While in mortal sin

[Mystical_Seeker]

The point of the teaching is not that you should go into despair and stop doing good things.

The point is that mortal sin is so evil that even good works are robbed of their merit. You get all the merit you earned in the state of grace before the mortal sin when you return to the state of grace.

What I want to know is who makes up these rules?

Does God really look at us buying a homeless person a cup of coffee and a roll, and think, "wow I would have said ‘that was a good deed’ but alas I must not because he’s in that Catholic Twilight Zone?

You’re right. The teaching may not be intended to cause despair. But IMO it perpetuates the foolish mindset that there are heavenly formulas much too complicated to manage all in my little soul so I had better go by the formulas of the Greater Minds.

What’s the teaching for, then? To scare us so that if we can’t or don’t want to go to confession we may be so overwhelmed with fear and sorrow so as to give us motive? That’s not how the Good Shepherd works. He leaves the flock, finds the lost sheep WHEREVER it has strayed, and carries it back. The Good Shepherd doesn’t set up loudspeakers from just inside the gate, pointing out into the wilderness telling the lost sheep that A) yes they are lost, and B) they had golly well better follow the procedures and find their way back because not even GOD can help you where you are now … you miserable wretch. If you were dead, I’d pray for your purgatory time but now you’re creating your own hell.

And if it isn’t about despair and saying, “what is the use” then it’s about being on a behavioral point system to begin with.

I can just see Jesus saying, “don’t worry if you’ve sinned and it grieves you. Soon you will get a chance to make it to confession and until then nothing you can do counts for anything on your behalf so if I were you I’d step up the game and get home pronto!”

Oh wait. Jesus did say something about people that aren’t authorized, doing good work.

From Mark 9:38-41
38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.” 39 Jesus replied, “Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. 40 For whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward."

But if I’m Catholic, and have sinned and not made it to confession, then I don’t get a reward. Maybe instead of despair I’ll throw a tantrum because God lied to me?

This would be all so much simpler if God would just give us the URL where we could see an up-to-date status on how we are doing and what we should do next. Oh but He has given us that – the Holy Spirit. For those who don’t deny the Holy Spirit, or let their own thoughts and biases out-shout His inexpressible groanings, we have just such a Helper, to guide us to all things.

 

[cena]

What I want to know is who makes up these rules?

Does God really look at us buying a homeless person a cup of coffee and a roll, and think, "wow I would have said ‘that was a good deed’ but alas I must not because he’s in that Catholic Twilight Zone?

You’re right. The teaching may not be intended to cause despair. But IMO it perpetuates the foolish mindset that there are heavenly formulas much too complicated to manage all in my little soul so I had better go by the formulas of the Greater Minds.

What’s the teaching for, then? To scare us so that if we can’t or don’t want to go to confession we may be so overwhelmed with fear and sorrow so as to give us motive? That’s not how the Good Shepherd works. He leaves the flock, finds the lost sheep WHEREVER it has strayed, and carries it back. The Good Shepherd doesn’t set up loudspeakers from just inside the gate, pointing out into the wilderness telling the lost sheep that A) yes they are lost, and B) they had golly well better follow the procedures and find their way back because not even GOD can help you where you are now … you miserable wretch. If you were dead, I’d pray for your purgatory time but now you’re creating your own hell.

And if it isn’t about despair and saying, “what is the use” then it’s about being on a behavioral point system to begin with.

I can just see Jesus saying, “don’t worry if you’ve sinned and it grieves you. Soon you will get a chance to make it to confession and until then nothing you can do counts for anything on your behalf so if I were you I’d step up the game and get home pronto!”

Oh wait. Jesus did say something about people that aren’t authorized, doing good work.

From Mark 9:38-41
38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.” 39 Jesus replied, “Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. 40 For whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward."

But if I’m Catholic, and have sinned and not made it to confession, then I don’t get a reward. Maybe instead of despair I’ll throw a tantrum because God lied to me?

This would be all so much simpler if God would just give us the URL where we could see an up-to-date status on how we are doing and what we should do next. Oh but He has given us that – the Holy Spirit. For those who don’t deny the Holy Spirit, or let their own thoughts and biases out-shout His inexpressible groanings, we have just such a Helper, to guide us to all things.

