While Europe Slept

[cestusdei]

This book was written to show the current situation in Europe. It isn’t religious per se although it deals with Islam extensively. The author is a homosexual and not keen on Catholicism, so he can’t be accused of bias in our direction. But…he makes some excellent points about what is happening and what is to come. He has moved in a more conservative direction.

One point he makes is that while he doesn’t like Falwell etc. he doesn’t fear them since they don’t plan to stone him to death. He realizes now that Christian fundamentalism is nothing like the Islamic version. He even says some nice things about John Paul and Benedict.

 

[pro_universal]

He realizes now that Christian fundamentalism is nothing like the Islamic version.

He hasn’t been watching the news.

msnbc.msn.com/id/9102443/

The Rev. Fred Phelps, founder of Westboro Baptist in Kansas, contends that American soldiers are being killed in Iraq as vengeance from God for protecting a country that harbors gays. The church, which is not affiliated with a larger denomination, is made up mostly of Phelps’ children, grandchildren and in-laws.

 

[cestusdei]

That’s right. One family. Compared to several hundred million fanatical Muslims who rejoice when innocent kaffir blood is shed. I remember after 911 their dancing in the streets. I will NEVER forget.

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

He hasn’t been watching the news.

msnbc.msn.com/id/9102443/

That’s horrible, but let’s not kid ourselves into thinking 50 rednecks who hate gay people, are even a fraction as dangerous as the estimated 40,000 mujahadeen, who are ready to do al quaida’s bidding at a moments notice.

9/11 let’s never forget it, or trivialize it…

 

[pro_universal]

How many militia group members are there in the US? 4 million?

Do you all honestly believe that if the government here were as weak as a middle eastern government that they would restrain themselves to speech only?

Let’s not pretend that terrorism comes out of the blue. People are fighting the US because they think it wants to destroy them, and judging by the comments I’ve seen on this board, they’re right about at least some of us.

9/11 let’s never forget it, or trivialize it…

I do agree, and let us not also do it to others for any reason at all.

Extremism is becoming as much a problem in the US, and it’s much more dangerous here if you ask me. Our military and weapons can kill millions of people in short periods of time, so when we have congressmen saying “Nuke Mecca” and on this very board a priest saying “If we have to slaughter every last muslim, we should!”, I think we have as much cause to worry and reflect on our own society as anyone else in the world.

 

[cestusdei]

Ask any gay whether he would prefer to be “out” in the US or Saudi Arabia. Case closed.

 

[Eden]

pro_universal:

Extremism is becoming as much a problem in the US

What are you talking about? There are millions of Muslims who live in the U.S. unmolested. I don’t see decapitations, hostage-taking, suicide bombing of Muslims here. In fact, where are the mass-gatherings of anti-Muslims parading, burning flags, chanting, shooting rifles into the air and attempting to break into embassies?

and it’s much more dangerous here if you ask me

If that’s your response, I won’t ask you.

 

[pro_universal]

What are you talking about?

I am talking about making wars on middle eastern and other countries that end up costing hundreds of thousands of lives.

If that’s your response, I won’t ask you.

I think you misunderstood the point I made. I meant it is more dangerous for us to become militant and ready to kill women and children, because our American weapons are capable of killing millions of people. When terrorists decide to attack, they use improvised weapons and if they are hugely successful, kill thousands. If a military like the US decides to attack a country, it can kill millions of people in a day if it wants.

Hence, we have to be especially vigilant, lest we stop respecting human rights and start believing that it’s okay to kill huge numbers of people in the name of “fighting terror.”

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

I am talking about making wars on middle eastern and other countries that end up costing hundreds of thousands of lives.

I think you misunderstood the point I made. I meant it is more dangerous for us to become militant and ready to kill women and children, because our American weapons are capable of killing millions of people. When terrorists decide to attack, they use improvised weapons and if they are hugely successful, kill thousands. If a military like the US decides to attack a country, it can kill millions of people in a day if it wants.

Hence, we have to be especially vigilant, lest we stop respecting human rights and start believing that it’s okay to kill huge numbers of people in the name of “fighting terror.”

Take it to:

airamericaradio.com/

I hear this garbage all the time, blame America first, in an effort to remain charitable I’ll bow out now, but I will say as an ex Marine and vet, you liberal socialists who demonize America make me physically ill…

 

[pro_universal]

I hear this garbage all the time, blame America first, in an effort to remain charitable I’ll bow out now, but I will say as an ex Marine and vet, you liberal socialists who demonize America make me physically ill…

I respect and thank all members of our military for their service.

