Which Was The Deceiver, Adam Or Eve?

[rmcmullan]

It’s beyond me how you can interpret the Garden of Eden story in anything other than a Christian context. Tossed out of the garden for disobedience, cast out from the presence of the Lord, subject to death. How can we possibly be brought back into God’s presence and overcome death without a Redeemer and a Resurrection? To quote Revelations,

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[Nickkname]

Genesis, Chapter 3:

1 Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made. The serpent asked the woman, “Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?” 2 The woman answered the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; 3 it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die! 5 No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad.” 6 The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves. 8 When they heard the sound of the LORD God moving about in the garden at the breezy time of the day, the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 The LORD God then called to the man and asked him, “Where are you?” 10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden; but I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid myself.” 11 Then he asked, “Who told you that you were naked? You have eaten, then, from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat!” 12 The man replied, “The woman whom you put here with me - she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it.” 13 The LORD God then asked the woman, “Why did you do such a thing?” The woman answered, “The serpent tricked me into it, so I ate it.” 14 Then the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you shall be banned from all the animals and from all the wild creatures; On your belly shall you crawl, and dirt shall you eat all the days of your life. 15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.” 16 To the woman he said: “I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master.” 17 To the man he said: "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat, “Cursed be the ground because of you! In toil shall you eat its yield all the days of your life. 18 Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to you, as you eat of the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat, Until you return to the ground, from which you were taken; For you are dirt, and to dirt you shall return.” 20 The man called his wife Eve, because she became the mother of all the living. 21 For the man and his wife the LORD God made leather garments, with which he clothed them. 22 Then the LORD God said: “See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever.” 23 The LORD God therefore banished him from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he had been taken. 24 When he expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Now, if you want to look at the text in a means to support a particular belief (such as man being the cause of all evil), than you’re going to read the text in that light - but it won’t mean you are reading it correctly. You must read the text in light of the teachings of the Church, who is the sole intrepreter of the Bible.

 

[Nickkname]

(Continued)

And on that note, let’s see what the Catechism has to say about this:

Paragraph 7. THE FALL

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine,257 and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”.258 The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace.259 We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.260

I. WHERE SIN ABOUNDED, GRACE ABOUNDED ALL THE MORE

The reality of sin

386 Sin is present in human history; any attempt to ignore it or to give this dark reality other names would be futile. To try to understand what sin is, one must first recognize the profound relation of man to God, for only in this relationship is the evil of sin unmasked in its true identity as humanity’s rejection of God and opposition to him, even as it continues to weigh heavy on human life and history.

387 Only the light of divine Revelation clarifies the reality of sin and particularly of the sin committed at mankind’s origins. Without the knowledge Revelation gives of God we cannot recognize sin clearly and are tempted to explain it as merely a developmental flaw, a psychological weakness, a mistake, or the necessary consequence of an inadequate social structure, etc. Only in the knowledge of God’s plan for man can we grasp that sin is an abuse of the freedom that God gives to created persons so that they are capable of loving him and loving one another.

 

[Nickkname]

(Continued)

Original sin - an essential truth of the faith

388 With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story’s ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.261 We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. the Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to “convict the world concerning sin”,262 by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Saviour of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. the Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

How to read the account of the fall

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265

II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature - to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275

 

[Nickkname]

(Continued)

III. ORIGINAL SIN

Freedom put to the test

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. the prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Man’s first sin

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Created in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286

401 After that first sin, the world is virtually inundated by sin There is Cain’s murder of his brother Abel and the universal corruption which follows in the wake of sin. Likewise, sin frequently manifests itself in the history of Israel, especially as infidelity to the God of the Covenant and as transgression of the Law of Moses. and even after Christ’s atonement, sin raises its head in countless ways among Christians.287 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition continually recall the presence and universality of sin in man’s history:

What Revelation makes known to us is confirmed by our own experience. For when man looks into his own heart he finds that he is drawn towards what is wrong and sunk in many evils which cannot come from his good creator. Often refusing to acknowledge God as his source, man has also upset the relationship which should link him to his last end, and at the same time he has broken the right order that should reign within himself as well as between himself and other men and all creatures.288

 

[Nickkname]

(Continued)

The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. and that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

406 The Church’s teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine’s reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam’s fault to bad example. the first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. the Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)296 and at the Council of Trent (1546).297

 

[Nickkname]

(Continued)

A hard battle. . .

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”.300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.301

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man’s life a battle:

The whole of man’s history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God’s grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.303

IV. “YOU DID NOT ABANDON HIM TO THE POWER OF DEATH”

410 After his fall, man was not abandoned by God. On the contrary, God calls him and in a mysterious way heralds the coming victory over evil and his restoration from his fall.304 This passage in Genesis is called the Protoevangelium (“first gospel”): the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers.

