Which Was The Deceiver, Adam Or Eve?

[planten]

As the late comedian Tommy Cooper would have said: ‘Just like that!’

So God is not infinite after all?

Thanks for clarifying the position!

**Some more clarification for you. According to Quran, It was the simple devil (Iblis) who decieved Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were decieved by the devil. They did not decieve any one.

They did not sin. They made a mistake of unintentional disobedience. To err is human. Forgiveness is divine. It was a mistake only. No real sin.
They repented and were forgiven because God has the power to forgive any one. He is the Master (not a judge who has to follow the others laws). He can forgive.

Adam and Eve had made a mistake. Even if it was a sin, it did not involve any one other than God. So they had not to be forgiven by any one else except God Himself. And He forgave them. There was no sin left in them.
But the devil when questioned was adamant. He said that he was right and that he would prove it. He disobeyed due to his own intentions. Devil was not decieved or coaxed (misled) by any one. That was his own intentional mistake which becomes a sin. That is clear disobediance.

When he was arrogant and argued with God, thereafter he was despised and called Al-Shaitan, (The dare-devil, the open enemy of mankind). He is the enemy of all Jews and Muslims and Hindus and all mankind. The christians have to beware of him more than any one else.

There is no original sin. It is a wrong story which has been made up o offer Jesus as a scapegoat (holy lamb) for the sins of mankind. But it had no use at all. The sins of mankind did not vanish. They are increasing every day. Ad why to punish an innocent man (Jesus) for the sins of the sinners? That is not fair**.

 

[ralphinal]

**Some more clarification for you. According to Quran, It was the simple devil (Iblis) who decieved Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were decieved by the devil. They did not decieve any one.

They did not sin. They made a mistake of unintentional disobedience. To err is human. Forgiveness is divine. It was a mistake only. No real sin.
They repented and were forgiven because God has the power to forgive any one. He is the Master (not a judge who has to follow the others laws). He can forgive.

Adam and Eve had made a mistake. Even if it was a sin, it did not involve any one other than God. So they had not to be forgiven by any one else except God Himself. And He forgave them. There was no sin left in them.
But the devil when questioned was adamant. He said that he was right and that he would prove it. He disobeyed due to his own intentions. Devil was not decieved or coaxed (misled) by any one. That was his own intentional mistake which becomes a sin. That is clear disobediance.

When he was arrogant and argued with God, thereafter he was despised and called Al-Shaitan, (The dare-devil, the open enemy of mankind). He is the enemy of all Jews and Muslims and Hindus and all mankind. The christians have to beware of him more than any one else.

There is no original sin. It is a wrong story which has been made up o offer Jesus as a scapegoat (holy lamb) for the sins of mankind. But it had no use at all. The sins of mankind did not vanish. They are increasing every day. Ad why to punish an innocent man (Jesus) for the sins of the sinners? That is not fair**.

“Do not eat of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil” is what God said. That is a clear command. They ate of the fruit. That is a clear violation of a clear command. They did sin as they chose to violate the command of God. Yes, they were tempted by the devil. That does not mean that he told them it was a lemon when it was from the Tree. He tempted them with making them like God. A mistake is saying that they did not know that that was the tree. They knew and they did it.

One of the symptoms of origional sin is a natural drifting away from God by men when they do not try to stay close to God. Prayers get lax, we begin to sin more and it bothers us less.

As for the death of Christ, it did not remove our desire to sin. No, we still have that as we have a fallen nature. What it did was create a system whereby men can be forgiven for sin and enter eternal life. We have the choice to sin or not. We have the choice to follow God or not. IT is called free-will.

 

[Cathdefender]

I still say it was Eve, since God spoke to her first and asked what had happened. Satan was there to tempt, they had free will, they could of refused but didn’t.

 

[Ronald_E]

I still say it was Eve, since God spoke to her first and asked what had happened. Satan was there to tempt, they had free will, they could of refused but didn’t.

