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thistle
Guest
The colour does not matter.
Canon law:
Can 924 §3 The wine must be natural, made from grapes of the vine, and not corrupt.
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Canon law:
Can 924 §3 The wine must be natural, made from grapes of the vine, and not corrupt.
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glendab
Guest
Hello everyone. Here is what can be found on the subject in the Instruction: Redemptionis Sacramentum
“[50.] The wine that is used in the most sacred celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice must be natural, from the fruit of the grape, pure and incorrupt, not mixed with other substances.[127] During the celebration itself, a small quantity of water is to be mixed with it. Great care should be taken so that the wine intended for the celebration of the Eucharist is well conserved and has not soured.[128] It is altogether forbidden to use wine of doubtful authenticity or provenance, for the Church requires certainty regarding the conditions necessary for the validity of the sacraments. Nor are other drinks of any kind to be admitted for any reason, as they do not constitute valid matter.”
I think our English friend’s remark about alcohol being added is negated by the first sentence which states that the wine not be mixed with any substances and that would to me, include additional wines. As for the** provenance and authenticity**, there is a great deal of care taken in the supply of wines for the Mass and there are vintners whose whole reputations were built providing the wines for Mass. Might be interesting to research it and do a show on their hundreds of years of experience here at Catholic Answers.
Glenda
P.S. I’m no expert but I think I heard somewhere that this Sunday’s celebration during Advent IS an occasion when white wine is preferred. It has something to do with Mary and I cannot recall why.
“[50.] The wine that is used in the most sacred celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice must be natural, from the fruit of the grape, pure and incorrupt, not mixed with other substances.[127] During the celebration itself, a small quantity of water is to be mixed with it. Great care should be taken so that the wine intended for the celebration of the Eucharist is well conserved and has not soured.[128] It is altogether forbidden to use wine of doubtful authenticity or provenance, for the Church requires certainty regarding the conditions necessary for the validity of the sacraments. Nor are other drinks of any kind to be admitted for any reason, as they do not constitute valid matter.”
I think our English friend’s remark about alcohol being added is negated by the first sentence which states that the wine not be mixed with any substances and that would to me, include additional wines. As for the** provenance and authenticity**, there is a great deal of care taken in the supply of wines for the Mass and there are vintners whose whole reputations were built providing the wines for Mass. Might be interesting to research it and do a show on their hundreds of years of experience here at Catholic Answers.
Glenda
P.S. I’m no expert but I think I heard somewhere that this Sunday’s celebration during Advent IS an occasion when white wine is preferred. It has something to do with Mary and I cannot recall why.
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jimkhong
Guest
Referring to me? No, I am not English.
I found the link to Ius Sacramentum, where no 167 (7) deals with addition of alchohol to wine. From the reading of this document (I believe issued in 1890s), the minimum alchohol content needs to be 12%, and alchohol is to be added to weak wine until that level.
Here is an interesting 1938 explanation of sacramental wines. You can also refer to an earlier thread on sacramental wine on CAF.
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Corki
Guest
Those are pretty old references. There is currently no minimum alcohol requirement for Sacramental wine. Mustem, with almost no alcohol, can even be used in certain circumstances.
Here’s a nice diocesan document that discusses what wines are and are not suitable for Communion.
davenportdiocese.org/lit/liturgylibrary/Policies/litWinesEucharist-updated112711.pdf
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epan
Guest
In the more affluent parishes, it’s “brie and chablis”
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jimkhong
Guest
Yes, but old though they may be (wasn’t that old when I was first told about them
), they are still valid until superseded (either by Rome or locally). Unfortunately, not many priests are aware of them - most take altar wine for granted as a logistics/procurement issue.It is good of Davenport to come up with its own guidance. Often it is necessary to adapt universal rules to local laws and cultures. Would like to see more bishops take such responsibility.
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Filii_Dei
Guest
I have been quite amused about the use of fortified wines in the Eucharist. It must also be noted that fortified wines are permitted insofar as both the fermented and distilled components are made from grapes. Canon law requires that altar wine be wholly made from grapes, and because fortified wines are essentially wines with the addition of a distilled spirit, the distilled spirit must therefore also be made from grape. Most sherries fit this criteria, but with all kinds of unscrupulous characters out there, you can never be certain. It is therefore important to be vigilant as to where we source our wines from. 
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babochka
Guest
My parish (Eastern) has been using a very delicious Port wine lately. I’m not much of a wine drinker, but this stuff is so good that I asked Father about it.
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janeway529
Guest
Apparently, CA wines are produced according to the same standards of altar wine. Who knew? 
I knew of a deacon who liked to mix the Golden Angelica and Rosato wines (from Cribari Vineyards) because he claimed it would be easier to clean.
I knew of a deacon who liked to mix the Golden Angelica and Rosato wines (from Cribari Vineyards) because he claimed it would be easier to clean.
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Cat
Guest
From a medical technologist who works in a clinical laboratory:
In the lab, we spin the blood samples down in a centrifuge, and separate the cells, which are red, from the plasma, which is…white (clear)!
So for me, white wine looks as much like blood as red wine.
In the lab, we spin the blood samples down in a centrifuge, and separate the cells, which are red, from the plasma, which is…white (clear)!
So for me, white wine looks as much like blood as red wine.
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Corki
Guest
They have long ago been superseded by the new Code of Canon law, several iterations of the GIRM and Redeptionis Sacramentum. Universal law cannot be superseded by local authority.Yes, but old though they may be (wasn’t that old when I was first told about them
It is good of Davenport to come up with its own guidance. Often it is necessary to adapt universal rules to local laws and cultures. Would like to see more bishops take such responsibility.
