While Europe Slept

[pro_universal]

No, I mean the maoist rebels that terrorize the mountains for India.

Statistically valid would be you use a sampling method or tally up all the conflicts in the world and then see what percentage have to do with Islam.

 

[onesimplemind]

pro_universal:

No, I mean the maoist rebels that terrorize the mountains for India.

Statistically valid would be you use a sampling method or tally up all the conflicts in the world and then see what percentage have to do with Islam.

You want more? Indonesian Buddhists against Muslims, Georgian Muslims vs Slavs, Cypress Muslims vs Greeks, Albania, Uzbekistan, Algeria, Lebanon, the brewing Iraqi civil war, Kosovo, Macedonia…are you trying to make me wear out my keyboard or something because you know there is more.

 

[Muslim]

to summarize everything.
a “muslim” kills a person who happens to be “Christian” - ohh those barbaric jihadist cult hate mongering people. nuke them. Islam is evil

a “Christian” kills a person who happens to be “muslim” - ohh he is so misguided, let God show him the right path, etc.

a “muslim” commits a crime, etc. - Islam is evil

a “Christian” commits a crime, etc - that individual is evil.

btw Rwanda is a Christian country… anyone remembers that genocide? is it called a Christian genocide by Muslims? no, because a lot of us arent ignorant.

 

[radhika]

pro_universal:

No, I mean the maoist rebels that terrorize the mountains for India.

Statistically valid would be you use a sampling method or tally up all the conflicts in the world and then see what percentage have to do with Islam.

The maooists are a bunch of lunatics, who are being pandered to be some of our politicians for their own nefarios ends. They DO not leave bombs at railway stations or temples for unsuspecting people to be killed.Either way these "maoists’ are not such a big problem as you seem to think.

 

[onesimplemind]

Muslim:

btw Rwanda is a Christian country… anyone remembers that genocide? is it called a Christian genocide by Muslims? no, because a lot of us arent ignorant.

Anyone remember the Armenian Genocide? Committed an actual Islamic Caliphate? We aren’t all ignorant so stop trying to equivocate.

 

[pro_universal]

onesimplemind:

Anyone remember the Armenian Genocide? Committed an actual Islamic Caliphate? We aren’t all ignorant so stop trying to equivocate.

Except that’s wrong. The Secularist Young Turk party was behind it. Turkish secularist nationalism was the root of that problem, but you assumed it was the “Caliphate” because you didn’t read into it.

No one is trying to equivocate. What I’m trying to do is prevent you from turning this into a thread for hypocrites…ie, people who condemn islam for things done by muslims, when they don’t condemn any other religion for the very same thing.

 

[onesimplemind]

pro_universal:

Except that’s wrong. The Secularist Young Turk party was behind it. Turkish secularist nationalism was the root of that problem, but you assumed it was the “Caliphate” because you didn’t read into it.

No one is trying to equivocate. What I’m trying to do is prevent you from turning this into a thread for hypocrites…ie, people who condemn islam for things done by muslims, when they don’t condemn any other religion for the very same thing.

So it wasn’t a Caliphate even though recognized as one until 1924?

umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/plan.html

Are you sure Islam had nothing to do with it? Islamic teaching commands the conversion of non-muslims or else, I wonder what happened to the Armenians and why?

Modernizing politics is not called secularization, its called trying to emulate the greater European powers. Interpretating Islam in their own way is not secular. Admittedly, the Young Turks tried at first to make the Ottoman Empire totally secular but gave up almost immediatly. Instead they just “modernized” Islam. The Young Turks desired an elite status of Muslim ethnic turks, and ushered in a strategy called Ottomanism. The Ottoman Empire was still considered a Caliphate, with a modernized government and Islamic beliefs, at the time of the Armenian Genocide.

Ottomanism was the root problem, this consisted of modernization of politics, nationalism, and a new brand of Islam. You can’t take out the Islam because the Young Turks were forced to accept it. Islamic teaching just made their dirty deeds more acceptable.

If the Armenian Genocide was purely nationalistic and secular, how come I haven’t heard of the Kurdish Genocide of 1915? There is a big difference in their religious beliefs

The only point I have to admit, in accordance with Islamic teachings, is that the Armenians are “people of the Book” and should have only been held in dhimmi status. Genocide is where the Turks went too far, but that rule wouldn’t have applied to non-christians or non-jews

Convince me again that Islamic teachings don’t cause violence.

 

[pro_universal]

If the Armenian Genocide was purely nationalistic and secular, how come I haven’t heard of the Kurdish Genocide of 1915?

Because the Kurds aren’t as good at getting the message out and there aren’t as many Kurdish communities in the west.