The extent to which we have free will is determined by the knowledge we have. Did you know what good and evil were before you learned about it? Did you know death before you learned about it? Did you know and do you know who you are before you begin to learn from someone who teaches you from their perspective of their life experiences?
Free will means to have the freedom to experience and to learn from that experience. They had no idea about satan because they had no idea about good and evil. If we do not look at this with compassion which comes from love then we judge according to the inclination of a hardened heart.

 

[ralphinal]

I still say it was Eve, since God spoke to her first and asked what had happened. Satan was there to tempt, they had free will, they could of refused but didn’t.

I thought he spoke to Adam first.

 

[Catherine_S]

That’s the problem, it is not that simple. What comes from our lips reveal what is in our hearts. Since I now have a better understanding of God I cannot do what I did for 40 years when I did not know him. When I did not understand sin I did not know the harm it could cause others or myself.
The man and the woman could not know sin or evil and thus could not betray God.

So Adam and Eve were victims?
God told them “not to do something” even though He knew they lacked the ability to** understand** Him or the consequences but He punished them severly anyway?
Not much free will involved there!
*Nor compassion. *
So no original sin ?
.

 

[MHalsey]

The extent to which we have free will is determined by the knowledge we have. Did you know what good and evil were before you learned about it? Did you know death before you learned about it? Did you know and do you know who you are before you begin to learn from someone who teaches you from their perspective of their life experiences?
Free will means to have the freedom to experience and to learn from that experience. They had no idea about satan because they had no idea about good and evil. If we do not look at this with compassion which comes from love then we judge according to the inclination of a hardened heart.

No, free will is the freedom to follow God’s will or our own. But by doing so we must accept the consequences of our actions. By choosing the follow their own will, based on the deception of the serpent, they choose NOT to follow God’s will or His commandment. Therefore they suffer the consequences of their actions. They were not forced to eat the fruit. They knew God did not want them to eat it, yet they did anyway. The lies of the serpent are only a vehicle for them to disobey God’s command.

You also miss something very important: Justice. While love and compassion are important, they are meaningless without justice. God is the Right Judge. yet his judgment of A and E does not lack the compassion and love you spoke of. God helps them get started on life outside the garden. He looks after them and their offspring. Although it takes a few thousand years for His full Mercy and compassion to come to fulfillment in Jesus on the Cross.

 

[Ronald_E]

So Adam and Eve were victims?
God told them “not to do something” even though He knew they lacked the ability to** understand** Him or the consequences but He punished them severly anyway?
Not much free will involved there!
*Nor compassion. *
So no original sin ?
.

He did not punish them. You interpret Him punishing them. He prepared Adam for entrance into the outside world. He knew this was going to happen already. He knew the outcome before everything was created. Natural consequences occur with innocent decisions made by innocent people. We have to experience natural consequences to mature. We cannot be protected and expect to mature.
We interpret what happened based on a human projection of our own experience based on hindsight.

 

[Ronald_E]

No, free will is the freedom to follow God’s will or our own.

I agree. How do you know God’s will? Where does it say they knew God’s will. Genesis was not written by them. How does a child know the significance of the parents’ will? By learning through exploration. The child does not know what disobedience is until pain is experienced. You are projecting on to A and E what you have learned through their exploration. Do you really think that if they knew the suffering they would experience in their human bodies as a result of their exploration that they would choose to gain knowledge of good and evil?
Remember that old saying that ignorance is bliss.

But by doing so we must accept the consequences of our actions.

That is what we now know. They had to learn it.

By choosing the follow their own will, based on the deception of the serpent, they choose NOT to follow God’s will or His commandment. Therefore they suffer the consequences of their actions. They were not forced to eat the fruit. They knew God did not want them to eat it, yet they did anyway. The lies of the serpent are only a vehicle for them to disobey God’s command.

The only way they could be deceived was to not have knowledge of good and evil. Thus they prepared the way for us to make an informed choice.

