Which Was The Deceiver, Adam Or Eve?

[Nan_S]

In looking at the pagan beliefs, their objects of worship, and the hierarchy of their clerics, I have to wonder about the symbolism behind the Adam and Eve story.

Specifically this: Paganism was, and still is, very self-centered. Ancient pagans revered serpents as sources of wisdom. Look at the crown on the Egyptian Pharoah, for example. Ancient pagans believed that certain foods had spiritual power which gave wisdom and enlightenment. Ancient pagans had powerful priestesses as spiritual leaders who taught and reinforced the whole system, using sexual relations to seal the deal.

Wand to directly confront this belief system? Construct a story (Adam and Eve) showing that a serpent-guided female seeking personal enlightenment by eating certain foods was WRONG, and that males who followed that guidance were also wrong. Counter that in a patriarchial society with a right-belief in a male-led system focused on directly hearing and following the word of God.

Anyone else ever wonder about this?

 

[marymol]

Does not the Word of God tell us that it is the other way around - that it is the pagan world , that was influenced with the power . to come up with lies and to construct stories , to discredit a Good Father and His pure TRUTH !

 

[zerinus]

Anyone else ever wonder about this?

No!

zerinus

 

[Benadam]

Anyone else ever wonder about this?

The prophetic spirit isn’t bound to revelation of the future, it also reveals the unplumbed depths of the forgotten past.

Moses was shown the source of the spirituality practiced by the mother cults that surrounded the Hebrews. The historical source of that spirit is a distorted view of the genesis events also experienced by the forefather’s of the pagan people. The symbols used by any particular cult to preserve a distorted meaning of past events, are inherently bound up in the acts of the people who actually lived them and the distortion is exposed by the revelation of the truth about those events.

It’s dificult to put the concepts I’m trying to communicate into words so I’m not sure if I expressed my thinking on the subject in an understandable way.

 

[MHalsey]

I agree. How do you know God’s will? Where does it say they knew God’s will. Genesis was not written by them. How does a child know the significance of the parents’ will? By learning through exploration. The child does not know what disobedience is until pain is experienced. You are projecting on to A and E what you have learned through their exploration. Do you really think that if they knew the suffering they would experience in their human bodies as a result of their exploration that they would choose to gain knowledge of good and evil?

Hmm, God **commands **them to not eat of the fruit. That allows them to know God’s will. My children know the significance of my will through what I say, not the consequence of disobedience.

You seem to think that because they had no knowledge of suffering that they could not have sinned. By your argument, no one should go to Hell because none of us has ever experienced it.

If knowledge of good and evil is such a beautiful thing as you claim, why didn’t God just give it to Adam and Eve to begin with?? The answer to that is that the story is not about knowledge of good and evil. The story is about obedience to the Father. God could have made it the “Tree of Knowledge of Hot and Cold” instead of good and evil, and it would not change the outcome. Being disobedient to the father is what brought about sin and death not the fruit itself. We know that the knowledge of good and evil cannot be sinful in itself, because if it were, God himself would be evil.

You also seem to think that because they were innocent in the garden that they had no knowledge at all. In other words, they were ignorant of everything because they didn’t eat of the fruit. We know that’s not true because Adam names all the animals that are brought to him. Adam is not a child, as you claim, but a full grown man with some wisdom. Does it not then stand to reason that he also knew what disobeying God might mean?

 

[Ronald_E]

Hmm, God **commands **them to not eat of the fruit. That allows them to know God’s will. My children know the significance of my will through what I say, not the consequence of disobedience.

Do they know what a command is? Do your children know what a command is before they experience natural consequences or the imposition of your will on them?

You seem to think that because they had no knowledge of suffering that they could not have sinned.

Law educated Israel about sin.

By your argument, no one should go to Hell because none of us has ever experienced it.

You made this deduction, not I.

If knowledge of good and evil is such a beautiful thing as you claim, why didn’t God just give it to Adam and Eve to begin with??

You sound sarcastic. I am trying to explore in love and I know that God is Love. God knew what would happen before He created anything. In order to begin to know God I believe we must look at everything through the heart of Love. Anything that has been of value in my life has been learned through suffering. The only thing that I did not earn was God’s Grace that brought me Home 3 years ago after being away 40 years. God’s love brought me home and I am determined to look at everything from the beginning of creation to understand God’s Love.

The answer to that is that the story is not about knowledge of good and evil. The story is about obedience to the Father.

