While Europe Slept

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cestusdei:
Basically if all the Jews are pushed into the sea and die then you will be satisfied. As soon as Israel pulled out of Gaza the terrorists moved in and started rocket attacks on Israel proper. And you wonder why they are reluctant to trust Hamas?
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Why should Hamas trust Israel? They annexed Jerusalem illegaly immediately after the six-day war (a war that Israel started via surprise attack on Egypt.) The construction of settlements in Palestinian land has never, not once, been stopped since then.

The Palestinians are as radical as they are because Israel has not shown one iota of a step towards recognizing their right to exist. If Israel were to do that, then dialogue will become possible. Until it does that, the Palestinians would be just plain stupid to make concessions.
 
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pro_universal:
Why won’t Israel recognize the rights of Palestinians to exist?

If Israel stops building settlements, stops bulldozing Palestinian homes, stops using bombs that kill hundreds of civilians, and stops demanding that Israel be a “Jewish state”, then I’ll consider all Palestinian resistance unjust.
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Why won’t the Palestinians/Islamists/Islamic governments/ Muslims in general recognize the rights of Isreal to exist?

If the muslim culture stops preaching hate, stops sending suicide squads, stops engaging in armed conflict, stops teaching people to blow themselves up in order to kill hundreds of civilians and stops their quest for Isreal to be driven into the sea, maybe I will consider the Palestinian resistance just.
 
Israel does recognize the right of Palestinians to exist. It’s the reverse that’s true. If the Palestinians stopped targeting Israeli civilians, who have nothing to do with the bulldozing, Israeli military attacks, then perhaps the Israelis would stop bulldozing homes.
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Israel doesn’t just bulldoze suicide bomber homes. They also bulldoze people for “building without a permit”, conveniently, in Palestinian lands that are appropriated for Jewish settlements.

Israel has not ever, not once, recognized that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination. Not once.
 
Israel offered them a state of their own in 2000. Arafat said no. Israel was willing to deal with the PLO and recognize a Palestinian state. There has never been one before even when Muslims ruled the roost. Jerusalem was taken in a war started by the Muslims. They lost so too bad. The moral is to not start wars with Israel.
 
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pro_universal:
Israel doesn’t just bulldoze suicide bomber homes. They also bulldoze people for “building without a permit”, conveniently, in Palestinian lands that are appropriated for Jewish settlements.

Israel has not ever, not once, recognized that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination. Not once.
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Please prove that.

On the other hand, Israel has done its best to try and keep its citizens out of the West Bank by dismantling the settlements.
 
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pro_universal:
Israel doesn’t just bulldoze suicide bomber homes. They also bulldoze people for “building without a permit”, conveniently, in Palestinian lands that are appropriated for Jewish settlements.

Israel has not ever, not once, recognized that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination. Not once.
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Palestinians don’t just terrorize Zionists.

And we all know the recognition Isreal gets among many muslim groups.

Now on to your links…
 
Israel offered them a state of their own in 2000. Arafat said no. Israel was willing to deal with the PLO and recognize a Palestinian state.
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No it didn’t. Israel offered to negotiate on the possibility of supporting a Palestinian state in the future, and ended up agreeing to no such thing.

Meanwhile, it kept building settlements and has not once ever offered to discuss East Jerusalem, even though it too is land that was illegaly seized in 1967.
Jerusalem was taken in a war started by the Muslims. They lost so too bad.
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Since you keep repeating this, I’m going to have to ask you to provide one credible source that says muslims started the 1967 war.

I’ll start with a source for my position:mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1982-1984/55%20Address%20by%20Prime%20Minister%20Begin%20at%20the%20National

Here, Menachem Begin says:
In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.
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Do you have a source of similar authority to support your claims?
 
On the other hand, Israel has done its best to try and keep its citizens out of the West Bank by dismantling the settlements.
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Huh!?
npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4985906
Morning Edition, November 2, 2005 · While Israel withdrew thousands of Jewish settlers from Gaza last September, settlements in the West Bank continue to expand. According to Israeli statistics, the Jewish population of the West Bank has expanded by 12,000 so far this year; Palestinians fear that growth will make a viable Palestinian state all but impossible
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The fact is a good deal was offered and refused. If on Dec. 6th, 1941 we had noticed the Japanese fleet would it have been logical to assume they were ready to attack? Read the wikipedia article on the 6 day war. There were incursions into Israeli territory and a large military build up on the border. In 1973 they started the Yom Kippur war. About every decade they start another to try and destroy Israel. How many times do they have to try before you finally get the picture?
 