The Davenport document is not an adaptation of universal rules. It is an explanation and application document.
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glendab
Guest
Both documents for this discussion were very helpful. Thank you.
Glenda
Glenda
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Wine is Wine. It happened at a church (Catholic) I went to also. I asked about that
and was informed that any type of wine is sufficient, though red is more traditional.
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glendab
Guest
Hello Corki. Your statement about the “universal law” as somehow superior to, or as you say, superseded by how the laws are used by the Bishops who oversee their application in each diocese is not accurate. It is up to the Bishop to decide which wines are used at Mass and each Priest knows where to obtain those that are approved. The role of the Sacristan is to ensure that the wine is not only provided by reputable and approved vintners, but is also not soured.
If a case came forward and a particular priest was suspect of using improper wines, then yes, the laws would be used to see if they were in fact, unsuitable for use in Mass. But the decision would be made by a Canon and after much investigation and discussion with the priest involved. Laws are only used in the process and I see too much discounting to the point of scorn by those who would stick to the letter of the law as if it is the ONLY arbiter of our Sacred Traditions. There are literally two thousand years of personal discretion involved that you seem to think isn’t as authoritative as the Code of Canon law. This isn’t so.
Woe to you scholars of the law who strain the gnat but swallow the camel.
Glenda
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Corki
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That’s not really the way the Church works. There are some things that are left to the interpretation of the local ordinary. But other things are set out for the entire Church. The term universal refers to the whole Church. Once something has been directed for the whole Church, a Bishop can no longer take it up himself to change it without permission. When it comes to Liturgy, that permission would come from the CDW (Congregation for Divine Worship).
There are portions of the Liturgy that can be changed at the discretion of the Celebrant or the Ordinary. Those are clearly designated. The rest is not up to individual decision.
If the norm for the universal Church is ‘any wine, red or white, from grapes with no additives’, a Bishop could specify that in his diocese only white wine may be used. That’s a subset of what is allowed for the whole Church. But he could not, for example, say that additives were allowed in his diocese if they are prohibited for the universal Church, without getting permission from the CDW.
If a priest would seem to be using improper wines, it would not take “much investigation and discussion”. It would simply need someone to look it up in the proper documents.
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Jennifoo
Guest
I occasionally attend Mass at a nearby Benedictine Monastery, American Cassinese Congregation. They use white wine. A very good and obedient priest stated that it's acceptable as long as it is grape wine, as opposed to wine made out of other things. Sadly, there was a rumor going around that these Benedictines used apple wine since they have an apple orchard. I asked the Sacristan and he assured me they use grape wine. I then reported back to the person who had mentioned that rumor to me with a warning against gossip.
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Brendan_64
Guest
In our church we’ve had white, and red. The wine that is usually used in my parish resembles a type of sherry that looks more ‘brown’ than anything else. In the end, so long as it’s made from grapes, it doesn’t matter at all.
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jimkhong
Guest
That’s not really the way the Church works. I know it is easier for Catholics wishing for a single place for all procedures required by Catholics to keep to the right side of salvation, but Church Law is a little more complicated. Remember the joke about the priest who declared that there were 832 listed sins and got instantly asked by many parishioners for that list - many Catholics are like that and would like to have simple rules that doesn’t require us to think too much.
A single pronouncement, even in Canon Law/GIRM, usually (I hesitate to say never) does not over-ride all previous pronouncements. More especially, if the earlier pronouncement is more specific than the later one. Like most things in the Catholic Church, most of Canon Law is not new and is an affirmation of traditions held by the Church from time immemorial. As such, Canon Law rarely over-turns previously validly-sanctioned documents.
The rule in Canon Law (on sacramental wine only a single-sentence sub-canon of Canon 924) is short and brief and states what has been the practice of the Church from early days. The 1890’s document from the Inquisition Office, 1920’s clarification by the Holy Office and the 1938 document are lengthy clarifications of that ancient practice. These clarifications defined what is and what is not a valid additive under Church Law. I cannot see how a single sentence can over-ride all those validly-sanctioned clarifications as to do so would be to admit error by the precedessors of CDW in issuing those documents.
Church law does require local adaptation (of which the Davenport document is one) especially on this issue due to differing regulating laws. The Davenport document referred to Iowan law and I am sure laws in other states and other countries may differ, requiring the way sacramental wines are to be made, packaged, labelled and marketed - all the while keeping to the right side of Church and secular laws. If I am not mistaken, CA law differs and some sacramental wine may need to be labelled as ‘fortified wine’ there while that is not necessary in other states. Such adaptations are necessary, and the Vatican would be foolish to supplant all previous pronouncements by some 3000 bishoprics, VAs, SPs, etc with a single short sentence.
Church Law is a lot more interesting than finding quotations from a single place. Otherwise we would just be reduced to memorising the 832 listed sins, much like Sola Scriptura people memorise Bible verses.
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Corki
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Phemie
Guest
I’m sure that the vintners who make altar wines have certain rules with which they comply, otherwise there would be no way to ensure that a product is licit or even valid to use. Those rules would not be disseminate widely because they would be of no use to the general public.
As far as contradiction goes, reading the old documents shows no contradiction.
Mustum is allowed for a priest in the old document but it’s illicit for everyone else – even today it’s illicit except in rare cases, a priest can’t just decide to use mustum without permission. As for addition, you can’t add cane sugar but you can mix a sweeter wine with a dryer wine to make a semi sweet. You’re still dealing with a grape product. If you add grape alcohol from one source to grape alcohol from another source you are not changing the “grapeness” of the product added to. Grape alcohol is grape alcohol is grape alcohol.
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