Jesus wasn’t talking about someone in a state of mortal sin, he was talking about someone who was not one of his followers.
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=370419&language=en

And it’s mortal sin, not just any sin. Venial sins don’t diminish your merit.

And you should be trying to get back to the state of grace regardless of what merit you get for good works.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The real point IMO is that mortal sin is not an act at all, but a mindset determined to have its own way. It is about a Bad Tree thinking it has Good Fruit because of a few tokens they throw to this or that cause.

It isn’t about “oops I did it again” but go inside yourself and really find a restructuring.

That said, remember from the Baltimore Catechism that “A sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.”

Does it say you automatically receive this grace if you “go through the motions” and “play by the rules?” No.

So to me, the act of going to confession may clear the heavenly playing field in the eyes of the odds makers and theologians, but it is going to take some real soul searching to get rid of any mindset that goes along with mortal sin.

And while I’m at it, Teresa of Avila seems to agree that the whole venial/mortal sin, based on whether something is “grave matter” really distracts from the point.

“in the state of fallen nature, one cannot for long remain in the state of grace without striving at the same time to make progress in the spiritual life and to exercise oneself from time to time in the practice of some of the evangelical counsels.”

“It is evident that one who would merely aim at avoiding mortals sin would not be living according to the standard of moral conduct outlined in the Gospel. Our Lord proposes to us as the ideal of holiness the very perfection of Our Heavenly Father: “Be ye therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.” Hence, all having God for their Father must approach this divine perfection - which evidently cannot be accomplished without progress.”

 

[cena]

The real point IMO is that mortal sin is not an act at all, but a mindset determined to have its own way. It is about a Bad Tree thinking it has Good Fruit because of a few tokens they throw to this or that cause.

It isn’t about “oops I did it again” but go inside yourself and really find a restructuring.

That said, remember from the Baltimore Catechism that “A sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.”

Does it say you automatically receive this grace if you “go through the motions” and “play by the rules?” No.

So to me, the act of going to confession may clear the heavenly playing field in the eyes of the odds makers and theologians, but it is going to take some real soul searching to get rid of any mindset that goes along with mortal sin.

And while I’m at it, Teresa of Avila seems to agree that the whole venial/mortal sin, based on whether something is “grave matter” really distracts from the point.

“in the state of fallen nature, one cannot for long remain in the state of grace without striving at the same time to make progress in the spiritual life and to exercise oneself from time to time in the practice of some of the evangelical counsels.”

“It is evident that one who would merely aim at avoiding mortals sin would not be living according to the standard of moral conduct outlined in the Gospel. Our Lord proposes to us as the ideal of holiness the very perfection of Our Heavenly Father: “Be ye therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.” Hence, all having God for their Father must approach this divine perfection - which evidently cannot be accomplished without progress.”

What are you trying to say. I am confused.

I said mortal sin is so bad it takes merit out of good works. Venial sin does not. I did not say venial sins are therefore completely okay. They are bad, but not bad enough to do that. This is not a free pass to commit venial sins.

If one rebel against God seriously why do they expect to still receive merit for good works,

Getting merit for good works should not solely determine if you should stay in the state of mortal sin. I think everyone should avoid sin in general, I did not say venial sin is okay

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

What are you trying to say. I am confused.

I said mortal sin is so bad it takes merit out of good works. Venial sin does not. I did not say venial sins are therefore completely okay. They are bad, but not bad enough to do that. This is not a free pass to commit venial sins.

Yes, I don’t want to paint you as having said that.