About every decade they start another to try and destroy Israel. How many times do they have to try before you finally get the picture?
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Hey, look what’s not in your post:

A source proving that muslims started the 1967 war, in which Jerusalem was illegaly seized and annexed.

Menachem Begin himself says Israel started the war for policy reasons, and that the state wasn’t threatened. I think I’m going to rely on his vision of 67 for now, unless you provide something more authoritative.
 
They took it as a prize of war. If you lose a war you can lose territory. The Muslims lost Jerusalem. Heck they took it from the Christians. Why should they complain.
 
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cestusdei:
They took it as a prize of war. If you lose a war you can lose territory. The Muslims lost Jerusalem. Heck they took it from the Christians. Why should they complain.
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Israel signed the Geneva Conventions before 1967. Those laws specifically prohibit the taking of land by war.

So no, if you lose a war, you cannot lose territory, at least under international law and the law of Israel.

Are you now conceding that Israel started the war in 1967?
 
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pro_universal:
Meanwhile, it kept building settlements and has not once ever offered to discuss East Jerusalem, even though it too is land that was illegaly seized in 1967.

Since you keep repeating this, I’m going to have to ask you to provide one credible source that says muslims started the 1967 war.
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The Soviet Union leaked false information to Egypt that Isreal was planning to attack. Egypt massed troops along the border. Isreal had no chance if Egypt took the initiative and invaded. Isreal attacked first, won the war, took the spoils of victory.

Isreal HAD to attack, those were the circumstances given. The blame for this war goes to the Soviets. The spoils of war goes to the Isrealis. Muslims better to learn to accept the bad side of war because they reaped the good side for so long.

And so far those articles you have given me do not stand up to the context of history and tell me that not only is Islam violent, but it is chaotic. I still have one more article to go, maybe this will change my mind.
 
Isreal HAD to attack, those were the circumstances given. The blame for this war goes to the Soviets. The spoils of war goes to the Isrealis. Muslims better to learn to accept the bad side of war because they reaped the good side for so long.
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If Israel “HAD” to attack, how come Menachem Begin says there was no proof they had to attack?
 
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pro_universal:
Israel signed the Geneva Conventions before 1967. Those laws specifically prohibit the taking of land by war.

So no, if you lose a war, you cannot lose territory, at least under international law and the law of Israel.
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Tiqqaya works both ways.
 
In WWII Germany lost territory. Oh well. Japan lost some Islands. Oh well. Osama hasn’t signed the Geneva Convention. None of the terrorists have.
 
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pro_universal:
If Israel “HAD” to attack, how come Menachem Begin says there was no proof they had to attack?
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"In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.

This was a war of self-defence in the noblest sense of the term. The government of national unity then established decided unanimously: We will take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation."

Why did Egypt concentrate an army along the border? Why did Egypt invade years earlier? Isreal is a cornered animal that has been screwed with in the past and won’t let it happen again.

Blame the Soviets for this one.
 
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cestusdei:
In WWII Germany lost territory. Oh well. Japan lost some Islands. Oh well. Osama hasn’t signed the Geneva Convention. None of the terrorists have.
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They weren’t signatories to the fourth Geneva convention in 1949.

Israel is. Seizure of land by means of war is illegal.
 
Gee, I wish Muslims would accept that. Give us back Egypt, Syria, North Africa…

They can get back about 96% of the West Bank for the price of real peace and leaving the Jews alone.
 
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pro_universal:
unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm
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This one is funny, you get a bunch of muslims condemning terrorist after 9-11 but mosques around the world were preaching that America had it coming.

Ever thought that these muslims were trying their darn hardest to prevent the U.S. from unleashing its force against the muslim world. Out of all the times in history, there is a country that could easily wipe out every Muslim land, don’t you think that it would be wise for some muslims to try and calm the U.S.? Don’t you think with the extreme and deserved anger that the American people were feeling, that its time to do some “Tiqqiya”

Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”
 
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