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TerryPaul
Guest
If we as Catholics have purgatory for us sinners, which souls go to hell?
Thanks,
Terry
Thanks,
Terry
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JeffGuidry
Guest
“Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell” – CCC 1035
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TerryPaul
Guest
So we can live a Holy life in the Church, commit one mortal sin, that we do not have time to confess, die and go to hell?
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thistle
Guest
In your example a person would have to die the very instant after committing a mortal sin to have no time to be sorry and intend confessing.
Otherwise the person would be able to at least make an Act of Perfect Contrition which would entail the firm intention to go as soon as possible thereafter to Confession. In such a case if the person died before Confession their sins would be forgiven.
An unrepentant mortal sin would indeed send the soul to Hell.
This is why Christ told us we don’t know the day or and the hour so we should be ready!
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TerryPaul
Guest
If this is the case, what does Christ judge? We seem to have done it already for Him.
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thistle
Guest
Immediately after death God judges our soul (The Particular Judgement) and a soul in a state of unrepented mortal sin goes to Hell; a soul in a state of grace is saved and either goes straight to Heaven or more likely to Purgatory for cleansing of venial sins/unremitted temporal punishment.
Your profile shows you are a Catholic so you should know this. If a Catholic only ever reads two books they should be the Bible and the CCC.
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TerryPaul
Guest
I am a Catholic and have read both cover to cover a few times and even taught at the high school level and although I tend to be a “black & white person”, I have learned, as you may have too, that life has grey areas and that is what I want to explore for awhile …
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JMJ_Theresa
Guest
If you consider that a mortal sin is a complete rejection of God, then it all makes sense. God offers his mercy to the sinner, but the sinner rejects it. The sinner prefers the sin. God never forces his love on anyone.
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TerryPaul
Guest
oh, ok if we consider that Mortal sin is rejecting God completly, then I see what is being said here but then only a reminant would do this …
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neweyes
Guest
There is only one unforgivable sin–Jesus said it himself. If you are here asking the question, seeking him earnestly and loving the Lord, it is doubtful that you have committed that sin.
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TerryPaul
Guest
“The Unforgivable Sin” is explained this way be one definition …
“Anyone who, in the sense that Jesus used the term, is blaspheming the Spirit, genuinely believes that the Spirit through whom Jesus ministered was demonic. So salvation is impossible to such a person because it is inevitable that anyone believing this about our Lord will refuse to believe that Jesus offers divine forgiveness.”
Did Judas commit this sin?
“Anyone who, in the sense that Jesus used the term, is blaspheming the Spirit, genuinely believes that the Spirit through whom Jesus ministered was demonic. So salvation is impossible to such a person because it is inevitable that anyone believing this about our Lord will refuse to believe that Jesus offers divine forgiveness.”
Did Judas commit this sin?
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melbourne_guy
Guest
Who defines mortal and venial sins?
If theres no set of defintion in the ccc Then how can people make accusations such as “miss mass and its a mortal sin” ?
If theres no set of defintion in the ccc Then how can people make accusations such as “miss mass and its a mortal sin” ?
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thistle
Guest
Are you really trying to tell us that you do not believe deliberately missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin?
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blessedstar
Guest
I can’t claim to know who of us go straight to heaven, who of us go to purgatory and who of us go to hell. But trusting in the mercy of God and believing that He is love and is merciful to my mind (and it is only my conclusion that I have drawn) those who go to hell refuse God even when they see Him as did the fallen angels and therefore their end is the same as those aforementioned angels. Such a soul wants nothing to do with God, doesn’t even call upon His mercy nor has any sorrow for the sins they know they have committed, in short they refuse Him and condemn themselves as Jesus does not condemn anyone but those who condemn themselves.
That’s how I see it and I am interested in how others view it.
That’s how I see it and I am interested in how others view it.
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thistle
Guest
I’m not quite clear on all you are saying. Are you saying that those who go to Hell are those who die and then still reject God even when they see him?
If so that is not correct. We only have the choice to accept or reject God’s love during our life on earth. Upon death our choice disappears and our soul is judged on its state at the moment of our death.
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setter
Guest
I am curious as to how you arrive at this conclusion?
Jesus was asked this very question by the disciples: “Lord, will those who are saved be few?”, and the reply of Jesus was not too reassuring of the vast majority being saved:
“And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.” Luke 13:23-24
Ellsewhere Jesus made it clear that one does not wander or drift into heaven, even for those doing apparent religious works:
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. …"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Matt. 7:13-14, 21
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TerryPaul
Guest
Problem that I find, as do countless others, is we quote a text from the Bible and we think we understand it in its context, then we can find other texts that do not contradicted it but offer a fuller answer.
That’s why we have the Holy Bible rather than a Holy “pamphlet.”
So, I just got off the phone with a Catholic priest, as I needed to have a well balanced answer. I could not summarize as well as he did but basically I understood that our loving God uses every possibility to reach us and search our hearts for goodness.
We have Divine Judgment but Jesus is our Divine Advocate. And that no case is clear cut, not even Judas!
That’s why we have the Holy Bible rather than a Holy “pamphlet.”