I’m actually triggered to be on a greater rant that stems from but goes further than the OP question, one that goes to what I consider the roots of the whole issue. When we even ask ourselves questions like whether a “good deed” is of “benefit” to me, then IMO that shows we are looking in the wrong place. We are looking into our heads and mathematical formulas, in lieu of gaining a deeper understanding of the heart. And for that matter getting into “contemplative” prayer which brings us to silent (as opposed to “with the noise of human verbal utterances”) communion with the prayer of Jesus, and btw the CCC says Catholic should do this and how many Catholics do you know who even have heard of Contemplative prayer? My guess is that contemplative prayer, and infusion of grace and blessings and healing and guidance from the Holy Spirit in general, lack a “top-down” control system in favor of distributed control, and until this age where we can instantly communicate with others all over the globe, it was far easier and much more reasonable for the Powers That Be to go by formulas and processes, having duly substituted the process for the benefit itself. It is like idol worship; we don’t even know God because we don’t think we can – because our leaders have allowed us to go on believing that we are all doomed save for their moderating our relationship with God on our behalf. And for these services we have zero “assurance of faith.”

The cognitive dissonance that creates in me when such avenues of discovery are pursued in attempt to find serenity, is only exacerbated by exotic formulations on what does or doesn’t constitute mortal sin and under what conditions it is relieved. This is great for theologians but offers zero guidance for an actual soul in trouble.

If one rebel against God seriously why do they expect to still receive merit for good works,

Yes and this is a good point. Does the person who is actually in a state of mortal sin, and I don’t mean “I’m not sure if my knee touched the ground last week when I genuflected” (my pastor told me of a troubled soul who confessed this) but real honest soul-wrenching stuff, going to really care one way or another about whether some deed pleases God. Likely not.

But the scrupulous person, the one who has no greater understanding than the limited aspects of what they know of church teachings and how they apply it, this stuff is a big deal. And in my opinion, serves basically as a distraction to take what should be serious grieving for the loss of contact with the Divine, and turn it into a process and formula.

My point about St. Teresa and others, is that IMO the whole thing about “mortal” v. “venial” sin is a human construct that is designed to simplify things of theology for the uneducated. But now with Internet and the fact that most of us at least are literate, maybe we can rise above these – shall I use the term “superstitious” formulas that ostensibly represent the teachings of the Church that supposedly are binding upon God.

Getting merit for good works should not solely determine if you should stay in the state of mortal sin. I think everyone should avoid sin in general, I did not say venial sin is okay

Absolutely agree!

 

[cena]

Yes, I don’t want to paint you as having said that.

I’m actually triggered to be on a greater rant that stems from but goes further than the OP question, one that goes to what I consider the roots of the whole issue. When we even ask ourselves questions like whether a “good deed” is of “benefit” to me, then IMO we have completely lost . The cognitive dissonance that creates in me is only exacerbated by exotic formulations on what does or doesn’t constitute mortal sin and under what conditions it is relieved. This is great for theologians but offers zero guidance for an actual soul in trouble.

Yes and this is a good point. Does the person who is actually in a state of mortal sin, and I don’t mean “I’m not sure if my knee touched the ground last week when I genuflected” (my pastor told me of a troubled soul who confessed this) but real honest soul-wrenching stuff, going to really care one way or another about whether some deed pleases God. Likely not.

But the scrupulous person, the one who has no greater understanding than the limited aspects of what they know of church teachings and how they apply it, this stuff is a big deal. And in my opinion, serves basically as a distraction to take what should be serious grieving for the loss of contact with the Divine, and turn it into a process and formula.

My point about St. Teresa and others, is that IMO the whole thing about “mortal” v. “venial” sin is a human construct that is designed to simplify things of theology for the uneducated. But now with Internet and the fact that most of us at least are literate, maybe we can rise above these – shall I use the term “superstitious” formulas that ostensibly represent the teachings of the Church that supposedly are binding upon God.

Absolutely agree!

Uhh some sins are a lot more serious than other sins. Some can get us damned if we do not repent…

They are not superstitious labels. They are not labels for the uneducated and illiterate. They are binding upon God. St. Teresa was making a point we should strive to stop sinning as much as possible not just to stop sinning mortally. That does not mean mortal sins do not exist.

Being a scruple myself, I think scrupulous people have a lot bigger problems to deal with than this teaching.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Uhh some sins are a lot more serious than other sins. Some can get us damned if we do not repent…

They are not superstitious labels. They are not labels for the uneducated and illiterate. They are binding upon God. St. Teresa was making a point we should strive to stop sinning as much as possible not just to stop sinning mortally. That does not mean mortal sins do not exist.

