Who appeared at Lourdes and Fatima? Mary?

[guanophore]

I have been participating in a couple of threads on Mary, the Mother of God, one of which is close to maxing out, so I decided to start a new thread on this topic. On this the 150 anniversary of Lourdes, I found myself wondering. Those of you who do not believe that Mary was assumed into heaven by her Divine Son, or do not believe the He allows her this ministry, what do you think is going on in Fatima and Lourdes? I read this post…

Throughout the Roman Catholic Church, Mary is being listened to through visions, apparitions, weeping statues, and various demonic revelations. The Spirit of Mary is credited with the fall of Communism in the USSR, and multitudes of pilgrims travel to places where the Virgin is said to have appeared - over 600 cities worldwide in all.

Do you think there are any valid visions and apparitions? If not, what is occuring? Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I have been participating in a couple of threads on Mary, the Mother of God, one of which is close to maxing out, so I decided to start a new thread on this topic. On this the 150 anniversary of Lourdes, I found myself wondering. Those of you who do not believe that Mary was assumed into heaven by her Divine Son, or do not believe the He allows her this ministry, what do you think is going on in Fatima and Lourdes? I read this post…

Do you think there are any valid visions and apparitions? If not, what is occuring? Thanks for your feedback.

OK ​

IMHO:

• Lourdes 1858 - no probs
• Knock 1879 - very dodgy
• Fatima 1917- troublingly Mary-centred
• Banneux & Beuraing 1932 & 1933 - fake IMO
  The sheer number of alleged apparitions - even excluding both the unapproved & condemned ones - is worrying; in fact,it’s hard to see how so many could possibly be “of God”: so many, is "too much of a good thing.

It is perhaps not generally known that Mgr Cristiani’s book “satan in the Twentieth Century” states that after the apparitions to St. Bernardette in 1858, there was a series of false apparitions at Lourdes as well. I think something similar is happening today: that lying apparitions, false prophecies, & manifestations inspired by satan are among the many alleged Marian (& other) apparitions; I think most probably are either demonic, or purely human, & certainly not from God. My guess is that most of the fake apparitions arise from nothing more than the desire to have a vision of one’s own - a most dangerous desire.

Several have given rise to prophecies of doom which have not come to pass - “Thunder of Justice” quotes or refers to many of these; comparing those predicted to occur by now, is - interesting . God does not inspire lying prophets, but pours out the fury of His anger upon them (see Revelation 14); those who lead others astray are hateful to God, & “lying lips are an abomination to [Him]”. His words about false prophets are not very “affirming”

Several of these visionaries invent their own fantasies of the last days, rather than being led by Scripture & the Church: instead of the Holy Bible, the Word of God, people spin fairytales about “Three Day’s Darkness” & “The Emperor of the Last Times”, & comparable fantasies: worse still, they make money from the credulousness & ignorance of others; there is a Hell gaping wide to receive such deceivers. (The Church really should speak of Hell far more than it does - the lake of fire burning with sulphur and brimstone has not been “disinvented”: there is room for every lying prophet & deceiving visionary in creation).

 

[swariffin]

I have been participating in a couple of threads on Mary, the Mother of God, one of which is close to maxing out, so I decided to start a new thread on this topic. On this the 150 anniversary of Lourdes, I found myself wondering. Those of you who do not believe that Mary was assumed into heaven by her Divine Son, or do not believe the He allows her this ministry, what do you think is going on in Fatima and Lourdes? I read this post…

Do you think there are any valid visions and apparitions? If not, what is occuring? Thanks for your feedback.

Dear Guanaphore,

Both Lourdes and Fatima are considered as private revelations. The advantage is, time has proven that those private revelations are indeed fruitful for the sake of humanity and spirituality. Whether Mary was responsible for the fall of the USSR, I think is debatable. But, Mary’s apparitions in both Lourdes and Fatima, yield growing faith among the Catholics, and this is more important. In this modern time, many people (including in the Asian countries) claim that he/she saw Mary’s apparitions in many forms. Whether they are true or not, time will tell. In this case, we should not expect that the Roman Catholic Church will announce formal acknowledgements soon.

 

[guanophore]

OK ​

IMHO:

• Lourdes 1858 - no probs
• Knock 1879 - very dodgy
• Fatima 1917- troublingly Mary-centred
• Banneux & Beuraing 1932 & 1933 - fake IMO
  The sheer number of alleged apparitions - even excluding both the unapproved & condemned ones - is worrying; in fact,it’s hard to see how so many could possibly be “of God”: so many, is "too much of a good thing.

It is perhaps not generally known that Mgr Cristiani’s book “satan in the Twentieth Century” states that after the apparitions to St. Bernardette in 1858, there was a series of false apparitions at Lourdes as well. I think something similar is happening today: that lying apparitions, false prophecies, & manifestations inspired by satan are among the many alleged Marian (& other) apparitions; I think most probably are either demonic, or purely human, & certainly not from God. My guess is that most of the fake apparitions arise from nothing more than the desire to have a vision of one’s own - a most dangerous desire.

