Who are the early church fathers for SDAs?

[anodos]

I was mailed a booklet containing a reprint of an 1894 article by A.T. Jones condemning the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. As his proof that Catholics are (and always have been) idolatrous, he uses Mary-themed quotes from Cyprian, Theodoret, John Chrysostom and Theodore the Patriarch of Jerusalem as samples of what he terms the “Catholic Fathers”. I’m not sure if this was reflective of SDA beliefs or if it was only his opinion.

I was a visitor to the SDA denomination for a while; I’ve heard sermons that mentioned the Waldensians and Albigensians, but only as examples of those persecuted by Catholicism, never as historical “fathers”. If SDAs do not accept the Early Fathers, to what historical witnesses do they go if they want to learn about what the ancient Christians believed?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I was mailed a booklet containing a reprint of an 1894 article by A.T. Jones condemning the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. As his proof that Catholics are (and always have been) idolatrous, he uses Mary-themed quotes from Cyprian, Theodoret, John Chrysostom and Theodore the Patriarch of Jerusalem as samples of what he terms the “Catholic Fathers”. I’m not sure if this was reflective of SDA beliefs or if it was only his opinion.

I was a visitor to the SDA denomination for a while; I’ve heard sermons that mentioned the Waldensians and Albigensians, but only as examples of those persecuted by Catholicism, never as historical “fathers”. If SDAs do not accept the Early Fathers, to what historical witnesses do they go if they want to learn about what the ancient Christians believed?

If I’m not mistaken, SDAs believe the entire Church in the Old World apostatized soon after the death of the last apostle, while the Church that they believe was present in the New World went extinct a few centuries later, followed by a period in which true Christianity was essentially extinct until the revelations to Joseph Smith.

Because of this I don’t know that they particularly have “Church Fathers” prior to the 19th Century, except for people described in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I’d welcome more information though.

 

[anodos]

If I’m not mistaken, SDAs believe the entire Church in the Old World apostatized soon after the death of the last apostle, while the Church that they believe was present in the New World went extinct a few centuries later, followed by a period in which true Christianity was essentially extinct until the revelations to Joseph Smith.

Because of this I don’t know that they particularly have “Church Fathers” prior to the 19th Century, except for people described in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I’d welcome more information though.

I was thinking of Seventh Day Adventists, not Latter Day Saints.

Both began in 19th century America, though.

 

[Trebor135]

If I’m not mistaken, SDAs believe the entire Church in the Old World apostatized soon after the death of the last apostle, while the Church that they believe was present in the New World went extinct a few centuries later, followed by a period in which true Christianity was essentially extinct until the revelations to Joseph Smith.

Because of this I don’t know that they particularly have “Church Fathers” prior to the 19th Century, except for people described in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I’d welcome more information though.

The group you’ve just described is the Mormons. The abbreviation SDA stands for Seventh-Day Adventists–founded in the nineteenth century as well, by Ellen Gould White. These Restorationists believe that the Catholic Church imposed Sunday as the day of worship on all Christians and as a result the SDA’s have services on Saturday. Their denomination has a strong animus against Catholicism. You’ll hear from at least some of the sect’s adherents that one of the pope’s titles is vicarius filii Dei (this claim is false), it adds up to 666 (this claim is true), and that these points demonstrates Catholicism to be the Antichrist or the Whore of Babylon (this claim is nonsense on its face).

Interestingly enough, the full name of Ellen Gould White also adds up to 666. Thank the Lord for the gift of irony.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Arg. LDS’s vs. SDA’s. My mistake.

 

[anodos]

Arg. LDS’s vs. SDA’s. My mistake.

I get Charles Williams and William Cowper mixed up (CW, WC, both have a “William”). Whenever I was to say “primrose”, “pimpernel” is what comes out. I don’t know what a “relfective” is, but it always appears when I’m reflecting…

 

[jozxc]

it adds up to 666 (this claim is true), and that these points demonstrates Catholicism to be the Antichrist or the Whore of Babylon (this claim is nonsense on its face).http://www.interbankforex.info/g.gif

 

[Pythons]

Early SDA Church Fathers or as they call them Pioneers of the true Faith.

James White: Anti-Trinitarian
Joseph Bates: Anti Trinitarian
Joe Waggoner:Anti Trinitarian
C.E. Cornell: Anti Trinitarian
John Nevins Andrews: Anti Trinitarian
J.N. Loughborowugh: Anti Trinitarian
Uriah Smith: Anti Trinitarian
S.N. Haskell: Anti Trinitarian
A.T. Jones: Anti Trinitarian
Ellet J. Waggoner: Anti Trinitarian
Ellen G. White: Anti Trinitarian

From what research I’ve done the above are the who’s who list of E.C.F’s ( and Mothers ) of the SDA Church.

They all taught Anthropomorphite theology ( the view that God the Father is made of Flesh and has a rectum ) & that Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation - if Christ would have sinned they taught that “God” would have annihilated Christ so He would have eternally ceased to exist.

They have several odd teachings but the above is clearly the most maggoty.

