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TrueLight
Guest
Sports analogies always make my eyes go vacant.
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TrueLight
Guest
Interesting.
You mean the real traditionalists are obedient to the Church no matter what’s happening, and modernists believe they can disagree with certain things?
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Indyann
Guest
Christ was obedient unto death. The Pope is Christ’s representative on earth. The Holy Spirit guides the Church.The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, as promised by Christ.
Therefore, it doesn’t matter which side of the barque of Peter some fall out of, they are still drowning.
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Will_S
Guest
It is important to remember that such things as permitting altar girls, communion in the hand, etc. are disciplinary decisions. It is not disobedient to privately disagree with such things or to publicly argue for their being forbidden.
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BertBlyleven
Guest
You are the first to know who I am! I’ll have to send you an “autograph”…I always chuckle when people on CA refer to me as “Bert”.
I made that statement simply because he was mentioned above as being against the EF. What you said applies forwards and backwards. If they both truly are valid, then the con-EF attitude many have is unfortunate.
Regarding Sabathia sitting empty handed, this is probably from submitting to the lies of the Dark Side. He needs to rid himself of the empire and put on the armor of Christ (e.g. Boston).
J.R.R. Tolkein is another prominent traditional Catholic.
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TrueLight
Guest
Thank you Revert. I haven’t yet read one of Pope Benedict’s books. Do you know what language he actually writes in before the book is translated?
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TrueLight
Guest
One thing that confuses me is how is the Liturgy of the Hours I currently pray using the Divine Office app, different from any other traditional breviaries (?).
Also, is this the type of Dominican Matins book you were referring to?
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PA650
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From what I have come across, I believe he did.
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Revert_43
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There are a lot of brevaries, the Divine Office app follows the current Liturgy of the Hours that was updated in the 70s after VII. You can find all kinds of info about the different breviaries and the timeline for their development here,
kellerbook.com/
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FAB
Guest
I would disagree with the pope as being a traditionalist, a conservative yes, but not a traditionalist as understood on this site.
He has returned to what my be seen as more sacred norms to the masses he celebrates, that is to be expected, but he has not reversed, as far as I know any reforms of the Second Vatican Council. His allowance to use the EF is more to mend fences and stress that Catholics can worship in different ways and still be Catholic. His work has been to unify not to turn back.
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FAB
Guest
When I first starting haunting the pages of CA some years ago, the first thing I found to be misleading is this forum called Traditional Catholics. My defininition fell along the lines of the the progression of the Church as taught by scripture and by the following the 2000 years of accumulated knowlege an understanding of God as continuing lead by the Holy Spirit. This by the way is the type of traditionalist I see in Pope Benidict.
What I found on this site, although the claim is similiar to what I stated is nothing of the sort. I found an underlying belief that somehow the tradtion of the Church stopped 45 years ago with the Second Vatican Council, or was deverted, and the only way to get the church back on track is the role back time, to start is to bring back the Latin mass, do away with communion in the hand, bring back only the chant, only solomn whorship and an unceasing need to critisize the Church, alleged liturtical abuses and support of groups which hold to pre VII practices as well as individuals, such as those on the list.
Also any time there is an attempt towared reconciliation, such as allowing the EF of the mass, it is never enough. As example the latest rules for the rite of which Fr. Z wasn’t happy about because it was not mandated that the mass be taught in siminaries and what seems to be on his part, not a so much hidden adjenda to contunue to promote that he Church is going in the wrong direction. Which is my definition of a tradtionalist as I see on CA.
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nickybr38
Guest
I’m not sure what a traditionalist is… but I do know that I have a problem with the spirit of dissent I see in a lot of the parishes where I live. I’ve been told I am leaning towards Orthodoxism but I’m not… I’m leaning towards obedience.
My problem with a lot of parishes is this… The Bishop says: Don’t DO this… and the people say: We like it, it makes us feel good, we’re going to do it. That spirit of not respecting authority just irritates me.
Projectors on the wall. Not performing Liturgy correctly. Protestant revivals in the middle of Mass. Holding hands during the Our Father. Gathering children around the altar to say the Our Father. Priests sitting or standing when they’re not ‘supposed’ to… all of it wouldn’t bother me IF the Bishop sanctioned it. But when the people refuse to listen to the Bishops I tend to get annoyed.
Head coverings. Kneeling longer. Standing longer. Singing in Latin. Singing in English. Singing in German. Proper attire. Reverence… none of this makes or breaks a Catholic but a spirit of dissent will tear a person apart.
Honestly, the people who are calling themselves Traditionalists are probably annoyed for the very same reason I am. But I think they haven’t quite recognized the source of their discomfort. They incorrectly might blame Vatican II but it isn’t Vatican II that caused problems, it was a culture that teaches us to be individuals first and communities second.
There’s a reason I grew up with the phrase: DO FOR YOU. BE INDEPENDENT. DO WHAT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD. being drilled into my head by television, school and peers. It’s the next attack and a lot of us are falling for it.
WOW. Ranty time. Sorry. I’ll sneak away now
My problem with a lot of parishes is this… The Bishop says: Don’t DO this… and the people say: We like it, it makes us feel good, we’re going to do it. That spirit of not respecting authority just irritates me.