Several have given rise to prophecies of doom which have not come to pass - “Thunder of Justice” quotes or refers to many of these; comparing those predicted to occur by now, is - interesting . God does not inspire lying prophets, but pours out the fury of His anger upon them (see Revelation 14); those who lead others astray are hateful to God, & “lying lips are an abomination to [Him]”. His words about false prophets are not very “affirming”

Several of these visionaries invent their own fantasies of the last days, rather than being led by Scripture & the Church: instead of the Holy Bible, the Word of God, people spin fairytales about “Three Day’s Darkness” & “The Emperor of the Last Times”, & comparable fantasies: worse still, they make money from the credulousness & ignorance of others; there is a Hell gaping wide to receive such deceivers. (The Church really should speak of Hell far more than it does - the lake of fire burning with sulphur and brimstone has not been “disinvented”: there is room for every lying prophet & deceiving visionary in creation).

Ok, but given the restriction of the forum rules that we don’t discuss any unapproved private revelations, do you accept the decision of the church on Fatima and Lourdes, that these are authentic?

 

[guanophore]

Dear Guanaphore,

Both Lourdes and Fatima are considered as private revelations. The advantage is, time has proven that those private revelations are indeed fruitful for the sake of humanity and spirituality. Whether Mary was responsible for the fall of the USSR, I think is debatable. But, Mary’s apparitions in both Lourdes and Fatima, yield growing faith among the Catholics, and this is more important. In this modern time, many people (including in the Asian countries) claim that he/she saw Mary’s apparitions in many forms. Whether they are true or not, time will tell. In this case, we should not expect that the Roman Catholic Church will announce formal acknowledgements soon.

I am I out of order, then, in starting this thread?

"Promoting unapproved apparitions and revelations (those not approved by the Church for private or public devotion) or alleged private locutions"

Are not Lourdes and Fatima approved for private devotion? If there are Masses for them, are they not approved for public devotion?

I have done some study on Mary and the fall of the USSR, and I understand why that is said.

 

[swariffin]

I am I out of order, then, in starting this thread?

"Promoting unapproved apparitions and revelations (those not approved by the Church for private or public devotion) or alleged private locutions"

Are not Lourdes and Fatima approved for private devotion? If there are Masses for them, are they not approved for public devotion?

I have done some study on Mary and the fall of the USSR, and I understand why that is said.

Dear Guanaphore,

I don’t think the central issue is private vs public devotion. The issue is whether the RCC acknowledges the apparitions (in this case private revelation) or not. The RCC acknowledged that there were indeed private revelations to St. Bernadette in Lourdes, and St. Lucia, Yacinta, and Francesco in Fatima. Whether we would like to devote to those revelations or not, is each of our individual matter. No one can judge whether we are going into heaven or not from this revelation.

 

[Hesychios]

Father Benedict Groeschel had an interesting and sobering book which touched on the subject.

I can’t remember tha name right now, but I suggest everyone try to get hold of a copy.

Michael

 

[Pwrlftr]

I have been participating in a couple of threads on Mary, the Mother of God, one of which is close to maxing out, so I decided to start a new thread on this topic. On this the 150 anniversary of Lourdes, I found myself wondering. **Those of you who do not believe that Mary was assumed into heaven **by her Divine Son, or do not believe the He allows her this ministry, what do you think is going on in Fatima and Lourdes? I read this post…

Do you think there are any valid visions and apparitions? If not, what is occuring? Thanks for your feedback.

Mary being “assumed” into heavn isn’t quite the same thing as her simply being in heaven so I am not sure why you chose to include the assumption in your OP.

Can you explain how or why linked the assumption to the apparitions? Couldn’t Mary have appeared to folks on earth w/out her being assumed into heaven as described by your church?

 

[EHRAM]

Father Benedict Groeschel had an interesting and sobering book which touched on the subject.

I can’t remember tha name right now, but I suggest everyone try to get hold of a copy.

Michael

I remember the name:

A Still Small Voice: A Practical Guide on Reported Revelations

 

[Righteousone]

When in Fatima, 80,000 people saw the Miracle of the sun. Even the atheist times reported the Miracle and what they saw. If people here cannot believe these 80,000 people who saw with their own eyes, then what is the point of this thread. There will be people here to deny it then so…so sad.

 

[Hesychios]

When in Fatima, 80,000 people saw the Miracle of the sun. Even the atheist times reported the Miracle and what they saw. If people here cannot believe these 80,000 people who saw with their own eyes, then what is the point of this thread. There will be people here to deny it then so…so sad.

I believe the question on this thread is not whether there was an incident, but what caused it.

Those who don’t believe it happened would believe nothing caused it.

For arguments sake let us suppose that 80,000 people saw this Miracle of the Sun as the accounts tell us. Does that mean they know the source of the vision? I am also interested in what they would know and why they say they know it.

I wonder what percentage of the population of Portugal today believe in it, or accept the standard explanation, considering that many of them would be from the families of people who were present at the event? Have there been any polls on the subject taken in Portugal?

I am quite curious.

Michael

 

[Rocky]

Mary being “assumed” into heavn isn’t quite the same thing as her simply being in heaven so I am not sure why you chose to include the assumption in your OP.