The story is about God creating human beings and giving us the freedom to know Him and love Him in a way that no other creature can. We are given the opportunity in these finite bodies to love what we cannot see. In order to do that we must transcend our human understanding and the only way to do that is to let go of the old man. When we only require obedience of our children and do not help them to know how they are created in God’s image and likeness they are left with an emptiness in their relationship with us and will then seek someone else to give them what they think will fill the void.

God could have made it the “Tree of Knowledge of Hot and Cold” instead of good and evil, and it would not change the outcome. Being disobedient to the father is what brought about sin and death not the fruit itself. We know that the knowledge of good and evil cannot be sinful in itself, because if it were, God himself would be evil.

Can you imagine the shock that Adam experienced when he became aware of good and evil and then experienced the consequences of this awareness as it penetrated his innocent relationship with God?! I can.

You also seem to think that because they were innocent in the garden that they had no knowledge at all. In other words, they were ignorant of everything because they didn’t eat of the fruit. We know that’s not true because Adam names all the animals that are brought to him. Adam is not a child, as you claim, but a full grown man with some wisdom. Does it not then stand to reason that he also knew what disobeying God might mean?

Adam had creatures brought to him by God. God was allowing Adam to learn through on the job training. Anything that Adam saw he named according to the 5 senses. He had the same approach when God brought the woman to him. Only after being aware of good and evil did the man give her the name Eve. Very interesting. Adam was gaining knowledge of his environment through the senses. Wisdom is only gained through the Holy Spirit Who is the Lord and Giver of Life. Isn’t it extremely interesting that the man named the woman Eve which translates to living after he became aware of good and evil?!
God Bless.

 

[Benadam]

Hmm, God **commands **them to not eat of the fruit. That allows them to know God’s will. My children know the significance of my will through what I say, not the consequence of disobedience.

MHalsey, you got my wheels turning with this statement

The method God used served the dignity of freedom I think.

example: my son is standing in front of the tv oblivious to the fact
that I can’t see what’s on tv.

I could just say "move’

or I can let him decide what he should do.

“If you stand there I can’t see the tv”…He decides it’s good to move.

t seems God did this too. After giving them the command he tells them why so they know they aren’t avoiding the act without sound reason. He told them if they do A, then B will happen.

 

[MHalsey]

Do they know what a command is? Do your children know what a command is before they experience natural consequences or the imposition of your will on them?

Again you are equating Adam and Eve to children. This is a false assumption. Adam and Eve were created as Man and Woman. Adam was not a child. He walked and talked with The Lord in the garden. What do you think they talked about? I’m sure Adam learned a great deal from God before the fall.

Law educated Israel about sin.

Perhaps, but sin was in the world before then. And many suffered for the consequence of that sin.

You made this deduction, not I.

Yes, based on your argument that they needed to experience the suffering to have free will and consequently did not sin. By that same argument, since I have not experienced Hell, I cannot do anything so wrong that I should condemned to it when I die. I have no free will because I have not experienced the suffering of Hell.

Note: I don’t believe this. Just trying to make a point.

You sound sarcastic. I am trying to explore in love and I know that God is Love. God knew what would happen before He created anything. In order to begin to know God I believe we must look at everything through the heart of Love. Anything that has been of value in my life has been learned through suffering. The only thing that I did not earn was God’s Grace that brought me Home 3 years ago after being away 40 years. God’s love brought me home and I am determined to look at everything from the beginning of creation to understand God’s Love.

That is wonderful for you. I really mean that. But that doesn’t mean we must suffer to understand God’s Love and Grace. It seems to me that you’re projecting your experience of suffering on to the story of Adam and Eve. Not everyone comes to the Father through suffering. Remember the story of Martha and Mary. Martha complains because she is made to do all the work while Mary sits at the feet of the Lord. Jesus rebukes her and says Mary has chosen the better portion.

The story is about God creating human beings and giving us the freedom to know Him and love Him in a way that no other creature can. We are given the opportunity in these finite bodies to love what we cannot see. In order to do that we must transcend our human understanding and the only way to do that is to let go of the old man. When we only require obedience of our children and do not help them to know how they are created in God’s image and likeness they are left with an emptiness in their relationship with us and will then seek someone else to give them what they think will fill the void.

I think you misunderstand. I don’t just demand obedience. I also walk and talk with my children attempting to share some of my wisdom imperfect though it may be. God did the same with Adam. He did not just put Adam in the garden and leave him alone. He walked with him and talked with him. Adam had a far different relationship with God than anyone else. He knew God before the fall. Which is why his fall is so meaningful for all of us and why we carry this original sin before our baptism.

