While Europe Slept

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pro_universal:
The Visigoths were destroyed by Justinian’s forces before Muhammad was leading any band of tribesmen in Arabia. The Berbers, who were the original inhabitants, still exist, as did the Jews until the 1940’s. After the creation of Israel, the large population of North African Jews moved to Israel for the most part, but even today there remain substantial Jewish communities in Morocco.

The above is why I say that your argument that the Arabs wiped everyone out is wrong. What they did do was get most people to speak Arabic, which is relatively benign as I see it.

Now, as for Europe…how many traditional communities of Saxon pagans are there? What happened to the Cathari in Southern France?
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Are you sure the Visigoths didnt have a king when Carthage fell. Are you sure that the Visigoth king didn’t send forces to aid the Exarchate of Africa? Are you sure that the last Visigoth king was not killed by the Umayyad Muslims?

The Exarchate of Africa wasn’t a bunch of Berbers. The Exarchate was European. I doubt they just lied down and became a bunch of Arabic muslims. I doubt the city that had one of those major Church Councils decided to stop becoming a bunch of infidels.

Did Jesus say persecute the unbelieving Catharis? Did Jesus say to strive hard against the Saxons. As I said earlier, people in power corrupting religion is a little different than religious teachings.
 
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onesimplemind:
Are you sure the Visigoths didnt have a king when Carthage fell. Are you sure that the Visigoth king didn’t send forces to aid the Exarchate of Africa? Are you sure that the last Visigoth king was not killed by the Umayyad Muslims?
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100 percent. An Exarchate is a Byzantine authority structure, and it was the Byzantine Exarchate of Carthage that fell in 698.
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onesimplemind:
The Exarchate of Africa wasn’t a bunch of Berbers. The Exarchate was European. I doubt they just lied down and became a bunch of Arabic muslims. I doubt the city that had one of those major Church Councils decided to stop becoming a bunch of infidels.
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They lost the war, so the authority structure (Church and State were united in the East in a way that wasn’t so in the West) fell. There continued to be Christians and Jews there for Centuries, and this has only changed relatively recently…ie, the 20th century.
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onesimplemind:
Did Jesus say persecute the unbelieving Catharis? Did Jesus say to strive hard against the Saxons. As I said earlier, people in power corrupting religion is a little different than religious teachings.
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The Pope and the Governments of the time sure thought Jesus’s teachings sanctioned the killing of the Catharis. At the most, you can claim that they were wrong about Jesus…but certainly being Christian does not stop peoples from using the religion to justify violence when they wish.

People in power corrupting a religion is what Al Qaeda terrorism is also. Now you understand…just because some terrorist thinks Islam justifies terrorism, doesn’t mean Islam actually does.
 
How do you know they did not become Muslims or is there something wrong with becoming a Muslim in your opinion.
 
pro_universal said:
100 percent. An Exarchate is a Byzantine authority structure, and it was the Byzantine Exarchate of Carthage that fell in 698.

They lost the war, so the authority structure (Church and State were united in the East in a way that wasn’t so in the West) fell. There continued to be Christians and Jews there for Centuries, and this has only changed relatively recently…ie, the 20th century.

The Pope and the Governments of the time sure thought Jesus’s teachings sanctioned the killing of the Catharis. At the most, you can claim that they were wrong about Jesus…but certainly being Christian does not stop peoples from using the religion to justify violence when they wish.

People in power corrupting a religion is what Al Qaeda terrorism is also. Now you understand…just because some terrorist thinks Islam justifies terrorism, doesn’t mean Islam actually does.
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King Rodric of the Visigoths ruled from 709-711, The visigoths were around after Mohommed was leading his tribesman. 100%

You claim that Christian and Jews were just peacebly living their for centuries. Are you sure they weren’t dhimmitized to the 1% of the population of Tunisia today? Are you suggesting that the Christians just left before the 20th century?

I smell some politically correct revisioning of history.

Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”

You might want to compare al queda to the crusaders, fine. You might want to compare any Pope in the middle ages to bin laden, thats stretching it. But comparing what Jesus teaches to what Islam teaches is laughable.
 
King Rodric of the Visigoths ruled from 709-711, The visigoths were around after Mohommed was leading his tribesman. 100%
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Yeah, except that was in the 711 conquest of Spain, not Carthage, which fell in 698.
Are you sure they weren’t dhimmitized to the 1% of the population of Tunisia today? Are you suggesting that the Christians just left before the 20th century?
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No, I’m suggesting that they continued living there until modern times have made economic, political, and social life harder on minorities across the middle east and north africa. They did just fine for most of the time before that.
But comparing what Jesus teaches to what Islam teaches is laughable.
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Well, that is your own biased view. My point is that it should make sense to you that there might be individual muslims who don’t follow what the religion teaches exactly, just as there are christians who do the same.
 