Can you explain how or why linked the assumption to the apparitions? Couldn’t Mary have appeared to folks on earth w/out her being assumed into heaven as described by your church?

Yes, I suppose God could have permitted Mary to appear to people without assuming her into heaven. The Catholic belief in the Assumption of Mary, though, is that she is fully in heaven—body and soul. Others who have died in Christ have to wait until the Return of Christ on the Last Day to be reunited to their bodies and to be fully in heaven. God has given this singular honor to Mary because she had the singular honor of being the Mother of Jesus. It is actually a wonderful confirmation of our belief in the promise that we will rise again on the Last Day, no matter how many millenia have passed!

And those who receive private locutions or appearances should definitely speak with their spiritual counselor — priest— to make sure that what they are seeing/hearing is actually from God. I believe the children at Lourdes and Fatima did just that, and took some grief at the beginning before they were believed.

 

[Righteousone]

I believe the question on this thread is not whether there was an incident, but what caused it.

Those who don’t believe it happened would believe nothing caused it.

For arguments sake let us suppose that 80,000 people saw this Miracle of the Sun as the accounts tell us. Does that mean they know the source of the vision? I am also interested in what they would know and why they say they know it.

I wonder what percentage of the population of Portugal today believe in it, or accept the standard explanation, considering that many of them would be from the families of people who were present at the event? Have there been any polls on the subject taken in Portugal?

I am quite curious.

Michael

95% of Portugal is Catholic. On the anniversary of Fatima, there are millions and millions of people who come to venerate her.
For four minutes, the noontime sun spun around giving off various colors, one after the other.
If a person that day at Fatima had on a white shirt–it would turn red, green and blue as the sun spun around. It stopped and started again for four more minutes, this time even brighter colors. Then it stopped again.
Then it started again. This time it detached itself from its regular position and began to zigzag in the sky. It “danced” for about four minutes, then started to plummet to the earth. It looked like it was the end of the world. Many people fell on their knees to ask for mercy of God. The sun then returned to its original position in the sky.
If this wasn’t enough already, the 80,000 people whose clothing had been drenched from the torrential rainstorm and covered with dirt from standing in ankle-deep mud, were instantly dry and clean. Scientists say it would have taken the magnitude of the atomic bomb to dry the people and land in that instant.

 

[Righteousone]

Furthermore, this miracle was witnessed by these people and non-believers alike
God performed the great miracle of the sun to certify to the world the veracity of the message the Blessed Mother had given to the children of Portugal. She entrusted to these souls the means of saving very many souls and bringing peace to the entire world.

 

[Hesychios]

95% of Portugal is Catholic. On the anniversary of Fatima, there are millions and millions of people who come to venerate her.
For four minutes, the noontime sun spun around giving off various colors, one after the other.
If a person that day at Fatima had on a white shirt–it would turn red, green and blue as the sun spun around. It stopped and started again for four more minutes, this time even brighter colors. Then it stopped again.
Then it started again. This time it detached itself from its regular position and began to zigzag in the sky. It “danced” for about four minutes, then started to plummet to the earth. It looked like it was the end of the world. Many people fell on their knees to ask for mercy of God. The sun then returned to its original position in the sky.
If this wasn’t enough already, the 80,000 people whose clothing had been drenched from the torrential rainstorm and covered with dirt from standing in ankle-deep mud, were instantly dry and clean. Scientists say it would have taken the magnitude of the atomic bomb to dry the people and land in that instant.

Yes. I am quite aware of all that. A very powerful witness indeed.

But Portugal overall does not exhibit today what I would call deep Faith. Something has gone awry.

That’s why I have to wonder. Eighty thousand people is a huge number, that could possibly translate into half a million descendants by now (possibly more, given how people had children in multiples in years gone by). I would think that ninety years later people would still be affected by it, but recent news from Portugal has been very disappointing.

I wonder how the average Portuguese today feels about the apparition.

*Michael *

 

[Righteousone]

Yes. I am quite aware of all that. A very powerful witness indeed.

But Portugal overall does not exhibit today what I would call deep Faith. Something has gone awry.

That’s why I have to wonder. Eighty thousand people is a huge number, that could possibly translate into half a million descendants by now (possibly more, given how people had children in multiples in years gone by). I would think that ninety years later people would still be affected by it, but recent news from Portugal has been very disappointing.

I wonder how the average Portuguese today feels about the apparition.

*Michael *

What are you talking about? Portugal is very Catholic and believes in the message of Fatima. The ‘average’ Portugese from there is Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

Mary being “assumed” into heavn isn’t quite the same thing as her simply being in heaven so I am not sure why you chose to include the assumption in your OP.

Can you explain how or why linked the assumption to the apparitions? Couldn’t Mary have appeared to folks on earth w/out her being assumed into heaven as described by your church?

What would be different with Mary being assumed is that her body is resurrected, whereas, the rest of those in heaven have not been re-united to their bodies (I confess I do wonder about those who were raised at the crucifixion, because I have trouble thinking Jesus didn’t take them with Him). If she has a glorified body,then she can do the same types of things that Jesus did, appearing various places on earth.