Can you imagine the shock that Adam experienced when he became aware of good and evil and then experienced the consequences of this awareness as it penetrated his innocent relationship with God?! I can.

Nope, not one wit. Because as I said, Adam had a unique relationship with God.

Adam had creatures brought to him by God. God was allowing Adam to learn through on the job training. Anything that Adam saw he named according to the 5 senses. He had the same approach when God brought the woman to him. Only after being aware of good and evil did the man give her the name Eve. Very interesting. Adam was gaining knowledge of his environment through the senses. Wisdom is only gained through the Holy Spirit Who is the Lord and Giver of Life. Isn’t it extremely interesting that the man named the woman Eve which translates to living after he became aware of good and evil?!
God Bless.

No, when the woman is brought to him he shows his wisdom.

Gen 2:5 - **the man said: “This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of ‘her man’ this one has been taken.”
**
Based on the scripture, Adam is not aware of God’s “operation”. He sees the woman and by his wisdom, he understands where she comes from. He doesn’t get this by his senses.

While the naming of Eve is significant, I don’t it much bearing on the fall. Besides, I thought Eve meant mother of all the living. Which is also why our Blessed Mother is called the new Eve.

 

[Ronald_E]

MHalsey,
I must go to work now so I do not experience the known consequences of my actions. Adam had no wisdom. He had knowledge based on his senses.
If he really knew God why would he hide. He would know that God sees all and is everywhere.
I will get into this later.
Have a good day.

 

[mangy_dog]

Just curious to know which of these two do you believe betrayed God. Adam or Eve?

All you have to do with this question is slide the comma back a couple of words:

Which is, The Deceiver.

And then omit Adam and Eve.

Deceiver is but one of his ancient names: angel most foul; son of perdition; host of hell; satan etc etc etc.

Non suade mihi vana, sunt mala quae libas, ipse venea bibas.
Crux sacra sit mihi lux, nunquam draco sit mihi dux.

 

[Benadam]

MHalsey,
I must go to work now so I do not experience the known consequences of my actions. Adam had no wisdom. He had knowledge based on his senses.
If he really knew God why would he hide. He would know that God sees all and is everywhere.
I will get into this later.
Have a good day.

Hiding isn’t the litmus test of knowing God. Demons flee from God not because he hasn’t been fully revealed to them but because He has.

Adam’s lower faculties were completely subject to his higher faculties. so much so that his body made no involuntary movements. Ever wonder why involuntary movements of the body are embarrasing? They reveal our fallen state. A state that lacks wisdom because the higher faculties struggle with the lower for rule over the body.

God was fully revealed to Adam. Adam walked with God in the garden. The man to be able to do that again was rewarded with a body that wasn’t destined to decay… If you believe Enoch was not wise then you can say Adam wasn’t. The OT has a passage that states that no man is greater than Adam. Somehow I can’t imagine that distinction can be given to the unwise.

Adam hid because of the shame that rose up like a wall that divided his soul, it must have washed over him like waves pounding a beach when he heard God’s footsteps nearby. It isn’t lack of wisdom that produces shame. It’s the godless that feel no shame.

Oh, hoping you have a productive fulfilling work day.

 

[Ronald_E]

Hiding isn’t the litmus test of knowing God. Demons flee from God not because he hasn’t been fully revealed to them but because He has.

Adam’s lower faculties were completely subject to his higher faculties. so much so that his body made no involuntary movements. Ever wonder why involuntary movements of the body are embarrasing? They reveal our fallen state. A state that lacks wisdom because the higher faculties struggle with the lower for rule over the body.

God was fully revealed to Adam. Adam walked with God in the garden. The man to be able to do that again was rewarded with a body that wasn’t destined to decay… If you believe Enoch was not wise then you can say Adam wasn’t. The OT has a passage that states that no man is greater than Adam. Somehow I can’t imagine that distinction can be given to the unwise.

Adam hid because of the shame that rose up like a wall that divided his soul, it must have washed over him like waves pounding a beach when he heard God’s footsteps nearby. It isn’t lack of wisdom that produces shame. It’s the godless that feel no shame.

Oh, hoping you have a productive fulfilling work day.

I just spent two hours responding to your post and when I hit the submit everything disappeared and I was sent back to my email page. I am too tired to do everything tonight. More than likely it will be Wednesday.
God Bless

 

[Benadam]

I just spent two hours responding to your post and when I hit the submit everything disappeared and I was sent back to my email page. I am too tired to do everything tonight. More than likely it will be Wednesday.
God Bless

I appreciate your time and effort not to mention your view. My loss as well.

Rest well.