I can see from your post that you actually read something, and are now searching for a way to tie the secularist movement in Turkey to the religious government somehow.

Islam does not command killing in the name of conversion. If it did, how come all those Armenians weren’t wiped out during the 1300 years or so the Turks controlled the territory? It would have been easy over such a long period, yet no such thing happened…how do you explain that, if in fact Islam requires killing anyone who isn’t muslim?

 

[onesimplemind]

pro_universal:

Because the Kurds aren’t as good at getting the message out and there aren’t as many Kurdish communities in the west.

I can see from your post that you actually read something, and are now searching for a way to tie the secularist movement in Turkey to the religious government somehow.

Islam does not command killing in the name of conversion. If it did, how come all those Armenians weren’t wiped out during the 1300 years or so the Turks controlled the territory? It would have been easy over such a long period, yet no such thing happened…how do you explain that, if in fact Islam requires killing anyone who isn’t muslim?

The Kurds helped the Turks with the genocide.

Islam commands that non-muslim “people of the book” be treated as second class citizens. The Young Turks knew that the Ottoman Empire was sick. The Young Turks thought that these Christians who were successful business-men could be a threat. The Young Turks seized upon the fact that the Armenians were just dhimmis, had no real rights due to that, and were easy pickings because they have been known and accepted as second-class citizens for ages.

That Islamic teaching that “people of the book are to be treated as dhimmis” is the first stepping stone to genocide.

Ever what happened to the thriving Christian communities of Northern Africa? Carthage was an extension of Europe pre Islam. The ethnicities were generally European or Jewish. Now the city is 98% Arab. The question is why?

Why are North African cities Arab now when they were not 1300 years ago, there are no records of migration or flight? What could have caused this?

 

[onesimplemind]

pro_universal:

Islam does not command killing in the name of conversion.

Tabari IX:69 “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”

Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

(Fitnah is disbelief or some kind of non-muslim belief)

Qur’an 3:85 “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Surrender), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who are losers.”

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah is worse than slaughter.”

Thats debatable… but it sure seems Islam makes killing unbelievers something you don’t need to feel guilty over.

 

[Muslim]

all that talk about second class citizens, blah blah blah…
look at immigrants or illegal immigrants… they are treatedlike second or third class citizens. look at africans and indians in europe for hundreds of years. they were treated like nobody. you guys act like you are the savior of freedom and equal treatment, when women werent even allowed to vote until recently or own properties. look at the Crusades, spanish inquisition, etc.
europe raped and pillaged everything in its way and now talks about freedom, what a joke.
Quran also says to “Fight in the way of Allah, but do not transgress any limits” and I would imagine, killing somebody just MIGHT transgress limits.
and whats wrong with Jizya? they had to pay that because they did not pay Zakat which all Muslims did. its tax. we are taxed here too, so what?

 

[Libero]

onesimplemind:

Tabari IX:69 “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”

Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

(Fitnah is disbelief or some kind of non-muslim belief)

Qur’an 3:85 “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Surrender), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who are losers.”

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah is worse than slaughter.”

Thats debatable… but it sure seems Islam makes killing unbelievers something you don’t need to feel guilty over.

Nice job making Islam seem as crude as possible, but of course you say this whilst overlooking the less desirable messages of our religion. The messages of hate and violence, the ones that seem to say to Christians “Don’t worry, you be good, and when you are in heaven you can watch all of the heretics burning in hell” This sense of divine retribution that runs so much through our scripture, as if to suggest that a perverse satisfaction awaits the “good” Christians as they can be safe in the knowledge that the dissidents are in for an eternity of suffering.

The stories that show God saving his favourite children, and standing by as the children he doesn’t like are all killed, the stories of God extracting revenge on the children who upset him, but he still loves them at the same time…

Our religion can seem just as gruesome, just as primitive and unreasonable if you search hard enough…

 

[onesimplemind]

Muslim:

all that talk about second class citizens, blah blah blah…
look at immigrants or illegal immigrants… they are treatedlike second or third class citizens. look at africans and indians in europe for hundreds of years. they were treated like nobody. you guys act like you are the savior of freedom and equal treatment, when women werent even allowed to vote until recently or own properties. look at the Crusades, spanish inquisition, etc.
europe raped and pillaged everything in its way and now talks about freedom, what a joke.

Maybe you don’t understand. Bad stuff always happens to second-class citizens and you gave some good examples of that. There is a huge difference that you are ignoring . The examples you are giving are the actions of power hungry people not religous precepts. Islam is a teaching of a power-hungry person. Islam teaches to dhimmitize unbelievers. It makes it alot easier to persecute or kill when religions teaches this stuff.