 

[Nicea325]

I was mailed a booklet containing a reprint of an 1894 article by A.T. Jones condemning the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. As his proof that Catholics are (and always have been) idolatrous, he uses Mary-themed quotes from Cyprian, Theodoret, John Chrysostom and Theodore the Patriarch of Jerusalem as samples of what he terms the “Catholic Fathers”. I’m not sure if this was reflective of SDA beliefs or if it was only his opinion.

I was a visitor to the SDA denomination for a while; I’ve heard sermons that mentioned the Waldensians and Albigensians, but only as examples of those persecuted by Catholicism, never as historical “fathers”. If SDAs do not accept the Early Fathers, to what historical witnesses do they go if they want to learn about what the ancient Christians believed?

I frankly never waste me time with SDA’s, Mormons or JW’s. They can never see or comprehend anything past their own shadows.

 

[andrewstx]

Ellen White as the “prophetess” and church mother.

 

[anodos]

Early SDA Church Fathers or as they call them Pioneers of the true Faith.

James White: Anti-Trinitarian
Joseph Bates: Anti Trinitarian
Joe Waggoner:Anti Trinitarian
C.E. Cornell: Anti Trinitarian
John Nevins Andrews: Anti Trinitarian
J.N. Loughborowugh: Anti Trinitarian
Uriah Smith: Anti Trinitarian
S.N. Haskell: Anti Trinitarian
A.T. Jones: Anti Trinitarian
Ellet J. Waggoner: Anti Trinitarian
Ellen G. White: Anti Trinitarian

From what research I’ve done the above are the who’s who list of E.C.F’s ( and Mothers ) of the SDA Church.

They all taught Anthropomorphite theology ( the view that God the Father is made of Flesh and has a rectum ) & that Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation - if Christ would have sinned they taught that “God” would have annihilated Christ so He would have eternally ceased to exist.

They have several odd teachings but the above is clearly the most maggoty.

Thanks for the info. I knew of Haskell, A.T. Jones and (obviously!) Ellen White, but the others seem unfamiliar.

What about early Christian sources? I have read a few SDA essays about the historical practises of the early church, and it seems like they would have had to go back to someone in an attempt to verify this, not just to an 18th or 19th century author. The “27 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists” mentions (but does not dwell on) a few ancient names, including Ignatius of Antioch, and appears to acknowledge that these were Christian authorites - even though it manipulates selected teachings to fit the editor’s views.

 

[anodos]

I frankly never waste me time with SDA’s, Mormons or JW’s. They can never see or comprehend anything past their own shadows.

The SDA denomination is essentially anti-Catholic; apart from this aspect of its nature, I don’t believe it would continue to exist (unlike many other Protestant denominations which - lately, at least - seem to readily accept that Catholicism is one among many possible forms of Christianity).

However, I wanted to mention that, unlike Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is not a cult. Though they reject certain Christian teachings (such as Hell and the immortality of the soul), SDAs do acknowledge the trinity of God, the necessity of baptism (though I’m not sure if they see baptism as being for the remission of sins, or something more like a symbol of obedience), the deity, humanity, death and resurrection of Christ, and the potential to lose one’s salvation, among other valid Christian doctrines.

(I don’t mean to tell you what you probably already know, I just wanted to point out that the Catholic Church views the Adventists as Christians; I’ve come across people who weren’t aware of that. )

 

[anodos]

However, I wanted to mention that, unlike Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is not a cult. Though they reject certain Christian teachings (such as Hell and the immortality of the soul), SDAs do acknowledge the trinity of God, the necessity of baptism (though I’m not sure if they see baptism as being for the remission of sins, or something more like a symbol of obedience), the deity, humanity, death and resurrection of Christ, and the potential to lose one’s salvation, among other valid Christian doctrines.

I should add that these beliefs are in the “27 Fundamentals”, which is my main SDA source. Another poster has mentioned that some doctrines, such as the trinity, were denied by Adventists at one time; I’m not trying to pretend I know better (I don’t! ), I’m just going by what I understand to be current. I haven’t done the extensive research that others have.

 

[Pythons]

Thanks for the info. I knew of Haskell, A.T. Jones and (obviously!) Ellen White, but the others seem unfamiliar.

All the names I mentioned were ‘heavy-weights’ of SDAism.

anodos:

What about early Christian sources? I have read a few SDA essays about the historical practises of the early church, and it seems like they would have had to go back to someone in an attempt to verify this, not just to an 18th or 19th century author.

One of the requirements of SDA theology is that Lucifer took control of the Christ’s Church almost immediately after the death of Christ…
…As such the Catholic Church as well as the Eastern Orthodox Church are the “Beast Power”.
…And all Prot Denominations who accepted the Council of Nicaea ( The Trinity ) are apostate, Babylon, etc.
…As such the SDA’s believe that “ALL” systems other than their own are controlled by Lucifer.

Since the days of Walter Martin ( a Baptist heavy-weight ) the SDA’s have ceased promulgating their “God could have eternally annihilated Christ” Doctrine…
…But it’s still there and can be confirmed by asking any Seventh-day Adventist layman.

