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Atemi
Guest
What is the definition of Traditional Catholicism as intended by the board title?
Who is this title referring to?
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Who is this title referring to?
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
The title of the forum is referring mainly to those who have some sort of attachment to the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite; otherwise known as the Tridentine Latin Mass, usually celebrated with the Missal of Saint Pius V. The Tridentine Rite was codified from the many different local variations of the Latin liturgy in the West in the time, which included many Saxon liturgies on the British Isles, the Mozarabic rite, except for the Greek Catholics on Sicily. It unified the Mass in the West, and codified the prayers and rubrics.
It is to be distinguished from the Mass of Paul VI, which really isn’t the Mass of Paul VI, but was often referred to as the “Novus Ordo Missae” (or New Order of the Mass) but the Mass of Paul VI was actually not his creation at all. The Novus Ordo breaks thousands of years of organic development in the Western liturgy and attempts an ecumenical approach in the modern world. Both rites are equally valid in the Roman Rite and some feel that the TLM (Tridentine Latin Mass) is more reverent because the priest has less options than in the Novus Ordo, which can lead to such extreme abuses in the liturgy such as clown masses and liturgical dancing.
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Atemi
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Thank you.
So are you saying that “Traditional Catholicism” is not referring to the faith of Traditionalists such as the SSPX crowd and the sedevacantists?
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Dauphin
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Traditional Catholics also generally hold to a spirituality and practice which was more common before the Second Vatican Council; no meat on fridays, fast from midnight before Communion, etc.
We also generally hold to a strict view on matters such as Salvation outside the Church (there’s none), ecumenism (no indifferentism), and Biblical interpretation (it’s completely inerrant).
We also tend to like the traditional trappings of the Church; its vast collection of beautiful sacred music, its ornate traditional vestments (papal tiaras, for example), and its more ancient devotions.
Admittedly, though, much of traditional Catholicism is defined by what we don’t like. Just view some of the threads here to get an idea.
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Dauphin
Guest
They’re still included under the “Traditional” umbrella. They hold the Catholic faith, not something different. In doctrine, the SSPX is completely orthodox.
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Semper_Fi_1
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The SSPX, as a society, is orthodox, yes. However, as the SSPX does not have any lay members, the SSPX is in a tricky situation as their priests’ faculties are suspended a divinis, and their bishops suffered automatic excommunication. The right to celebrate the Sacraments of Marriage and Reconciliation are faculties which are granted by the local diocesan bishop, and as such even though their other sacraments may be valid but illicit, these two are most definitely not, leading some lay Catholics who would otherwise be in good standing with the Church to excommunication themselves. It is a grave matter to deal with a priest whose faculties who have been suspended a divinis, and could become a mortal sin.
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Semper_Fi_1
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Sedevacantists do not fall under the umbrella of “traditional Catholicism”, IMO. They are something altogether different – in no way, matter, shape or form in communion with or seeking communion with the Roman Pontiff.
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Semper_Fi_1
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I don’t think the SSPX are Catholics, but that’s my opinion. In order to be Catholic you need to be in full communion with the Roman Pontiff. They’re schismatics.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
Semper Fi, that is not true. You do not get excommunicated by attending SSPX liturgical celebrations. Where do you get the idea from? While SSPX are certainly not in good standing with Rome, it is the bishops who were excommunicated for illegally ordaining their own bishops.
While I disagree with SSPX position and would not go to their chapels (and discourage catholics from doing so), I don’t understand this extremist position people hold against SSPX. This position doesn’t originate from Rome and only seems to reflects more people’s emotions. SSPX is not Catholic? C’mon!
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Semper_Fi_1
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I never said that you get excommunicated by attending SSPX liturgical celebrations. I carefully worded my post. Please re-read.
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GandalfTheWhite
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I did and I somehow still don’t understand what else you’re trying to say by this: “leading some lay Catholics who would otherwise be in good standing with the Church to excommunication themselves”
Sorry
Anyways, as for what traditional catholicism really is - no one knows. It’s one of the terms that is used in different ways by different people. I know that some catholics would call another “rad trad” if he would say that he really dislikes guitars at mass.
Anyways, it’s usually someone who wants to go back in time in a certain sense. Traditional catholics would like to:
- see mass celebrated Ad Orientem
- would like to ban communion in hand
- would like to bring back altar rails
- like Latin and want it to be used widely once again
- are especially attached to the Old from of the Mass
- would like to bring many traditional devotions and practices
- hate modern music in churches and would much rather have Gregorian chant and other traditional music
…and much more…
Then you get some who really take things into the extreme but at this point their orthodoxy and obedience falls into question. These people should however not be discussed.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
I have never stopped being a traditional Catholic and there are many like me. We submitted to the magesterium of HMC back in the late 60s because as traditional Catholics that was what was expected of us. Doesn’t mean we had to like it.
I had to go “parish shopping” back in the early 80s when such things were severely frowned upon. I have driven 25 miles (one way) to attend my reverent NO cathedral parish since 1983 so that I can be faithful to my traditional Catholic roots.