Being a scruple myself, I think scrupulous people have a lot bigger problems to deal with than this teaching.

I am so sorry that this scourge has caught you. I own a website where certain scrupulous renegades from other sites including CAF can share in their faith and chronicle their triumphs, having found no peace in the intellectual banter and endless debate over good and evil. It is a major victory when one of them actually goes to Holy Communion, first of all, and then doesn’t feel like they did a horrible thing by doing so, afterwards. It’s like seeing a starving homeless person finally take a morsel off the banquet table to which she’s always been invited, and finding some strength. :extrahappy:

Meanwhile, show me where Jesus put sins into categories, other than the “unforgivable sin” which my own very conservative Catholic priest SD said nobody honestly knows what that is. So it’s not “mortal sin” we’re talking about.

Come to think of it, He did. He did suggest that the sins of the tax collector, and the sins of the adulteress, are not serious compared to the sins of pride and arrogance, and the condescending tones of those who were “doing God’s work” by telling them they will go to hell. The scribes and teachers of the law still play their role now, and in Jesus’s name, I’m calling them out and holding them responsible for the damage they’ve done, including to you.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Oh, my!

Did I kill this thread?

Was it something I wrote?

Hmm… I guess this means …

Victory!

Is it too early or too silly to declare?

paper covers rock. scissors attacks paper.

beats → :knight2: pair of scissor-swords attacks paper

 

[christofirst]

Oh, my!

Did I kill this thread?

Was it something I wrote?

Hmm… I guess this means …

Victory!

Is it too early or too silly to declare?

paper covers rock. scissors attacks paper.

beats → :knight2: pair of scissor-swords attacks paper

Mystical Seeker, you say many of the things I only wonder about, but am usually not bold enough to put into words here!

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Mystical Seeker, you say many of the things I only wonder about, but am usually not bold enough to put into words here!

Thanks. I’ve loving it. A decade ago, a year ago, a week ago, and I wouldn’t have dreamed I’d be getting away with some of this stuff on this day.

I think it just went a little too far when it came to questioning whether doing good is possible while in some penalty box that little minds wants to keep themselves and other little minds comfortably inside.

People have suffered for generations over this, and I take seriously what Jesus said about the “man who believe in me will do greater works than these.” How? Well for one Jesus didn’t even have a bulldozer to demonstrate what faith could do to a mountain, and here we have the Internet by which the bulk of users in the civilized world can feel the ripple effects of seeds planted, mostly within 7 jumps from one “friend” to another. We can plant one seed, and deliver it in a single click, available to more gardens in five seconds than it took the Church to plant in, over 2000 years without the Internet.

So all the equipment is in place. Can you imagine St. Paul with a CAF login? He isn’t here so it’s up to the likes of us to fill in where he wished somebody could have IMO, and in the context of today.

And all of this after pondering pain from surgery I had last week. Who cares what some Internet person does or doesn’t like about my opinion, and then arranges dots on my screen to offer disapproval. I’ve lived that for 10 years and now I’m ready to level up in the game. Try to conform my ideas to others’ language – learned others’ views that way and how to reach them. But someone opened the cage and my cat-ness got out. Now that my ego fears no other ego concentration whether it be in an individual or group mind, there is no longer a downside into my being honest.

If the dots say “sorry no more dots here from you,” then I shake the dust off my hands and find another place to login where they want to hear what I have to offer.

 

[cena]

I am so sorry that this scourge has caught you. I own a website where certain scrupulous renegades from other sites including CAF can share in their faith and chronicle their triumphs, having found no peace in the intellectual banter and endless debate over good and evil. It is a major victory when one of them actually goes to Holy Communion, first of all, and then doesn’t feel like they did a horrible thing by doing so, afterwards. It’s like seeing a starving homeless person finally take a morsel off the banquet table to which she’s always been invited, and finding some strength. :extrahappy:

Meanwhile, show me where Jesus put sins into categories, other than the “unforgivable sin” which my own very conservative Catholic priest SD said nobody honestly knows what that is. So it’s not “mortal sin” we’re talking about.