 

[onesimplemind]

Libero:

Nice job making Islam seem as crude as possible, but of course you say this whilst overlooking the less desirable messages of our religion. The messages of hate and violence, the ones that seem to say to Christians “Don’t worry, you be good, and when you are in heaven you can watch all of the heretics burning in hell” This sense of divine retribution that runs so much through our scripture, as if to suggest that a perverse satisfaction awaits the “good” Christians as they can be safe in the knowledge that the dissidents are in for an eternity of suffering.

The stories that show God saving his favourite children, and standing by as the children he doesn’t like are all killed, the stories of God extracting revenge on the children who upset him, but he still loves them at the same time…

Our religion can seem just as gruesome, just as primitive and unreasonable if you search hard enough…

The Old Testament is a history of the struggles of the Jewish people. If God wants to protect His nation, people have to die.

Those days are long gone and there is a new teaching. Is that teaching to go out and conquer, treat unbelievers like second class citizens, jihad al-asgar?

Christians who burn heritics at the stake are not good Christians. Muslims that conquer the lands of the unbeliever, kill a prostelytizing Christian, force submission on whole populations, die gloriously in suicide bombing a cafe are good muslims.

 

[Muslim]

onesimplemind:

Maybe you don’t understand. Bad stuff always happens to second-class citizens and you gave some good examples of that. There is a huge difference that you are ignoring . The examples you are giving are the actions of power hungry people not religous precepts. Islam is a teaching of a power-hungry person. Islam teaches to dhimmitize unbelievers. It makes it alot easier to persecute or kill when religions teaches this stuff.

no, not really. you are ignoring everything and sticking to violent passages which no matter how many times people will tell you is out of context, you will still believ in them. you know who else believes blindly in those passages? osama bin laden and the likes.

 

[onesimplemind]

Muslim:

no, not really. you are ignoring everything and sticking to violent passages which no matter how many times people will tell you is out of context, you will still believ in them. you know who else believes blindly in those passages? osama bin laden and the likes.

…and just about every Muslim country that dhimmitizes people

 

[pro_universal]

Why are North African cities Arab now when they were not 1300 years ago, there are no records of migration or flight? What could have caused this?

Maybe the fact that government was conducted in Arabic caused all the people living there to learn Arabic, and then to convert to Islam over time…as happened in Europe in one way or another with various hordes.

There still are Berbers in North Africa, btw. I just met one the other day.

 

[Shadowcry]

onesimplemind:

The Old Testament is a history of the struggles of the Jewish people. If God wants to protect His nation, people have to die.

Those days are long gone and there is a new teaching. Is that teaching to go out and conquer, treat unbelievers like second class citizens, jihad al-asgar?

Christians who burn heritics at the stake are not good Christians. Muslims that conquer the lands of the unbeliever, kill a prostelytizing Christian, force submission on whole populations, die gloriously in suicide bombing a cafe are good muslims.

Prove it.

 

[onesimplemind]

pro_universal:

Maybe the fact that government was conducted in Arabic caused all the people living there to learn Arabic, and then to convert to Islam over time…as happened in Europe in one way or another with various hordes.

Is that what happens to Iberians, Romans, Visigoths, Greeks, and Jews? They just gave up their identity and became Arabs because Islam was just so much better?

Uh…

In terms of hordes and conquests, the hordes respected and adopted Christianity. There was an opposite effect there. Unless the Roman Empire secretly became powerful again and forced mass conversion on the barbarians without anyone looking.

 

[pro_universal]

onesimplemind:

Is that what happens to Iberians, Romans, Visigoths, Greeks, and Jews? They just gave up their identity and became Arabs because Islam was just so much better?

Uh…

In terms of hordes and conquests, the hordes respected and adopted Christianity. There was an opposite effect there. Unless the Roman Empire secretly became powerful again and forced mass conversion on the barbarians without anyone looking.

The Visigoths were destroyed by Justinian’s forces before Muhammad was leading any band of tribesmen in Arabia. The Berbers, who were the original inhabitants, still exist, as did the Jews until the 1940’s. After the creation of Israel, the large population of North African Jews moved to Israel for the most part, but even today there remain substantial Jewish communities in Morocco.

The above is why I say that your argument that the Arabs wiped everyone out is wrong. What they did do was get most people to speak Arabic, which is relatively benign as I see it.

Now, as for Europe…how many traditional communities of Saxon pagans are there? What happened to the Cathari in Southern France?

The germanic tribes did not “respect and adopt” Christianity, for the most part. Their kings converted, and so they had to convert…or they were killed. That’s what happened to the Saxons, anyway.