While Europe Slept

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We can never attain world peace if this form of hatred is kept, Ecummenical dialouge is required, and an intelligent understanding of one anothers religions.
Absolutely. We should live in a world where the first thing we do when there is violence is say “what is the cause of this and how can we help make peace?”

We should not have to listen to of all people a Priest speaking publically in favor of using nukes on Muslim holy sites. That’s just inexcusable, and it’s as bad an attitude as the radical groups have.
 
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Shadowcry:
Denmark and france treated its immigrants like second class citizens
But also gave them better jobs and better access to education. If life was better in their home countries, why would they need to go to Denmark or France?
 
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pro_universal:
Absolutely. We should live in a world where the first thing we do when there is violence is say “what is the cause of this and how can we help make peace?”
What’s the cause of violence?

Islam
 
onesimplemind,

One word answers are virtually always wrong.

The cause of violence is the same as in africa and south america: oppression, injustice, and violence. The radical islamist movement grew up in direct response to dictatorships and war, and it is the bad fruit of a poisoned tree. Remove the arms of the dictators and let the people live in peace, and we can start solving the problem…attacking the religion of the people is just one more insult on top of a history of oppression and violence that will do no one, especially not us, any good.
 
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cestusdei:
At every terrorist attack I see pics on TV of Muslims celebrating. They sure did after 911. Happy as clams. In the UK you have guys on trial that were celebrating. I listened to some of your Muslims at Hyde Park on speakers corner. They didn’t sound very moderate to me. You might want to learn arabic just in case.
Well did you also look at the response that the Muslim Council of Britain gave to these people - they are the representatives of Islam, not some hyped up misguided people.

Christianity has had just as many horrible and terrible things happen. Look at Northern Ireland, look at the attrocities there, the children killed by car bombs, this was because of the trivial differences between Protestants and Catholics - but did these fanatics represent the true Christian feeling - NO!! All religions have fanatics, it is merely unfortunate that Islam, at this moment in time is being influenced by a number who have gained power.
 
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Libero:
Look at Northern Ireland, look at the attrocities there, the children killed by car bombs, this was because of the trivial differences between Protestants and Catholics - but did these fanatics represent the true Christian feeling - NO!! All religions have fanatics, it is merely unfortunate that Islam, at this moment in time is being influenced by a number who have gained power.
The car bombs were not because of religion but politics.
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Shadowcry:
Denmark and france treated its immigrants like second class citizens.
What a load of rubbish. Just because immigrants children refuse to integrate and then run rampage, you heap the blame on France?

And what has Denmark done? Denmark is one of the most friendly countries in Europe. I assume you’re another of these people assuming Jyllands-Posten = Denmark :rolleyes:

You want a country which treats people like second-class citizens? Let’s start with Saudi Arabia…
 
Christus Rex:
The car bombs were not because of religion but politics.
There is a combination of both, what was political (as in “Old” IRA) became religious soon, the conflict became fueled by an ignorant hatred of one anothers denomination, with supposedly good Christian people such as “The Rev.” “Dr” Ian Paisley adding more fuel to the increasingly dangerous fire.
 
The cause of 911 was poverty!? Look at the profiles of many of the terrorists. Are they from poor uneducated homes? No, they are often middle class or wealthy. Many came to school in the West. Osama bin Laden was from one of the wealthiest families in Saudi Arabia. It is pure tripe to argue that injustice or oppression is the cause of terrorism when those doing it haven’t suffered. This is standard Islamic terrorist apologetics from our Muslim friend pro. Right out of the playbook.
 
It is pure tripe to argue that injustice or oppression is the cause of terrorism when those doing it haven’t suffered. This is standard Islamic terrorist apologetics from our Muslim friend pro. Right out of the playbook.
This is an example of you seeing the trees but missing the forest.

The impetus to act for people like Bin Laden is warfare and poverty. This is how extremist ideas find a place to root, and how they justify themselves. The individuals who lead the charge do not have to be poor themselves to notice that their societies have been attacked and that most living there are poor and oppressed.

Most revolutionaries in history came from middle class, relatively well off backgrounds…but that doesn’t make all of those class-based revolutions in Europe unconnected to poverty and injustice. Similarly, the leaders of the American revolution were wealthy and well connected for the most part…but that doesn’t mean that economics had nothing to do with the revolution.
 