411 The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam” who, because he “became obedient unto death, even death on a cross”, makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam.305 Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the “Proto-evangelium” as Mary, the mother of Christ, the “new Eve”. Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.306

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 and St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308

IN BRIEF

413 “God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. . . It was through the devil’s envy that death entered the world” (⇒ Wis 1:13; ⇒ 2:24).

414 Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God.

415 “Although set by God in a state of rectitude man, enticed by the evil one, abused his freedom at the very start of history. He lifted himself up against God, and sought to attain his goal apart from him” (GS 13 # 1).

416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.

417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”.

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”).

419 “We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin is transmitted with human nature, “by propagation, not by imitation” and that it is. . . ‘proper to each’” (Paul VI, CPG # 16).

420 The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more” (⇒ Rom 5:20).

421 Christians believe that “the world has been established and kept in being by the Creator’s love; has fallen into slavery to sin but has been set free by Christ, crucified and risen to break the power of the evil one. . .” (GS 2 # 2).

 

[Nickkname]

And finally, what the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about this:

The Fall

73. How should we understand the reality of sin?

385-389

Sin is present in human history. This reality of sin can be understood clearly only in the light of divine revelation and above all in the light of Christ the Savior of all. Where sin abounded, he made grace to abound all the more.

74. What was the fall of the angels?

391-395
414

This expression indicates that Satan and the other demons, about which Sacred Scripture and the Tradition of the Church speak, were angels, created good by God. They were, however, transformed into evil because with a free and irrevocable choice they rejected God and his Kingdom, thus giving rise to the existence of hell. They try to associate human beings with their revolt against God. However, God has wrought in Christ a sure victory over the Evil One.

75. What was the first human sin?

396-403
415-417

When tempted by the devil, the first man and woman allowed trust in their Creator to die in their hearts. In their disobedience they wished to become “like God” but without God and not in accordance with God (Genesis 3:5). Thus, Adam and Eve immediately lost for themselves and for all their descendants the original grace of holiness and justice.

76. What is original sin?

404
419

Original sin, in which all human beings are born, is the state of deprivation of original holiness and justice. It is a sin “contracted” by us not “committed”; it is a state of birth and not a personal act. Because of the original unity of all human beings, it is transmitted to the descendants of Adam “not by imitation, but by propagation”. This transmission remains a mystery which we cannot fully understand.

77. What other consequences derive from original sin?

405-409
418

In consequence of original sin human nature, without being totally corrupted, is wounded in its natural powers. It is subject to ignorance, to suffering, and to the dominion of death and is inclined toward sin. This inclination is called concupiscence.

78. After the first sin, what did God do?

410-412
420

After the first sin the world was inundated with sin but God did not abandon man to the power of death. Rather, he foretold in a mysterious way in the “Protoevangelium” (Genesis 3:15) that evil would be conquered and that man would be lifted up from his fall. This was the first proclamation of the Messiah and Redeemer. Therefore, the fall would be called in the future a “happy fault” because it “gained for us so great a Redeemer” (Liturgy of the Easter Vigil).

 

[zerinus]

And finally, what the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about this: . . .

This is just a huge amount of cut and paste. It is abuse of the system, against forum rules, and waste of resources. It is not proper debate. Nobody is going to read all of this.

zerinus

 

[Nickkname]

It’s against forum rules?

 

[Ronald_E]

Please correct me if I am wrong. I have no problem about the teaching of sin in the world. I clearly see sin and its effects everyday in my vocation and in my personal life.
Is everything in the catechism dogma that must be believed or are there certain teachings that are dogmatic and the rest is up for discussion as revelation continues to influence the Church into a deeper understanding of God’s Love and Mystery?

The reason I ask this is because I can see areas in the catechism that are spoken through love and other areas that are not. Love only comes through the development of wisdom and where there is a lack of wisdom there is a lack of love. Where I am coming from in my inquiry into the Adam and Eve beginning is the disposition of heart in which it is interpreted.
As JP II has stated “…every soul that rises above itself raises up the world…” and describes this as the “law of ascent”. He also describes the “communion of sin” where each and every sin no matter how private harms the entire human family along with the Church. The effects of sin are seen in a hardness of heart. I am going through the catechism looking at the difference between a loving heart and a hardness of heart. I do not have a problem with the truth of our faith. I do have a problem when the truth is expressed or interpreted through a hardened disposition.
Jesus stated that we will be known as His disciples by how we love one another.

Rectitude is defined as accuracy, decency, goodness, honesty, etc. Love is not included in this definition. Wisdom is not included in this definition. Sinlessness is included.
We are free within the confines of what we know.
Another question about A and E, did they know and love God?