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pro_universal:
Yeah, except that was in the 711 conquest of Spain, not Carthage, which fell in 698.

No, I’m suggesting that they continued living there until modern times have made economic, political, and social life harder on minorities across the middle east and north africa. They did just fine for most of the time before that.

Well, that is your own biased view. My point is that it should make sense to you that there might be individual muslims who don’t follow what the religion teaches exactly, just as there are christians who do the same.
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So the visigoths were not destroyed before the Islamic invasions like you stated earlier.

Were did those Christians in Tunisia move to?

Want to know my biased view? Its called faith. I would be a hypocrite and a fool to equivocate Islam to Christianity.

Want to know my unbiased view, Islam teaches war. This has nothing to do with screwed up Christians slaughtering innocents.

Is it warped Islam for muslims to strive for the forced conversion of the world? Is it warped Islam for muslims en masse to call America the great Satan and threaten terrorism? Is it warped Islam for muslims around the world to fund obvious terror groups like Hamas? Is it warped Islam for muslims to be part of 90% of the conflicts around the world? Is it warped Islam for muslims to be complaining about the crusades and then lusting to wipe out Isreal? Tell me where I am going wrong.
 
So the visigoths were not destroyed before the Islamic invasions like you stated earlier.
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You were talking about Carthage, not Spain. That’s what I was responding to.
Were did those Christians in Tunisia move to?
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They stayed.
Want to know my unbiased view, Islam teaches war. This has nothing to do with screwed up Christians slaughtering innocents.
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Source after source has been posted to prove that Islam does not teach this. It is clearly your own biased view.
Is it warped Islam for muslims to strive for the forced conversion of the world? Is it warped Islam for muslims en masse to call America the great Satan and threaten terrorism? Is it warped Islam for muslims around the world to fund obvious terror groups like Hamas?
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What’s warped is the belief that muslims want to forcibly convert the whole world. There is absolutely zero justification for this view based on muslim holy scriptures, muslim tradition, and muslim writings about the scriptures and traditions of muslims.

It’s funny you mention Hamas, because if you read their charter, you will find that even the most radical of the radicals like Hamas believe that Christians and Jews are guaranteed religious freedom by Islam. Their fault is that they want the government itself to be Islamic, not that they want to force everyone to be muslim.
Tell me where I am going wrong.
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You are making statements about a religion without checking to see what the religion itself teaches.
 
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onesimplemind:
So the visigoths were not destroyed before the Islamic invasions like you stated earlier.

Were did those Christians in Tunisia move to?

Want to know my biased view? Its called faith. I would be a hypocrite and a fool to equivocate Islam to Christianity.

Want to know my unbiased view, Islam teaches war. This has nothing to do with screwed up Christians slaughtering innocents.

Is it warped Islam for muslims to strive for the forced conversion of the world? Is it warped Islam for muslims en masse to call America the great Satan and threaten terrorism? Is it warped Islam for muslims around the world to fund obvious terror groups like Hamas? Is it warped Islam for muslims to be part of 90% of the conflicts around the world? Is it warped Islam for muslims to be complaining about the crusades and then lusting to wipe out Isreal? Tell me where I am going wrong.
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give me a VALID UNBIASED source that says Muslims are out to convert others forcefully and back it up with the QURAN.
Show me where >1.6B Muslims call America the great satan and threaten terrorism. If 1.6B Muslims funded Hamas, they would not have need for more $. 90% of the conflicts? Name me all the major conflicts in the world and how it is caused by Muslims. What does wiping out Israel mean? Does it mean nuking the hell out of Israel or does it mean getting ride of Israel’s bigoted government?
 
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pro_universal:
You were talking about Carthage, not Spain. That’s what I was responding to.

They stayed.

Source after source has been posted to prove that Islam does not teach this. It is clearly your own biased view.

What’s warped is the belief that muslims want to forcibly convert the whole world. There is absolutely zero justification for this view based on muslim holy scriptures, muslim tradition, and muslim writings about the scriptures and traditions of muslims.

It’s funny you mention Hamas, because if you read their charter, you will find that even the most radical of the radicals like Hamas believe that Christians and Jews are guaranteed religious freedom by Islam. Their fault is that they want the government itself to be Islamic, not that they want to force everyone to be muslim.