Come to think of it, He did. He did suggest that the sins of the tax collector, and the sins of the adulteress, are not serious compared to the sins of pride and arrogance, and the condescending tones of those who were “doing God’s work” by telling them they will go to hell. The scribes and teachers of the law still play their role now, and in Jesus’s name, I’m calling them out and holding them responsible for the damage they’ve done, including to you.

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/mortal-and-venial-sin

St. John who was very close to Jesus in his public life and teaching seemed to think there was a distinction in sin.

Scrupulous people are worrying over things that aren’t sins at all or are venial sins. Most of them would not commit a mortal sin.

 

[cena]

Thanks. I’ve loving it. A decade ago, a year ago, a week ago, and I wouldn’t have dreamed I’d be getting away with some of this stuff on this day.

I think it just went a little too far when it came to questioning whether doing good is possible while in some penalty box that little minds wants to keep themselves and other little minds comfortably inside.

People have suffered for generations over this, and I take seriously what Jesus said about the “man who believe in me will do greater works than these.” How? Well for one Jesus didn’t even have a bulldozer to demonstrate what faith could do to a mountain, and here we have the Internet by which the bulk of users in the civilized world can feel the ripple effects of seeds planted, mostly within 7 jumps from one “friend” to another. We can plant one seed, and deliver it in a single click, available to more gardens in five seconds than it took the Church to plant in, over 2000 years without the Internet.

So all the equipment is in place. Can you imagine St. Paul with a CAF login? He isn’t here so it’s up to the likes of us to fill in where he wished somebody could have IMO, and in the context of today.

And all of this after pondering pain from surgery I had last week. Who cares what some Internet person does or doesn’t like about my opinion, and then arranges dots on my screen to offer disapproval. I’ve lived that for 10 years and now I’m ready to level up in the game. Try to conform my ideas to others’ language – learned others’ views that way and how to reach them. But someone opened the cage and my cat-ness got out. Now that my ego fears no other ego concentration whether it be in an individual or group mind, there is no longer a downside into my being honest.

If the dots say “sorry no more dots here from you,” then I shake the dust off my hands and find another place to login where they want to hear what I have to offer.

You don’t like Church teaching? Fine. You still have to respect it and not disagree with it. If you think the Church is just making stuff about sin and that lying and murder offend God in the same degree, what’s keeping you from disagreeing with every other teaching?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

You don’t like Church teaching? Fine. You still have to respect it and not disagree with it. If you think the Church is just making stuff about sin and that lying and murder offend God in the same degree, what’s keeping you from disagreeing with every other teaching?

I don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. Those things that bring love are good. Those that don’t, I question. When I question and study and get answers and argue and debate and accept kind instruction from my pastor when I get to far out, and still things are wrong. Sorry but it’s time to blow the lid off and I’ll take the chance of being wrong if for nothing else than for the love of my own son who is joining the ranks of the Church. I want it to be a place where we act like Christ would have us act, rather than the way we have come to take the process of doing "church stuff’ as a substitute for a true encounter with Jesus.

By the way, the “true encounter” stuff (in the form of contemplative prayer) is part of prayer life, and part of Catholic teachings, and the CCC says that a Christian’s prayer should progress to it. For the most part I’m not even fighting the Church teachings, but a simplified straw-man that serves for Church teachings and is accepted by the gullible, including myself in a previous life phase. Why don’t we conform our prayer life to what the Church actually teaches? Because the Holy Spirit implies distributed authority, and we don’t know how to factor that into our otherwise top-down paradigm.

So these days, we don’t listen to a child over a theologian with a fancy title. And yet what did Jesus say? Listen to the teachers of the law but do NOT do what they do. They set the example for “proper” behavior, but not “loving” behavior.

The teachings of the Church are complete, but they have not been effectively applied IMO. The Good News is that Pope Francis sees the exact same thing and is calling the exact things into question that I have been wanting to for years. He’s not going to change the Church teachings, but he can slap her in the face and tell her to pay attention to the things that matter, over things that don’t as much.