 

[Cathdefender]

Yes it is. But you also implied that God only blames Eve. You are wrong. He blames both.
This is God speaking to Adam; He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” Then God says to Adam; “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
Do you really think that God lets Adam get away with it and only blames Eve just because the serpant goes to Eve first? Adam was the one given the command when Eve wasn’t even created by God yet.

Good point Alegra

 

[Nickkname]

Please correct me if I am wrong. I have no problem about the teaching of sin in the world. I clearly see sin and its effects everyday in my vocation and in my personal life.
Is everything in the catechism dogma that must be believed or are there certain teachings that are dogmatic and the rest is up for discussion as revelation continues to influence the Church into a deeper understanding of God’s Love and Mystery?

The reason I ask this is because I can see areas in the catechism that are spoken through love and other areas that are not. Love only comes through the development of wisdom and where there is a lack of wisdom there is a lack of love. Where I am coming from in my inquiry into the Adam and Eve beginning is the disposition of heart in which it is interpreted.
As JP II has stated “…every soul that rises above itself raises up the world…” and describes this as the “law of ascent”. He also describes the “communion of sin” where each and every sin no matter how private harms the entire human family along with the Church. The effects of sin are seen in a hardness of heart. I am going through the catechism looking at the difference between a loving heart and a hardness of heart. I do not have a problem with the truth of our faith. I do have a problem when the truth is expressed or interpreted through a hardened disposition.
Jesus stated that we will be known as His disciples by how we love one another.

Rectitude is defined as accuracy, decency, goodness, honesty, etc. Love is not included in this definition. Wisdom is not included in this definition. Sinlessness is included.
We are free within the confines of what we know.
Another question about A and E, did they know and love God?

Everything in the Catechism is the teaching of the Church, not dogma or infallibility, but since it is Church teaching, we Catholics are bound to believe everything in the Catechism.

 

[Ronald_E]

Everything in the Catechism is the teaching of the Church, not dogma or infallibility, but since it is Church teaching, we Catholics are bound to believe everything in the Catechism.

I believe that everything that is dogma is then infallible. Everything that is not dogma then would be open for discussion and investigation. This is what I understand.
I left our faith when I was 18 not because of the dogmatic truths of our faith but because of the disposition in which they were taught. When God’s Grace brought me home I began to see that we are created by him to love and be loved. When fear enters into any loving relationship and is not resolved immediately then love is lost and we begin to harden our hearts in order to not be hurt again.
So I began to search scripture and the catechism to look for any evidence of a hardness of heart and how that may influence interpretation of scripture and develop as a theological idea.
I do this not to debate but to search with an openness of mind and heart.
I was led to this through praying the Rosary on my morning runs after I has spent an hour each morning reading scripture or the authors of books about our beautiful faith.
I LOVE OUR FAITH.

 

[dessert]

This is just a huge amount of cut and paste. It is abuse of the system, against forum rules, and waste of resources. It is not proper debate. Nobody is going to read all of this.

zerinus

I don’t see anything wrong with it, I read it.

 

[AlegreFe]

…
I left our faith when I was 18 not because of the dogmatic truths of our faith but because of the disposition in which they were taught. When God’s Grace brought me home I began to see that we are created by him to love and be loved. When fear enters into any loving relationship and is not resolved immediately then love is lost and we begin to harden our hearts in order to not be hurt again.
So I began to search scripture and the catechism to look for any evidence of a hardness of heart and how that may influence interpretation of scripture and develop as a theological idea.
I do this not to debate but to search with an openness of mind and heart.
I was led to this through praying the Rosary on my morning runs after I has spent an hour each morning reading scripture or the authors of books about our beautiful faith.
I LOVE OUR FAITH.

I totally agree that love is very important in our faith. After all, when all is said and done, love will be here. We will not need faith in the end because we will be with God. We will not need hope in the end because there is no need for it anymore as we will be with God. Love is the only thing that we will need and have in the end when we are with God. So we better have it now.

Every time Jesus asked why the apostles did not understand something, He asked if it was because their hearts were hardened. Of course Jesus knows everything but they didn’t and so they needed that fact pointed out to them.

Here are passages about people’s unbelief and hardened hearts;

35 Jesus said to them, “The light will be among you only a little while. Walk while you have the light, so that darkness may not overcome you. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where he is going.
36 While you have the light, believe in the light, so that you may become children of the light.”
After he had said this, Jesus left and hid from them.
37 Although he had performed so many signs in their presence they did not believe in him,
38 in order that the word which Isaiah the prophet spoke might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed our preaching, to whom has the might of the Lord been revealed?”
39 For this reason they could not believe, because again Isaiah said:
40 “He blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they might not see with their eyes and understand with their heart and be converted, and I would heal them.”
41 Isaiah said this because he saw his glory and spoke about him.
42 Nevertheless, many, even among the authorities, believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they did not acknowledge it openly in order not to be expelled from the synagogue.
43 For they preferred human praise to the glory of God.
Ron you have been given much wisdom. Praise the Lord!