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pro_universal:
onesimplemind,

One word answers are virtually always wrong.

The cause of violence is the same as in africa and south america: oppression, injustice, and violence. The radical islamist movement grew up in direct response to dictatorships and war, and it is the bad fruit of a poisoned tree. Remove the arms of the dictators and let the people live in peace, and we can start solving the problem…attacking the religion of the people is just one more insult on top of a history of oppression and violence that will do no one, especially not us, any good.
I don’t see Venezuelans threatening suicide attacks, I don’t hear of Cubans threatening to blow up malls in Florida. I don’t see the North Koreans hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings. I never hear of Chinese Communists wanting the USA to submit to Chinese Communist ideology. As much as I am suspicious of these guys, these dictatorships haven’t spawned the type of activities that are associated with Islamic groups.

Why don’t we all accept the fact that 90% or so of the armed-conflicts around the world involve muslims. Giving excuses for Islam is not going to change the fact that Islam teaches violence.
 
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onesimplemind:
I don’t see Venezuelans threatening suicide attacks, I don’t hear of Cubans threatening to blow up malls in Florida. I don’t see the North Koreans hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings. I never hear of Chinese Communists wanting the USA to submit to Chinese Communist ideology. As much as I am suspicious of these guys, these dictatorships haven’t spawned the type of activities that are associated with Islamic groups.
Sssh … don’t give them any ideas! :bigyikes:
 
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pro_universal:
The impetus to act for people like Bin Laden is warfare and poverty. This is how extremist ideas find a place to root, and how they justify themselves. The individuals who lead the charge do not have to be poor themselves to notice that their societies have been attacked and that most living there are poor and oppressed.
You make Osama sound like a noble freedom- fighter struggling for the little man, struggling for equality, fighting against the imperialist western powers that seek to oppress the world.

How about describing Osama as he is. An Islamic terrorist seeking to oppress the world under an Islamic rule where dhimmis can suck up to the muslims overlords.
 
As much as I am suspicious of these guys, these dictatorships haven’t spawned the type of activities that are associated with Islamic groups
You cannot be serious. The colombian rebels kill more people in Colombia every year than Al Qaeda terrorism does worldwide.

North Korea has admitted kidnapping and torturing people from different countries all over southeast asia, and it now threatens the world with Nuclear weapons.

The drugs that are run by Venezuelan gangs destroy life and happiness everywhere they go…in numbers that are measured by millions, not thousands.

China…perhaps they haven’t turned to the US or Taiwan yet because they are still too busy obliterating the culture of Tibet, or murdering any Chinese civilian who opposes having his home flooded by public projects.
Why don’t we all accept the fact that 90% or so of the armed-conflicts around the world involve muslims. Giving excuses for Islam is not going to change the fact that Islam teaches violence.
This 90 percent statistic is one of those 99.999 percent of statistics that are made up on the spot without any reference to the data whatsoever.
 
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onesimplemind:
You make Osama sound like a noble freedom- fighter struggling for the little man, struggling for equality, fighting against the imperialist western powers that seek to oppress the world.

How about describing Osama as he is. An Islamic terrorist seeking to oppress the world under an Islamic rule where dhimmis can suck up to the muslims overlords.
He is a war criminal and a terrorist. I was pointing out the conditions from which he sprang, which are clearly conditions of oppression and war. If you turn a blind eye to war and oppression, you will get radicals…just like in Colombia, just like in Afghanistan, just like in Northern Ireland.

Please provide a statement where Osama Bin Laden says he wants to conquer the whole world.
 
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pro_universal:
He is a war criminal and a terrorist. I was pointing out the conditions from which he sprang, which are clearly conditions of oppression and war. If you turn a blind eye to war and oppression, you will get radicals…just like in Colombia, just like in Afghanistan, just like in Northern Ireland.

Please provide a statement where Osama Bin Laden says he wants to conquer the whole world.
I never said Osama wanted to conquer the world, but what he wants is just as bad.

“We should fully understand our religion. Fighting is a part of our religion and our Sharia [an Islamic legal code]. Those who love God and his Prophet and this religion cannot deny that. Whoever denies even a minor tenet of our religion commits the gravest sin in Islam.”-Osama quote

5 billion people who refuse to follow Islam are violating a minor tenet of Islam and therefore Osama wants to fight every non-muslims until they submit.