I think you are misunderstanding my point also. I am not a “blame america” hemp-wearing protest head. I don’t believe they are good for the country either. But I am a supporter of honesty, and any honest look at history will show that our country has indeed made mistakes and supported violence in the middle east in the past.

There are now people, including a Congressman, who say things like “let’s nuke mecca!” in the US. I am saying as an American that we shouldn’t let these people sway the rest of us to their way of thinking, so that we don’t end up becoming monsters. I think we’ve done a good job of maintaing tolerance and being sensible, and that’s being eroded by anti-muslim propaganda.

This isn’t about “blaming america first”, this is about being sensitive to the causes of terrorism and to the moral import of our choices when we respond to terrorism…so that we don’t become a nation that fights under the “let’s kill all them there muslims!” banner.

 

[Eden]

pro_universal:

I am talking about making wars on middle eastern and other countries that end up costing hundreds of thousands of lives.

I think you misunderstood the point I made. I meant it is more dangerous for us to become militant and ready to kill women and children, because our American weapons are capable of killing millions of people. When terrorists decide to attack, they use improvised weapons and if they are hugely successful, kill thousands. If a military like the US decides to attack a country, it can kill millions of people in a day if it wants.

Hence, we have to be especially vigilant, lest we stop respecting human rights and start believing that it’s okay to kill huge numbers of people in the name of “fighting terror.”

I think our country was very restrained in our response to 9/11. You can’t get a better test than that. So, I would appreciate if you would stop demonizing your own countrymen in your Islam apologetics.

 

[pro_universal]

I think our country was very restrained in our response to 9/11. You can’t get a better test than that. So, I would appreciate if you would stop demonizing your own countrymen in your Islam apologetics.

Where did I demonize all Americans???

What I did do was point out that there are extremists who call for violence here, against all muslims, and that they are putting out lots of anti-muslim propaganda with the aim of justifying ideas like the one put forth by Congressman Tom Tancredo: Using nuclear weapons to respond to terrorism.

My point was that we should argue against muslim bashing because it makes an unrestrained response more likely and more palatable, and that is a bad thing. After years of “Islam preaches killing everyone!” propaganda, who knows what will happen if God forbid there is another terror attack. I certainly don’t want to see my country start using evil means, and so I speak out against radicalism and hate now.

Eden, would you join me in affirming that no matter what happens, it will never be acceptable to kill millions of muslim civilians in response to terrorism?

 

[Eden]

pro_universal:

Where did I demonize all Americans???

What I did do was point out that there are extremists who call for violence here, against all muslims, and that they are putting out lots of anti-muslim propaganda with the aim of justifying ideas like the one put forth by Congressman Tom Tancredo: Using nuclear weapons to respond to terrorism.

You repeatedly portray Americans as ignorant, uninformed, xenophobic and unable to be restrained without a strong government. You are still in college, right? I wasn’t there that long ago myself. It wasn’t until after I graduated that I realized how brainwashed I was by relativist, liberal, socialist anti-American professors. You sound like you are parroting the worldview that your profs. have fed you.

My point was that we should argue against muslim bashing because it makes an unrestrained response more likely and more palatable, and that is a bad thing. After years of “Islam preaches killing everyone!” propaganda, who knows what will happen if God forbid there is another terror attack. I certainly don’t want to see my country start using evil means, and so I speak out against radicalism and hate now.

Can you explain to me why Muslims say we live in the “Theater of War” because we are non-believers?

Eden, would you join me in affirming that no matter what happens, it will never be acceptable to kill millions of muslim civilians in response to terrorism?

I don’t want to see innocent Muslim civilians killed. Unfortunately, I can’t rule out any responses to future terrorism. Bin Laden has said a new attack is coming in the U.S. If that comes to pass, I’m not going to commit myself now to saying “never” about the future. Hopefully, we will *never *have another terrorist attack on our soil.

Can you commit yourself to agreeing that terrorist attacks by Muslims against Americans are never acceptable?

 

[pro_universal]

You repeatedly portray Americans as ignorant, uninformed, xenophobic and unable to be restrained without a strong government. You are still in college, right? I wasn’t there that long ago myself.