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/mortal-and-venial-sin

St. John who was very close to Jesus in his public life and teaching seemed to think there was a distinction in sin.

Scrupulous people are worrying over things that aren’t sins at all or are venial sins. Most of them would not commit a mortal sin.

I see Jesus not as our “thought police” but as our “thought coach.” When he said that the desire to kill is the sin and that actually doing it was basically an accident arising out of it, that doesn’t mean to me that we should now be more fearful than ever. Now we can’t even just behave right but we have to think right. No Jesus doesn’t threaten, He invites. If we just try thinking about it that way, we may find that we wish some gang member were killed just as much as the person who pulled the trigger; so how does that make us better than the one who pulled the trigger? Jesus is not offering us another way to feel like losers; He is offering a mechanism to help us with this new concept of “forgiveness” instead of condemning the sinner to death, which had been the status quo for generations.

How can Jesus forgive those whom we couldn’t? Because He humbles himself even below the worst of sinners, and washes their feet. And defends them against church accusations about all manner of things including their ritualistic issues involving washing cups – whitewashed tombs He called them.

Who really thinks that this is the kind of behavior that endears a Man to the Church authorities? Would He not be rhetorically crucified if He were here today? What if He were speaking through an inspired heart or mind on the Internet? Which could it be? All of them? None of them? So many billions of Jesus’s seeds get planted every day, you never know where one will turn up.

 

[cena]

I don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. Those things that bring love are good. Those that don’t, I question. When I question and study and get answers and argue and debate and accept kind instruction from my pastor when I get to far out, and still things are wrong. Sorry but it’s time to blow the lid off and I’ll take the chance of being wrong if for nothing else than for the love of my own son who is joining the ranks of the Church. I want it to be a place where we act like Christ would have us act, rather than the way we have come to take the process of doing "church stuff’ as a substitute for a true encounter with Jesus.

By the way, the “true encounter” stuff (in the form of contemplative prayer) is part of prayer life, and part of Catholic teachings, and the CCC says that a Christian’s prayer should progress to it. For the most part I’m not even fighting the Church teachings, but a simplified straw-man that serves for Church teachings and is accepted by the gullible, including myself in a previous life phase. Why don’t we conform our prayer life to what the Church actually teaches? Because the Holy Spirit implies distributed authority, and we don’t know how to factor that into our otherwise top-down paradigm.

So these days, we don’t listen to a child over a theologian with a fancy title. And yet what did Jesus say? Listen to the teachers of the law but do NOT do what they do. They set the example for “proper” behavior, but not “loving” behavior.

The teachings of the Church are complete, but they have not been effectively applied IMO. The Good News is that Pope Francis sees the exact same thing and is calling the exact things into question that I have been wanting to for years. He’s not going to change the Church teachings, but he can slap her in the face and tell her to pay attention to the things that matter, over things that don’t as much.

I see Jesus not as our “thought police” but as our “thought coach.” When he said that the desire to kill is the sin and that actually doing it was basically an accident arising out of it, that doesn’t mean to me that we should now be more fearful than ever. Now we can’t even just behave right but we have to think right. No Jesus doesn’t threaten, He invites. If we just try thinking about it that way, we may find that we wish some gang member were killed just as much as the person who pulled the trigger; so how does that make us better than the one who pulled the trigger?

So you are saying that the Apostles, their successors, their teachings (who were inspired by God) could be all wrong for 2 thousand years because you feel like it?

Sin is the worst thing you can do to God and you think it doesn’t matter? I really hope I interpreted that wrong.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

So you are saying that the Apostles, their successors, their teachings (who were inspired by God) could be all wrong for 2 thousand years because you feel like it?

Sin is the worst thing you can do to God and you think it doesn’t matter? I really hope I interpreted that wrong.

I hope you did too. I’m exhausted but happy to try to answer your questions.