Someone with a hardened heart because of rebellion or some kind of pain they endured in the past will not be able to interpret scripture in the way that it should be interpreted. Their hearts are hardened and as a result their eyes are covered and their mind is coated with pride. They need to “see” with their eyes in order to believe and have faith. Ah but you see, faith means just that, faith; believing in something without having any substantial evidence of it. We need to walk by faith and not by sight. It seems people who have hardened their hearts just want to see and touch so that they can believe. It’s too bad that even after Jesus presents them with “evidence,” they still do not “see” what’s right in front of their eyes.

We need to pray for all those people in pain and because of that pain they have hardened their hearts. Please pray for those people. God is love & mercy and they need God’s mercy. Please pray for me too?

 

[Nickkname]

I believe that everything that is dogma is then infallible. Everything that is not dogma then would be open for discussion and investigation. This is what I understand.
I left our faith when I was 18 not because of the dogmatic truths of our faith but because of the disposition in which they were taught. When God’s Grace brought me home I began to see that we are created by him to love and be loved. When fear enters into any loving relationship and is not resolved immediately then love is lost and we begin to harden our hearts in order to not be hurt again.
So I began to search scripture and the catechism to look for any evidence of a hardness of heart and how that may influence interpretation of scripture and develop as a theological idea.
I do this not to debate but to search with an openness of mind and heart.
I was led to this through praying the Rosary on my morning runs after I has spent an hour each morning reading scripture or the authors of books about our beautiful faith.
I LOVE OUR FAITH.

I must not have explained myself clearly. What I meant was, the Catechism itself is not dogma or doctrine - however, it contains Catholic dogma and doctrine (for example, the Immaculate Conception). This dose not mean, though, that the Catechism is infallible. It is the presentation of the teachings of the Church, and every Catholic must adhere to the truths of the Catholic Faith. Open your heart to the Holy Spirit, for he is the One who guides the Church; and listen to the voice of the Church, for she is the one who is the interpreter of the Bible.

 

[Ronald_E]

Someone with a hardened heart because of rebellion or some kind of pain they endured in the past will not be able to interpret scripture in the way that it should be interpreted. Their hearts are hardened and as a result their eyes are covered and their mind is coated with pride. They need to “see” with their eyes in order to believe and have faith. Ah but you see, faith means just that, faith; believing in something without having any substantial evidence of it. We need to walk by faith and not by sight. It seems people who have hardened their hearts just want to see and touch so that they can believe. It’s too bad that even after Jesus presents them with “evidence,” they still do not “see” what’s right in front of their eyes.

We need to pray for all those people in pain and because of that pain they have hardened their hearts. Please pray for those people. God is love & mercy and they need God’s mercy. Please pray for me too?

Sandy, I have seen many of your posts and I admire your wisdom and love for the Heart of Jesus that you most obviously live in. When you post a message I get a real sense of confidence and renewal about the love that is present in our Catholic faith. You have posted some of your history and just from that little bit of information about you I am extremely humbled and blessed by your presence here.
If Adam had seen in Eve what is also in you we would not be talking on this site.
However, Adam did not have the wisdom to see what is unseen to the human eye. Only through suffering with the help of God’s Love are we blessed with that kind of wisdom that allows us to see what is unseen.
God Bless You. You are in my prayers. I hope that is not a hindrance.

 

[AlegreFe]

Sandy, I have seen many of your posts and I admire your wisdom and love for the Heart of Jesus that you most obviously live in. When you post a message I get a real sense of confidence and renewal about the love that is present in our Catholic faith. You have posted some of your history and just from that little bit of information about you I am extremely humbled and blessed by your presence here.
If Adam had seen in Eve what is also in you we would not be talking on this site.
However, Adam did not have the wisdom to see what is unseen to the human eye. Only through suffering with the help of God’s Love are we blessed with that kind of wisdom that allows us to see what is unseen.
God Bless You. You are in my prayers. I hope that is not a hindrance.

Oh my, I am humbled, but humble I am not. Hindrance? Perhaps, but I hope not. I often try to pray the Litany of Humility because humble I am not. Thank you for your kind words and for keeping me in your prayers. You are in mine.

 

[dessert]

I find this all very protestantistic. You appear to be saying that the Protestant ‘literalist’ perspective is true then?

So who came first Adam or the dinosaurs?

Blessings and peace

Man creates dinosaurs and then dinosaurs eat man and woman inherits the earth