You also miss something very important: Justice.

I did not miss justice. Justice occurs later on when death did enter life through a violent act.

While love and compassion are important, they are meaningless without justice.

Proper justice is the result of love and compassion.

God is the Right Judge. yet his judgment of A and E does not lack the compassion and love you spoke of. God helps them get started on life outside the garden. He looks after them and their offspring. Although it takes a few thousand years for His full Mercy and compassion to come to fulfillment in Jesus on the Cross.

I totally agree. I would rather judge through God’s love than my own judgment. That is why I see the beauty of what happened with Adam and Eve.

 

[Valke2]

I still say it was Eve, since God spoke to her first and asked what had happened. Satan was there to tempt, they had free will, they could of refused but didn’t.

I believe God speaks to Adam first,doesn’t he. He asks Adam where he is, asks him if he ate from the tree. Adam blames Eve. God speaks to Eve. Eve blames the serpent. Then God pronounces the curses in the reverse order.

 

[AlegreFe]

Nobody betrayed God.
As a father myself, whenever my young daughter does something against my instructions, I dont see it as a betrayal. She was just curious and made a mistake. I know she still loves me like crazy.

I think they were thinking like average kids “IM SURE DADDY WONT MIND!”

That’s the problem these days with society and with parents. They don’t believe in discipline. Parents just say, “oh kids will be kids. It’s okay if they do something wrong, after all they need to spread their wings and they do have free will. Look how cute they are anyway.” HOGWASH! God never said that and He never will. God loves us too much to let us wollow in our own dirt. God gives us free will, sure. But we have a free will to do what is right. Free will is not license to do whatever we want regardless of the consequences. God hates complacency. He’ll spit you right out.

 

[Lilyflower]

Satan was the deceiver.

Adam and Eve both betrayed God.

It’s that simple.

Amen

More than that. They as finite beings offended the Infinite Being. They committed a crime so serious they were unable to rectify the damage that was done. To merely say ‘sorry’ was not enough.

That paved the way for the sin debt to have to be paid only by a being that was infinite. Only God could repay the debt.

Thus Almighty God was the injured party and ironically only He could pay the price of mans’ offense against Him.

 

[AlegreFe]

First satan didn’t deceive Adam.

He deceived Eve.

It was Eve who then deceived Adam.

Also Scripture says:
Genesis 3:13
And the Lord God said unto the woman, “What is this that thou hast done”? And the woman said, “The serpant beguiled me, and I did eat”.

GOD PLACES THE BLAME DIRECTLY ON EVE. He said
**“What is this that thou hast done”? **

Eve did it.

Not Adam.

They both did it. But Adam being the man should have stopped Eve. No, instead he was the first wimp in history and gave in to Eve. They’re all deceivers; the serpant, Eve and Adam. But Adam should have been a man about it and stopped Eve.

The serpant knew that he should go to Eve first because he knew that Adam would wither in the hands of Eve and give in. The woman disobeyed first because the serpant knew who to target. But because Adam listened to Eve he was also punished. God places the blame on both. Both Adam & Eve play the blame game.

 

[Lilyflower]

“Do not eat of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil” is what God said. That is a clear command. They ate of the fruit. That is a clear violation of a clear command. They did sin as they chose to violate the command of God. Yes, they were tempted by the devil. That does not mean that he told them it was a lemon when it was from the Tree. He tempted them with making them like God. A mistake is saying that they did not know that that was the tree. They knew and they did it.

One of the symptoms of origional sin is a natural drifting away from God by men when they do not try to stay close to God. Prayers get lax, we begin to sin more and it bothers us less.

As for the death of Christ, it did not remove our desire to sin. No, we still have that as we have a fallen nature. What it did was create a system whereby men can be forgiven for sin and enter eternal life. We have the choice to sin or not. We have the choice to follow God or not. IT is called free-will.