Now I ask you to give me something tangible to work with and quit riddling me with these vague questions about whether I am in allegiance to the Church. If you have specific teachings you want to debate, have at it. Start a new thread if you want, and if you want me to see it and I don’t PM me. Or take it up PM. Either way as far as I’m concerned I could call you into question. You already showed your own carelessness with the Church teachings by asking how I can call myself Catholic? Don’t you realize that some uninformed person could have read that and believed your lie about whether a person becomes “unCatholic” just by questioning something in the Internet? And their misinformation would be on your soul, if I hadn’t saved you by correcting you.

Here we are. You can be the guy on the ground and me on the horse, and when you get tired of that, we can change positions. You aren’t better than me just because you think you’re “more Catholic” than I am. Jesus pretty much did away with pleasing God based on ego identification with a certain group. And yes I do make pdf’s of some of these threads and run them by my pastor to see if I’ve erred. Do you do that? How do you know that your beliefs about mortal sin aren’t just as faulty as your misbeliefs about what constitutes being a Catholic? I bet I check my statements with priests and seminarians and monks, many times for each time you should have but didn’t. Because you think you know what the Church teaches and yet tell others to violate her teachings because you were – oops, wrong. We can all be wrong. So who is your imprimatur for this thread?



At this time I’m going to try not to participate in “am I Catholic enough” debate because you haven’t even seen the tip of the iceberg of the rage that can induce, after the way I’ve seen people been personally treated by “men of God” in parish and diocese leadership, and all in the name of Jesus and all according to Church teachings in the manner that pleases lawyers the most. Sometimes we like to put a scary mask on Him and then wonder why the flock scatters…

 

[cena]

I hope you did too. I’m exhausted but happy to try to answer your questions.

Now I ask you to give me something tangible to work with and quit riddling me with these vague questions about whether I am in allegiance to the Church. If you have specific teachings you want to debate, have at it. Start a new thread if you want, and if you want me to see it and I don’t PM me. Or take it up PM. Either way as far as I’m concerned I could call you into question. You already showed your own carelessness with the Church teachings by asking how I can call myself Catholic? Don’t you realize that some uninformed person could have read that and believed your lie about whether a person becomes “unCatholic” just by questioning something in the Internet? And their misinformation would be on your soul, if I hadn’t saved you by correcting you.

Here we are. You can be the guy on the ground and me on the horse, and when you get tired of that, we can change positions. You aren’t better than me just because you think you’re “more Catholic” than I am. Jesus pretty much did away with pleasing God based on ego identification with a certain group. And yes I do make pdf’s of some of these threads and run them by my pastor to see if I’ve erred. Do you do that?

At this time I’m going to try not to participate in “am I Catholic enough” debate because you haven’t even seen the tip of the iceberg of the rage that can induce, after the way I’ve seen people been personally treated by “men of God” in parish and diocese leadership, and all in the name of Jesus and all according to Church teachings in the manner that pleases lawyers the most. Sometimes we like to put a scary mask on Him and then wonder why the flock scatters…

1 Corinthians 6
9 - Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
10 - Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

If you don’t possess the kingdom of God it implies you go to hell. Hence mortal sins.

What particular teachings do you have problems with? You seem to think its okay to disregard them if “your heart says so”

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

1 Corinthians 6
9 - Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
10 - Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

If you don’t possess the kingdom of God it implies you go to hell. Hence mortal sins.

What particular teachings do you have problems with? You seem to think its okay to disregard them if “your heart says so”

I thought I was very clear about it. You and others were the ones who made it vague by shifting from a point you were unable to combat, to vague fishing expedition about what I don’t agree with the Church about, so you can remind me that I’m a heretic? Move over, Joan, the fire looks warm.

My problem all throughout this thread is the idea that somehow good works “don’t matter” in the Twilight Zone Time between a mortal sin and the next confession.

Frankly mortal sins are probably 100 times as rare as confessions for them. Still though what in God’s Green Earth is the good of a statement that tells me Good Behavior is temporarily not welcome or even interesting in the world of a God who has authorized His Church to set me in a corner with a dunce hat on? Sounds more like a video game than a way to treat living and breathing human sheep.

Frankly I’m not even sure anybody on this thread has produced actual verification that the Church even teaches this. The part about “no merit” for good works if you’re in a certain state. So basically I’m quoting scripture and speaking from my heart, against a phantasm that may or may not reflect Actual Church Teachings in any meaningful way.