You are making statements about a religion without checking to see what the religion itself teaches.
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i was reading an interview by Al Jazeera with the Hamas leader and they asked what about the Christians, etc. and he said that they are Palestinians as well and that Christians are our brothers and we should defend them. He also talked about religious freedom and said people had the right to choose and that women were not to be forced to wear the hijab or the burka (btw burka is not Islamic). He also said that this is not a war against Jews but rather the zionists who terrorizes Palestinians everyday. In my opinion, Hamas really arent that bad. If they renounce suicide bombings and attacks on civilians, they have my support 110%. I think they care more about the people of Palestine than anybody else out there.
 
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pro_universal:
What’s warped is the belief that muslims want to forcibly convert the whole world. There is absolutely zero justification for this view based on muslim holy scriptures, muslim tradition, and muslim writings about the scriptures and traditions of muslims.
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Zero?

Ishaq:471 “We are steadfast trusting Him. We have a Prophet by whom we will conquer all men.”

Granted conquering isn’t the same as converting…

I can come up with more peaceful verses if you want.

You ,my friend, really need to learn the concept of “taqqiya”.
Ishaq:442 “By Muhammad’s order we beguiled them.”
 
Two pieces of sentences out of a huge body of work do no prove a point about the religion of a billion people.

“Taqqiya” is something that Robert Spencer spends lots of time worrying about. He’s certainly much more interested in it than muslims.

Instead of relying on half-sentences from other people’s works about Islam, why don’t you just read muslim sources? I posted a good one for you on war…there are lots of others on the site. It will do you some good to see what they have to say for themselves.
 
“Hamas isn’t that bad”!!! Uh they are TERRORISTS. The Christians are terrified over there. And pro save your apologetics. I talked to them personally. Thanks for confirming that Muslims are sympathetic to terrorists. You said it yourself muslim. All I did was quote you. Tell us what you think of Osama next, please.
 
The Christians are terrified over there. And pro save your apologetics. I talked to them personally. Thanks for confirming that Muslims are sympathetic to terrorists. You said it yourself muslim. All I did was quote you.
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I do believe he specifically said that for him to support them, they would be required to renounce suicide bombing and attacks on civilians.

Would they still be terrorists then?
 
First I don’t expect them to do it. Second if they did they would tacitly and quietly support another group to carry on with the terrorism. Arafat perfected this tactic. If they agreed to give up terrorism, signed a peace deal recognizing Israel and her right to exist, accepted a set border and gave up all desire to conquer Israel, stopped all attacks against Israel and cooperated in arresting terrorists, and stopped all persecution of Christians then maybe MAYBE I would think the leopard had changed its spots.
 
If they agreed to give up terrorism, signed a peace deal recognizing Israel and her right to exist, accepted a set border and gave up all desire to conquer Israel, stopped all attacks against Israel and cooperated in arresting terrorists, and stopped all persecution of Christians then maybe MAYBE I would think the leopard had changed its spots.
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Why won’t Israel recognize the rights of Palestinians to exist?

If Israel stops building settlements, stops bulldozing Palestinian homes, stops using bombs that kill hundreds of civilians, and stops demanding that Israel be a “Jewish state”, then I’ll consider all Palestinian resistance unjust.
 
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pro_universal:
Two pieces of sentences out of a huge body of work do no prove a point about the religion of a billion people.

“Taqqiya” is something that Robert Spencer spends lots of time worrying about. He’s certainly much more interested in it than muslims.

Instead of relying on half-sentences from other people’s works about Islam, why don’t you just read muslim sources? I posted a good one for you on war…there are lots of others on the site. It will do you some good to see what they have to say for themselves.
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What do you want me to do, post entire books? I could post everything and provide a context with history or the present to easily prove that Islam teaches war, violence, and suppression. What would that get me, a super long post that will only be interpreted as “not proving a point”?

You have already fallen for the deception that Islam teaches.

Bukhari:V7B67N427 “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’”

Provide me a link to those posts you are talkng about, they should prove interesting.
 
Basically if all the Jews are pushed into the sea and die then you will be satisfied. As soon as Israel pulled out of Gaza the terrorists moved in and started rocket attacks on Israel proper. And you wonder why they are reluctant to trust Hamas?
 
Just quote the quran where it says to kill us kaffir. Muhammed didn’t mind killing those who got in his way. Islam spread by the sword.
 
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pro_universal:
Why won’t Israel recognize the rights of Palestinians to exist?

If Israel stops building settlements, stops bulldozing Palestinian homes, stops using bombs that kill hundreds of civilians, and stops demanding that Israel be a “Jewish state”, then I’ll consider all Palestinian resistance unjust.
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Israel does recognize the right of Palestinians to exist. It’s the reverse that’s true. If the Palestinians stopped targeting Israeli civilians, who have nothing to do with the bulldozing, Israeli military attacks, then perhaps the Israelis would stop bulldozing homes.
 
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