No I do not. I point out the clear and obvious fact that we have radical groups too, and that without keeping a check on them, they can do damage-even with proportionally small numbers. I love my country, but that doesn’t mean I have to believe every last person in it is good and would never do bad.

It wasn’t until after I graduated that I realized how brainwashed I was by relativist, liberal, socialist anti-American professors.

Many of my professors (no longer, I finished there) were Priests. I am a product of the Catholic system.

Can you explain to me why Muslims say we live in the “Theater of War” because we are non-believers?

They don’t. Radical islamists do, but just like the KKK doesn’t represent america, those groups do not represent all muslims.

Here’s a source you should be happy trusting on this point:

americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=1064&issueID=345

I quote:

As the tradition developed, Muslim scholars had occasion to confront a variety of questions raised by battlefield experience. They knew, for example, about “collateral damage,” about killings covered by the rule of double effect and other categories familiar from the just war tradition. Their treatments of these suggest that the best way to understand the prophetic sayings is as follows: No one fighting in an Islamic cause should ever directly and intentionally target noncombatants.

How, then, can one regard the judgment of Osama bin Laden as “Islamic”? The short answer is, one cannot.

I don’t want to see innocent Muslim civilians killed. Unfortunately, I can’t rule out any responses to future terrorism.

Having spent a fair amount of time (in that great Catholic system) studying the Catholic tradition of the Just War, I can say with certainty that your faith requires you rule out some responses to terrorism. Attacking civilians for the purpose of reprisal or deterrence is prohibited by the Church, always has been, and is a deeply immoral idea. If you won’t buy my reasoning that it’s immoral to kill civilians in response to what a group of terrorists do, you should at least be willing to read the Church’s teaching on the subject:

Even if the cause is just, the grave moral obligation to respect the principles of non-combatant immunity and proportionality remains in force and must govern our nation’s political and military decisions. Indiscriminate attacks on innocent people, whether by terrorists or in war, threaten the common good. The continuing priority must be to ensure that military force is directed at those who use terror and those who assist them, not at the Afghan people or Islam. We welcome the stated commitment to do everything possible to avoid civilian casualties, a commitment that must be sustained over the long-term. We must not only act justly but be perceived as acting justly if we are to succeed in winning popular support against terrorism.

usccb.org/sdwp/sept11.htm
As for this:

Can you commit yourself to agreeing that terrorist attacks by Muslims against Americans are never acceptable?

I already have, numerous times. Terrorism against civilians is always wrong.

 

[Eden]

Just wanted to add, that if you are *truly *Catholic and truly care about Muslims you would spend most of your time here trying to teach them the Truth of our faith and help save some souls instead of spending all of your time defending Islam.

But it’s obvious you believe all religions are equal and that there is no one Truth so teaching your faith is not a priority.

 

[pro_universal]

Just wanted to add, that if you are truly Catholic and truly care about Muslims you would spend most of your time here trying to teach them the Truth of our faith and help save some souls instead of spending all of your time defending Islam.

I care about Christians too. That’s why I don’t want us to be deceived by bias and hatred into abandoning our tradition of peace.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Yo, ho, ho, pro_universal! Fly your true flag please! Remember if you waddle like a duck and quack like a duck…you must be…a duck!

 

[Eden]

pro_universal:

I care about Christians too. That’s why I don’t want us to be deceived by bias and hatred into abandoning our tradition of peace.

I don’t believe you are Catholic anymore. You are definitely Muslim. At least I know where you are coming from now - and it’s not a Catholic Church.

 

[Libero]

He hasn’t been watching the news.

msnbc.msn.com/id/9102443/

The “Rev” Fred Phelps is a joke, and a bigot - I do not like him anywho, with that out of the way…

Isn’t this thread meant to be about that fantastic place - Europe.

 

[Libero]

Eden:

I don’t believe you are Catholic anymore. You are definitely Muslim. At least I know where you are coming from now - and it’s not a Catholic Church.

I doubt it, just because somebody chooses not to condemn Islam, that does not mean they are not Catholic. I do not go around trying to convert Muslims, I further do not want to make sweeping generalisations about how extreme Islam is, and the millions of fanatics - RUBBISH.

There are no where near as many fanatical extremist Muslims as people would have us believe. I go to school with many Muslims, and they all seem like good people.

Choosing to defend Islam from callous generalisations and attacks does not make one a Muslim, nor does it mean one is no longer Catholic.