Amen

 

[AlegreFe]

Eve may have said the serpent beguiled her. That doesn’t mean she was telling the truth. And God only mentions his commandment as being given to Adam.

That’s right. God told Adam before He even made Eve. So Adam should have stopped Eve when she believed the serpant.

As for Satan, he doesn’t make an appearance in the story.

Satan was the serpant. But if you mean that he doesn’t make an appearance when God was telling Adam about not eating of the tree, then you’re right. At least it doesn’t specifically say that the serpant was there. I would imagine that the serpant was there all along just waiting. But he does make an appearance in Gen3. That is how he got Eve to eat of the tree.

 

[AlegreFe]

So the fact that God said to Eve, “What hast thou done”? Isn’t putting the blame on her? Looks like it to me.

Yes it is. But you also implied that God only blames Eve. You are wrong. He blames both.
This is God speaking to Adam; He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” Then God says to Adam; “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
Do you really think that God lets Adam get away with it and only blames Eve just because the serpant goes to Eve first? Adam was the one given the command when Eve wasn’t even created by God yet.

 

[dessert]

**Some more clarification for you. According to Quran, It was the simple devil (Iblis) who decieved Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were decieved by the devil. They did not decieve any one.

They did not sin. They made a mistake of unintentional disobedience. To err is human. Forgiveness is divine. It was a mistake only. No real sin.
They repented and were forgiven because God has the power to forgive any one. He is the Master (not a judge who has to follow the others laws). He can forgive.

Adam and Eve had made a mistake. Even if it was a sin, it did not involve any one other than God. So they had not to be forgiven by any one else except God Himself. And He forgave them. There was no sin left in them.
But the devil when questioned was adamant. He said that he was right and that he would prove it. He disobeyed due to his own intentions. Devil was not decieved or coaxed (misled) by any one. That was his own intentional mistake which becomes a sin. That is clear disobediance.

When he was arrogant and argued with God, thereafter he was despised and called Al-Shaitan, (The dare-devil, the open enemy of mankind). He is the enemy of all Jews and Muslims and Hindus and all mankind. The christians have to beware of him more than any one else.

There is no original sin. It is a wrong story which has been made up o offer Jesus as a scapegoat (holy lamb) for the sins of mankind. But it had no use at all. The sins of mankind did not vanish. They are increasing every day. Ad why to punish an innocent man (Jesus) for the sins of the sinners? That is not fair**.

So do you think satan wasn’t really satan till he was rebuked and sent to crawl on his belly? He was certainly banned too. don’t you believe they were all banned from the garden? The devil can be anywhere yes we must watch out. I even got into a discussion with someone about how the devil can be in the adoration room while I was praying. It was a heavy discussion because I didn’t think so but I came to realize that people can be silently sittting and thinking terrible thoughts even if no one is saying anything.
Your thinking is too simplistic. Jesus showed us life is not fair.

 

[AlegreFe]

Some more clarification for you. According to Quran, It was the simple devil (Iblis) who decieved Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were decieved by the devil.

True.

They did not decieve any one.

False

They did not sin.

False

They made a mistake of unintentional disobedience.

True they made a mistake. False, it was not unintentional as Adam knew very well that he should not eat from that tree because God commanded it of him.

To err is human.

True but it’s not an excuse to sin.

Forgiveness is divine.

True

It was a mistake only. No real sin.

God commands Adam not to eat of the tree. Adam knows very well he should not eat of it. Adam sinned.

They repented and were forgiven because God has the power to forgive any one. He is the Master (not a judge who has to follow the others laws). He can forgive.

Of course God can forgive and of course He has the power to forgive. I don’t know if God could yet forgive them because Jesus had not died on the cross yet. Now as a Catholic I know that the merits of Jesus could be taken and placed anywhere and anytime because God is outside of time. But I don’t think forgivness was granted yet. Let’s just say they were forgiven, as part of their repentance God has commanded this of them;
16 To the woman he said, “I will surely
multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.”
17 And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the
voice of your wife and have eaten of
the tree of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days
of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth
for you; and you shall eat the plants
of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face you shall
eat bread, till you return to the
ground, for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Adam and Eve had made a mistake. Even if it was a sin, it did not involve any one other than God. So they had not to be forgiven by any one else except God Himself.