Projectors on the wall. Not performing Liturgy correctly. Protestant revivals in the middle of Mass. Holding hands during the Our Father. Gathering children around the altar to say the Our Father. Priests sitting or standing when they’re not ‘supposed’ to… all of it wouldn’t bother me IF the Bishop sanctioned it. But when the people refuse to listen to the Bishops I tend to get annoyed.
Head coverings. Kneeling longer. Standing longer. Singing in Latin. Singing in English. Singing in German. Proper attire. Reverence… none of this makes or breaks a Catholic but a spirit of dissent will tear a person apart.
Honestly, the people who are calling themselves Traditionalists are probably annoyed for the very same reason I am. But I think they haven’t quite recognized the source of their discomfort. They incorrectly might blame Vatican II but it isn’t Vatican II that caused problems, it was a culture that teaches us to be individuals first and communities second.
There’s a reason I grew up with the phrase: DO FOR YOU. BE INDEPENDENT. DO WHAT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD. being drilled into my head by television, school and peers. It’s the next attack and a lot of us are falling for it.
WOW. Ranty time. Sorry. I’ll sneak away now
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FAB
Guest
I always find a statement about respect for authorty interesting , considering a number of things you rant about are not against the Bishop’s instruction.
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Not a personal preference of mine but not pohibited
Abuses occur in the EF of the mass, from it’s very begining.
You would have to explain but it might just be the spirit moving the people in worship.
Never pohibited by the bishop and is aform of personal devotion
Perhaps, but depends on the circumstance
you would have to explain.
All changes approved by the bishops
This then is not the Church and it is a continuing battle, which is why we as catholics should not be devided over the things to which you speak.
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nickybr38
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What your Bishop allows and what my Bishop allows could very well be two different things.
As to the children gathering around the altar -Actually I saw this happen in a parish where the Bishop (of that parish) had EXPRESSLY asked the priest not to do that. The priest continued to do it anyway because the laity enjoyed it so much.
I’ve never been to the EF… I’m not presuming the NO is inferior to the EF. I’m saying that it is not the NO or the EF that is the problem - it’s the disrespect for authority that is the problem.
Holding hands during Our Father - again. Your Bishop may not have said; Don’t do this, that doesn’t mean mine hasn’t.
I agree 100%!!! I wasn’t advocating OR railing against any of the things I mentioned. I did say I wouldn’t mind any of it (even being told I HAVE to remove my head covering wouldn’t bother me if it came from the Bishop - in fact I would have spoken to my priest and asked permission to wear my head covering but the people here explained why that wouldn’t be appropriate). What I do mind is the laity continually questioning the Bishop and refusing to listen to his guidance. That bothers me a great deal.
At my parish the Bishop wrote us a letter saying: Don’t do this, this or this (including the children gathering around the altar for the Our Father, and the projector being used for hymns). The week AFTER the letter was read to the congregation the people continued doing the things he expressly told them not to do.
I just don’t understand that kind of disregard.I must have miss worded my post because I get the impression you didn’t understand what I was trying to express. :\ Sorry about that.
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Lormar
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No disrespect meant at all, but Fr. Benedict Groeschel is no traditionalist.
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redrosetea
Guest
He is a saint, and I love him
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Lormar
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I deleted my comment.
Carry on!
Carry on!
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TrueLight
Guest
I’m not that familiar with his viewpoints but I know I love his energy!
What makes him not a traditionalist?
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JReducation
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Traditionalist is not limited to the supporters of the EF. Tradition is very broad. Fr. Mitch is certainly very much a man of Christian Tradition. He also lives and works very much within the framework of Jesuit tradition as it was handed down to them by Ignatius and Xavier. We cannot deny that the Jesuit Tradition is one among several great traditions with the Catholic Church.
I think that in order to understand Fr. Benedict one has to understand Francis of Assisi, his rule, testament and admonitions. Fr. Benedict is actually a very traditional Franciscan, even more so than Archbishop Chaput, whom I happen to have lived with. What you’re seeing is very much what Francis commanded his friars to say and do or not to say and not to do. If you put him into the Franciscan context and you put Franciscnism where it belongs, as one of the Church’s great traditions, Fr. Benedict certainly fits into the list of Traditional Catholic leaders.Father Groeschel is way to religiously indifferent, and he’s all for altar girls…not a very good traditionalist!
I like this list very much. I would also add Sean Cardinal O’Malley and Bishop Felipe Estevez. I would are the cardinal for the same reason that I explained about Fr. Benedict above. He’s a very traditional Franciscan or said in another way, he and Fr. Benedict always strive to walk down that path that Francis painted for us, regardless of what anyone else is doing or saying. That is Traditionalism at its best, because it’s fidelity to the charism and to the Patriarch.
Bishop Estevez, whom I love to death, is also a great model for Traditionalists. He is gentle, humble and conciliatory without sacrificing tradition or being confrontational. He has a very traditional Christian mystique about him.
Archbishop Chaput, well what can I say about him that has not been said by many. He is a wonder and a very nice chap too.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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