I’ve posted direct quotes here on C.A. where I pulled this directly out of their Official Church Archives…
…Not that I would need to as the statements are boldly printed in Ellen White’s most famous books.
…Which SDA’s are happy to give to Catholics.

anodos:

The “27 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists” mentions (but does not dwell on) a few ancient names, including Ignatius of Antioch, and appears to acknowledge that these were Christian authorites - even though it manipulates selected teachings to fit the editor’s views.

I was not aware the SDA Fundamental Beliefs make any mention of Ignatius of Antioch…
…Or of any other E.C.F.
…Where did you see this?

 

[anodos]

…Not that I would need to as the statements are boldly printed in Ellen White’s most famous books.
…Which SDA’s are happy to give to Catholics.

Lol…

I was not aware the SDA Fundamental Beliefs make any mention of Ignatius of Antioch…
…Or of any other E.C.F.
…Where did you see this?

Its in chapter 19, “The Sabbath” (that is the only place I’m aware of). It quotes them dismissively as non-authoritive witnesses who didn’t cite scripture.

"Why did those who were turning from worship on the seventh day choose Sunday and not another day of the week? A major reason was that Christ was resurrected on Sunday; in fact, it was alleged that He had authorized worship on that day. “But, strange as it may seem, not one writer of the second and third centuries ever cited a single Bible verse as authority for the observance of Sunday in the place of the Sabbath. Neither Barnabas, nor Ignatius, nor Justin, nor Irenaeus, nor Tertullian, nor Clement of Rome, nor Clement of Alexandria, nor Origen, nor Cyprian, nor Victorinus, nor any other author who lived near to the time when Jesus lived knew of any such instruction from Jesus or from any part of the Bible.”

 

[Fab82]

Hello,

I’m talk with a SDA on religion right now. From what I have learned he does not know anything about early church fathers and really do not give them much thought when I mention them. He only quotes Ellen White. The quotes are either from one of her many books or visions. He often says that Ellen White is not a founder of the church, even though their interpretation of the bible is solely from her. He says Joseph Bates and James White (Ellen White’s husband) are the founders of the church. Since doing my own research and talking to my friend (ex-boyfriend), I have learned that a lot of info that is on their site is to make them look more in line with other Christian faiths. I do believe they are Christian people but some teachings are strange to me. As far as SDA beliefs on the trinity, I am still a little confused on if they believe in the trinity the same way Catholics believe it to be. When I asked him if he believed in the trinity he said yes. When I asked him to explain it, he left me very confused. My confusion about SDA’s is the reason I joined this site.

 

[anodos]

One of the requirements of SDA theology is that Lucifer took control of the Christ’s Church almost immediately after the death of Christ…
…As such the Catholic Church as well as the Eastern Orthodox Church are the “Beast Power”.
…And all Prot Denominations who accepted the Council of Nicaea ( The Trinity ) are apostate, Babylon, etc.
…As such the SDA’s believe that “ALL” systems other than their own are controlled by Lucifer.

Thanks for sharing your research. I thought that when I read the reference to “the Catholic Fathers” (original post), it might indicate that Adventism viewed other early sources as more “Christian” than these; apparently the hunch was wrong?

I’ve read SDA stories about sects of early Christianity who had to live in caves (due to persecution from “the Beast”), and they were able to preserve true religion because they had their bibles and they were able to keep the Saturday sabbath. I figured this was little more than revisionist history, but I had assumed they went back to something from antiquity that might give rise to and feed this view.

 

[anodos]

Joseph Bates and James White (Ellen White’s husband) are the founders of the church.

Oh, duh…of course I’ve heard of Bates and White before. I just wasn’t placing them…

 

[anodos]

It will be more difficult than I thought to respond to the Adventist friend (who mails me things sometimes). I was not raised SDA and was not taught to view the ancient church as apostate; in fact, many of the churches that I was familiar with were in the process of trying to “become” the ancient church (though this didn’t seem to involve much study of the Fathers, and anyway, how do you become something that no longer exists?).
When I began to read some of the early writings, I was amazed and excited, along with feeling peeved that I had never really been told about early Christianity.

It makes sense to me to go to the early church itself if I want to know what Christianity taught and did from the beginning. It seems that I can’t do so with an Adventist. Resources welcomed, and thank you!

 

[HoosMommie]

I was raised in the SDA tradition by Christian parents who loved the Lord very much. SDAs do believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit–they are baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity to affect a new birth, which to me means the forgiveness of sins and the opportunity to begin anew. Nearly every sermon I heard in the years that I attended, referenced both the scriptures and Ellen White. EGW was given as much weight as the Holy Scriptures and that is one of the reasons I have left that tradition behind and cannot ever return to it. As far as early Christian fathers are concerned, the SDAs do not give them the veneration that the Catholic Church does but do acknowledge the Apostles, etc as the followers of Christ and as those who set the example of evangelization to the world.

However, there are beautiful, God fearing, kind Christians in that tradition as well as all other Protestant traditions. To damn them for not believing as the Catholic Church believes is, in my opinion, unfair. My parents are examples of persons living upright Godly lives, and as examples of such to my siblings and me. I will see them again in Heaven.