False. Adam was the one given the command so Adam should apologize to Eve for allowing her to eat. And Eve should forgive. But again, I don’t know if any “forgiving” is taking place yet. I would have to look in on that or contemplate on that. Or if anyone can enlighten me on this I would surely appreciate it. Although I don’t think at this time forgiveness was a factor.

And He forgave them. There was no sin left in them.

False. Sin was still there for them. They were left in the abode of the dead until Jesus went to them after dying on the cross. I think I just answered my own question above.

But the devil when questioned was adamant. He said that he was right and that he would prove it. He disobeyed due to his own intentions. Devil was not decieved or coaxed (misled) by any one. That was his own intentional mistake which becomes a sin. That is clear disobediance.

True

When he was arrogant and argued with God, thereafter he was despised and called Al-Shaitan, (The dare-devil, the open enemy of mankind). He is the enemy of all Jews and Muslims and Hindus and all mankind. The christians have to beware of him more than any one else.

I do agree that Satan is the enemy of all. I also agree that we have to be aware of Satan. But so do you.

There is no original sin.

False

It is a wrong story which has been made up o offer Jesus as a scapegoat (holy lamb) for the sins of mankind. But it had no use at all.

FALSE!

The sins of mankind did not vanish. They are increasing every day.

True

Ad why to punish an innocent man (Jesus) for the sins of the sinners? That is not fair.

Of course it’s not fair. But that is the way that God wanted it. That is the only way that God would be satisfied for the sins of man. Our own sacrifices in and of themselves mean nothing to God. We have to unite our sacrifices and our sufferings with those of Jesus on the cross. Then and only then do our sacrifices and sufferings mean something.

 

[AlegreFe]

I still say it was Eve, since God spoke to her first and asked what had happened. Satan was there to tempt, they had free will, they could of* (*s/b have) refused but didn’t.

It was both Adam AND Eve. You must be a man. A man playing the blame game just as Adam played.

God gave the command to Adam before Eve was even created. Who would you blame first knowing that information? Just because He spoke to Eve first does not mean that God only blamed Eve. 16 To the woman he said, “I will surely
multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.”
17 And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the
voice of your wife and have eaten of
the tree of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days
of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth
for you; and you shall eat the plants
of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face you shall
eat bread, till you return to the
ground, for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” Looks like the list of Adam’s punishment is longer than Eve’s. Even though Eve’s punishment is much more painful, God knew that Adam could not handle such pain.

 

[Nan_S]

They did not sin. They made a mistake of unintentional disobedience. To err is human. Forgiveness is divine. It was a mistake only. No real sin.

They intentionally ate what they had been specifically told to not eat. It was no mistake. If they had found the fruit on the ground and eaten it because it resembled another safe fruit, THAT would be unintentional disobedience.

What they did was no more unintentional than what your teenager does, when he helps himself to a slice of the fancy dessert you’ve prepared for the holiday supper tomorrow. It’s obviously wrong to anyone who stops and thinks about it for 3 1/2 seconds.

**

There is no original sin. It is a wrong story which has been made up o offer Jesus as a scapegoat (holy lamb) for the sins of mankind. But it had no use at all. The sins of mankind did not vanish. They are increasing every day. Ad why to punish an innocent man (Jesus) for the sins of the sinners? That is not fair

.**That only makes sense if you completely deny all evidence of Jesus’ divinity. Throughout their tenure as political leaders the Romans crucified thousands of Jews: religious, businessmen, craftsmen, and slaves. No one else even warrants a historical footnote. You don’t suppose that was because there was something different about this Jew, do you?