I don’t want to introduce myself to my neighbor after the first sign of the Cross. I don’t want to hold hands during the Our Father nor do I want to lift my hands up (does anyone beside me realize how “protestant” this gesture is?) nor do I want to see Father sailing down the aisles during the Sign of Peace.
Hey folks, let us remember that when the Sign of Peace was first introduced in the NO, it was no more than turning to your neighbor and saying " Peace be with you".
I had to go “parish shopping” back in the early 80s when such things were severely frowned upon. I have driven 25 miles (one way) to attend my reverent NO cathedral parish since 1983 so that I can be faithful to my traditional Catholic roots.
I don’t want to introduce myself to my neighbor after the first sign of the Cross. I don’t want to hold hands during the Our Father nor do I want to lift my hands up (does anyone beside me realize how “protestant” this gesture is?) nor do I want to see Father sailing down the aisles during the Sign of Peace.
Hey folks, let us remember that when the Sign of Peace was first introduced in the NO, it was no more than turning to your neighbor and saying " Peace be with you".
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Cathryn
Guest
I don’t care for the term here of “Traditional Catholicism”. I must be some kind of hybrid. I am no traditionalist but I love the extraordinary form of the Mass. I also love a reverent NO. Everything that was sacred to me in my youth is still sacred to me. I don’t think that makes me a traditionalist, just a Catholic.
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Semper_Fi_1
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It most certainly is true that expressing support for schism can lead to schism oneself. I didn’t say all Catholics who attended get excommunicated.I did and I somehow still don’t understand what else you’re trying to say by this: “leading some lay Catholics who would otherwise be in good standing with the Church to excommunication themselves”
Sorry
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Adonis33
Guest
I think, and I am not a mind reader, what he was trying to say was that somebody who attends SSPX chapels on a regular basis could develope a schizmatic attitude.I did and I somehow still don’t understand what else you’re trying to say by this: “leading some lay Catholics who would otherwise be in good standing with the Church to excommunication themselves”
Sorry
Anyways, as for what traditional catholicism really is - no one knows. It’s one of the terms that is used in different ways by different people. I know that some catholics would call another “rad trad” if he would say that he really dislikes guitars at mass.
Anyways, it’s usually someone who wants to go back in time in a certain sense. Traditional catholics would like to:
This is generically just outline. As I said the opinions wary and some are more extreme than others.
- see mass celebrated Ad Orientem
- would like to ban communion in hand
- would like to bring back altar rails
- like Latin and want it to be used widely once again
- are especially attached to the Old from of the Mass
- would like to bring many traditional devotions and practices
- hate modern music in churches and would much rather have Gregorian chant and other traditional music
…and much more…
Then you get some who really take things into the extreme but at this point their orthodoxy and obedience falls into question. These people should however not be discussed.
I have been going to the SSPX chapel here for over 20 years. I personally am torn between the liturgy I have loved since my conversion and being part of a parish under the archdiocese. Some of the attitude I have heard over the last few years have me thinking of trying to find a conservative NO parish.
My wife and I will be looking around the new year.
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I_Believe
Guest
Hear hear !Admittedly, though, much of traditional Catholicism is defined by what we don’t like. Just view some of the threads here to get an idea.
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vadermanu89
Guest
Isn’t it true that Pope Benedicts XVI disagrees with the term ‘traditional catholicism’? In his writings, he always call trads as ‘the so-called traditionalists’. Haha!
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Volodymyr_988
Guest
-The Divine Liturgy in the Eastern Churches has always been Ad Orientem.
-Since we use the Liturgical Spoon there ain’t no Communion in the Hand.
-We don’t have altar rails, we have an Icon Screen.
-We do use vernacular.
-There is no new form.
-We have kept traditional devotions and practices, some reaching back over 1800 years.
-We have no modern music.
… and much more…
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TMGallyon85
Guest
I can sympathize with you, Brotherhrolf, on the hands in the air stuff. Where did this curent trend of the “orans position” come from? At my parish, when the Our Father begins, people hold their hands in front of them like we are have a faith healing by Benny Hinn. I feel odd because I am one of the few that just keeps my hands folded. This stuff along with the holding hands during the Our Father and Everybody shaking hands around the church really does look Protestant. Seems there is an obsession in the Ordinary form for everybody making movement and not actually thinking or praying personally.
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Atemi
Guest
Interesting. Unfortunate hostility, really.
If Catholics learned this from Protestants, then you should be thanking the Protestants.
Nehemiah 8:6 “Ezra praised the LORD, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, “Amen! Amen!” Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground.”
Psalm 28:2 “Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place.”
Psalm 63:4 “I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands.”
Psalm 119:48 “I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees.”
Psalm 134:2 “Lift up your hands in the sanctuary and praise the LORD.”
Lamentations 3:41 “Let us lift up our hearts and our hands to God in heaven”
1 Timothy 2:8 “I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer”
How ever could such a holy posture make anyone feel uncomfortable…so much so that they would actively refuse?
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