If you turn a blind-eye to the religion that preaches this stuff, you will get religious radicals just like Osama. Just like who is fighting in 90% of the conflicts throughout the world.
 
If you turn a blind-eye to the religion that preaches this stuff, you will get religious radicals just like Osama. Just like who is fighting in 90% of the conflicts throughout the world.

The religion doesn’t preach violence. Just as some Catholics have adapted and perverted Catholic identity to support the struggle in Northern Ireland, Osama has done the same with Islam. It’s pretty plain if you take a look at what all the orthodox scholars of Islam say, versus what Osama and his own group say. No one in Islam agrees with their interpretation, so to say that the religion teaches violence is simply error.

As for “90%”, it’s wrong. The only way you can arrive at that conclusion is to ignore conflict in huge swaths of territory, like Northern India, South East Asia, Central Africa, Southern Africa, Sri Lanka, and South America.
 
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pro_universal:
The religion doesn’t preach violence. Just as some Catholics have adapted and perverted Catholic identity to support the struggle in Northern Ireland, Osama has done the same with Islam. It’s pretty plain if you take a look at what all the orthodox scholars of Islam say, versus what Osama and his own group say. No one in Islam agrees with their interpretation, so to say that the religion teaches violence is simply error.

As for “90%”, it’s wrong. The only way you can arrive at that conclusion is to ignore conflict in huge swaths of territory, like Northern India, South East Asia, Central Africa, Southern Africa, Sri Lanka, and South America.
There is a vast difference between Catholics corrupting the teachings of Jesus and Muslims adhering to the teachings of Mohammed. We all know the Koran teaches to kill the unbeliever and we all know that “people of the Book” are to be dhimmitized.

As for your denial about the number of conflicts that include muslims, how is this for huge swaths of territory?

Iraq insurgency, War on Terror, war in afghanistan, Russia vs Chechnya, Armenian-Azerbijan conflict, Phillipine Moro conflict, Indonesian Christian-Muslim conflicts, Sudanese Civil War, Indian Conflict with Kashmir seperatists, Isreal vs Hezbollah, Isreal vs Palestinian militants, Côte d’Ivoire civil conflict, Hindu-Muslim violence in India, Niger Delta Conflict, Civil War in Uganda, Wazaristan war in Pakistan, Chadian-Sudanese Conflict…all these conflicts include Muslims. There are more, you want me to keep going?
 
The list of conflicts you can think up off hand is not a statistically valid method of computing “90 percent” of conflicts.
There is a vast difference between Catholics corrupting the teachings of Jesus and Muslims adhering to the teachings of Mohammed. We all know the Koran teaches to kill the unbeliever and we all know that “people of the Book” are to be dhimmitized.
You keep claiming this, but I posted an Orthodox Muslim source to specifically refute it. This is your idea about the religion, not what most Muslims see in it, so it’s really not relevant to the discussion.
 
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pro_universal:
The list of conflicts you can think up off hand is not a statistically valid method of computing “90 percent” of conflicts.

You keep claiming this, but I posted an Orthodox Muslim source to specifically refute it. This is your idea about the religion, not what most Muslims see in it, so it’s really not relevant to the discussion.
Explain to me what a statistically valid method is for computing the number of conflicts in the world. You want me to compute the number of muslims participating in those conflicts, you aint gonna like that either. How about you tell me how I should twist those numbers to your liking?

I don’t need to read how an Orthodox Muslim source likes twisting their own teachings in a public relation campaign to decieve others. You obviously don’t know about Islamic teaching that says its acceptable to lie to the infidel in order to take advantage. My idea about Islam is how muslims try to affect my life by terrorizing my country, try to influence my country’s politics, and try to influence my country’s freedom of speech all in the name of Allah.
 
Pro Universal said

“As for “90%”, it’s wrong. The only way you can arrive at that conclusion is to ignore conflict in huge swaths of territory, like Northern India, South East Asia, Central Africa, Southern Africa, Sri Lanka, and South America.”
:confused:
What conflict in Northern India? Do you mean Kashmire? its funded, motivated and planned by muslim jihadists. Nothing to do with the local people who certainly don’t want to go to pakistan.
 
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