like “for man it’s impossible, but with God, all things are possible.”

Our job is to pray, pray, pray.

God bless

I hope you are right, since I want to see as many people make it into Heaven as possible. The thing that worries me is that although “all things are possible” to God, our civilization has chosen to no longer be with him. It is impossible for us to get there without him, but the modern West, in its arrogance, thinks it can be saved on its own, while willfully defying all of his commandments. Jesus spoke to the disciples on this occasion, to men who continued to walk with him, not to the Pharisees and others who despised him, like much of the world does today…

 

[DrWeed]

Good recs! I have read a decent of amount of Ven. Mary of Agreda; I love Chesterton; and I am very fond of Joan Carroll Cruz!

haha, try readng a 600 page book on ethics!

Does the Bible count? ROFL

 

[Ricky_C]

Not sure how much this actually contributes to conversation, but I’ll give this a go.

I’ve been struggling with the idea of the fewness of the saved a lot in the past few days, but what’s been helping me get through this is faith in God’s ability to call people to him out of seemingly nowhere. I’ve been blessed to have firsthand experience with this ability of His, and I’m grateful that He’s given me this example. I don’t even remember exactly how it happened, but at some point, I must have decided that I needed to start focusing more on my religion, and that’s how I got to where I am today. My family is Catholic, but I wasn’t very religious at the time God called me to him, so I’d like to believe my calling came “out of nowhere” (God’s plan is not chance), and that I’m fortunate enough to have a family encouraging the growth of my faith.

My point here is that, as was stated with some of the aforementioned Saints, it’s totally possible for someone seemingly hopeless to be called to God, whether it’s over time or instantaneous. I really don’t like assuming that someone is more likely to end up in Hell than somebody else, because as much as we may see sin in someone, we cannot say for sure whether or not they’ll go to Hell. I see where the idea of being “realistic” about it comes from, but God can defy what we see as real in so many ways. I’m hoping you and your family can be brought closer to God and to each other so that you can celebrate together in Heaven.

Thanks for making this topic, DrWeed; the discussion here has been really interesting and thought-provoking, and it’s also given me a chance to put my vague thoughts into more precise words. May God bless you and all those who have brought their ideas to the table here!

 

[alphawoman]

This is an interesting discussion. I found myself contemplating the passage about the true way being narrow in Matthew 7:13-14 a few weeks ago, and I’ve been trying to use my prayers and Masses to help me gain some clarity around that passage in the intervening time.
Matthew 7:13-14:

The Narrow Gate.
13

• “Enter through the narrow gate;* for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
  14
  How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

Source: usccb.org/bible/matthew/7

What I always wonder is what is meant by “those who find it”. Does that group connote those who, through receipt or the sacraments and adherence to the tenets of the Catholic faith, merit immediate admission to heaven upon death from the works of their life? Or is it the sum total of people ultimately admitted to heaven after purification in purgatory and subsequent acts of God’s mercy? We can’t know, but I am hopeful and find comfort in the knowledge of the abundant graces God gives us through the sacraments. It isn’t unfathomable given what we know about God that there are various degrees of expiation for our sins carried out by multiple parties to secure an indirect salvation. Hope, pray, and fast. But, most of all, trust and love God.