So, I just got off the phone with a Catholic priest, as I needed to have a well balanced answer. I could not summarize as well as he did but basically I understood that our loving God uses every possibility to reach us and search our hearts for goodness.
We have Divine Judgment but Jesus is our Divine Advocate. And that no case is clear cut, not even Judas!
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melbourne_guy
Guest
All of my relatives are catholic, none of them go to mass.
All of my friends are catholic, (since i went to a catholic school thats alot), none of them go to mass.
When i go to mass, and im being very serious, i spot nobody under the age of 25 (excluding all the toddlers).
Most are senior citizens.
Are they all going to hell?
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Flopfoot
Guest
Yep. Likely your priest would have told you about the 3 conditions for a sin to be mortal. Grave matter, full knowledge, full consent. Now, we can say whether something was a grave matter or not cause in most cases it is objective. So if someone murders someone I can say that it is a grave matter. However, full consent of the will, I can’t judge. For all I know, the murderer could have been insane and hence not really consenting to his action. I can’t say for sure either way. Hence I can’t say for sure whether he has committed a mortal sin and would then end up in hell if he doesnt repent, or if he hasn’t committed a mortal sin and might still be in a state of grace.
As for full knowledge, this is another one which in most cases we can’t know for sure if someone else has mortally sinned. Like masturbation, a lot of people (especially non-Catholics) don’t know that it is a grave matter, so then it is not a mortal sin for them. On the other hand, from what I understand there are some cases where we can say that full knowledge always applies. Like with murder, this is a matter of natural moral law and everyone knows deep down that it is gravely wrong because it is something that God ‘hard-codes’ into us.
Thing is that even if we could know for sure that someone has sinned mortally, we still don’t know whether they are going to hell because we don’t know if they have repented or not. Even if someone dies before getting a chance to go to reconciliation, they can still be forgiven as God is not bound by the sacraments that He instituted. Repentance involves several steps - examination of conscience (ie, understanding / figuring out what you have done wrong), contrition (having sorrow for your sins), and making a firm resolve never to again offend God in this way. The thing is that these steps to repentance are all internal and it can happen in a split second (someone is about to die and suddenly they realise that what they did was wrong…) so we can never know if someone repented or not.
Say that Judas did completely consent to betrayal and suicide (which I don’t think we know for sure). We still don’t know if he repented while he was hanging there on the rope (hanging can take some time to kill) and whether God was merciful and spared his soul. We can only know for sure once we get to heaven and have a look to see if Judas is there or not.
Regarding the ‘skipping mass’ thing.
A little while ago so many people on the forum were just working under the assumption that it was a mortal sin that I just went along with it.
However, thinking about it, I never used to know whether it was grave or not and in fact I still don’t know for sure. If it is a grave matter then it could potentially be a mortal sin. Thistle, since you assert that it is a mortal sin, can you please give some reference (eg, CCC or similar) saying that skipping Sunday mass is a grave matter?
As for full knowledge, this is another one which in most cases we can’t know for sure if someone else has mortally sinned. Like masturbation, a lot of people (especially non-Catholics) don’t know that it is a grave matter, so then it is not a mortal sin for them. On the other hand, from what I understand there are some cases where we can say that full knowledge always applies. Like with murder, this is a matter of natural moral law and everyone knows deep down that it is gravely wrong because it is something that God ‘hard-codes’ into us.
Thing is that even if we could know for sure that someone has sinned mortally, we still don’t know whether they are going to hell because we don’t know if they have repented or not. Even if someone dies before getting a chance to go to reconciliation, they can still be forgiven as God is not bound by the sacraments that He instituted. Repentance involves several steps - examination of conscience (ie, understanding / figuring out what you have done wrong), contrition (having sorrow for your sins), and making a firm resolve never to again offend God in this way. The thing is that these steps to repentance are all internal and it can happen in a split second (someone is about to die and suddenly they realise that what they did was wrong…) so we can never know if someone repented or not.
Say that Judas did completely consent to betrayal and suicide (which I don’t think we know for sure). We still don’t know if he repented while he was hanging there on the rope (hanging can take some time to kill) and whether God was merciful and spared his soul. We can only know for sure once we get to heaven and have a look to see if Judas is there or not.
Regarding the ‘skipping mass’ thing.
A little while ago so many people on the forum were just working under the assumption that it was a mortal sin that I just went along with it.
However, thinking about it, I never used to know whether it was grave or not and in fact I still don’t know for sure. If it is a grave matter then it could potentially be a mortal sin. Thistle, since you assert that it is a mortal sin, can you please give some reference (eg, CCC or similar) saying that skipping Sunday mass is a grave matter?
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thistle
Guest
You know the criteria for a mortal sin.
Grave (serious) matter
Knowledge that the act is grave prior to the act
Full consent of the will
Missing Mass on a Sunday is a sin of grave matter. If the people you mention know its grave and they deliberately miss Mass anyway then they are committing a mortal sin and without repentance and absolution through the Sacrament of Reconciliation then yes they will go to Hell if they die in that state of mortal sin.
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