Why don’t you do that work? Find out where the Church actually does teach that our good works are of no merit? Then I’ll tell you from the actual source documents you produce if I still disagree or if we find you all have been trolling me.

 

[cena]

I hope you did too. I’m exhausted but happy to try to answer your questions.

Now I ask you to give me something tangible to work with and quit riddling me with these vague questions about whether I am in allegiance to the Church. If you have specific teachings you want to debate, have at it. Start a new thread if you want, and if you want me to see it and I don’t PM me. Or take it up PM. Either way as far as I’m concerned I could call you into question. You already showed your own carelessness with the Church teachings by asking how I can call myself Catholic? Don’t you realize that some uninformed person could have read that and believed your lie about whether a person becomes “unCatholic” just by questioning something in the Internet? And their misinformation would be on your soul, if I hadn’t saved you by correcting you.

Here we are. You can be the guy on the ground and me on the horse, and when you get tired of that, we can change positions. You aren’t better than me just because you think you’re “more Catholic” than I am. Jesus pretty much did away with pleasing God based on ego identification with a certain group. And yes I do make pdf’s of some of these threads and run them by my pastor to see if I’ve erred. Do you do that? How do you know that your beliefs about mortal sin aren’t just as faulty as your misbeliefs about what constitutes being a Catholic? I bet I check my statements with priests and seminarians and monks, many times for each time you should have but didn’t. Because you think you know what the Church teaches and yet tell others to violate her teachings because you were – oops, wrong. We can all be wrong. So who is your imprimatur for this thread?

At this time I’m going to try not to participate in “am I Catholic enough” debate because you haven’t even seen the tip of the iceberg of the rage that can induce, after the way I’ve seen people been personally treated by “men of God” in parish and diocese leadership, and all in the name of Jesus and all according to Church teachings in the mannI er that pleases lawyers the most. Sometimes we like to put a scary mask on Him and then wonder why the flock scatters…

I think you are exaggerating about the whole unCatholic thing. I am not responsible for someone’s misinterpretation unless I did it deliberately or carelessly enough. It sounds like you are being scrupulous about thatYou very clearly stated that Church teaching was training and it gets in the way of the good which is not what someone who is supposed to be Catholic is supposed to say. The Church determines right and wrong not individual people.
What Church teachings were even talking about (the ones that get in the way of good)

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I think you are exaggerating about the whole unCatholic thing. I am not responsible for someone’s misinterpretation unless I did it deliberately or carelessly enough. It sounds like you are being scrupulous about thatYou very clearly stated that Church teaching was training and it gets in the way of the good which is not what someone who is supposed to be Catholic is supposed to say. The Church determines right and wrong not individual people.
What Church teachings were even talking about (the ones that get in the way of good)

I can’t say you personally did. When I get on these active threads, I just type and type and respond so it is possible I’ve attributed what others have said, to you.

But I’m the one backed into a corner and so far only a couple souls have had the guts to show me any support here. Help! The Catholics are telling me I’m going to hell!

Actually I kind of thought you were seeing what I was saying until you turned around and got all “are you really Catholic” on me. Like a bubble popped and the status quo jumped in.

 

[cena]

I thought I was very clear about it. You and others were the ones who made it vague by shifting from a point you were unable to combat, to vague fishing expedition about what I don’t agree with the Church about, so you can remind me that I’m a heretic? Move over, Joan, the fire looks warm.

My problem all throughout this thread is the idea that somehow good works “don’t matter” in the Twilight Zone Time between a mortal sin and the next confession.

Frankly mortal sins are probably 100 times as rare as confessions for them. Still though what in God’s Green Earth is the good of a statement that tells me Good Behavior is temporarily not welcome or even interesting in the world of a God who has authorized His Church to set me in a corner with a dunce hat on? Sounds more like a video game than a way to treat living and breathing human sheep.

Mortal sins are more common than you think. Giving consent to an impure thought that causes arousal could be a mortal sin.

You can not get merit from good works during mortal sin. You don’t seem to think you are in mortal sin so stop worrying about it.