C
chriswilliam
Guest
Do the Episcopal believe in transubstantiation or teach it . I belong to the Polishnational catholic we blieve in the true presence but don’t teach it.
- Status
D
Della
Guest
The Episcopal church in America, the ECUSA, believes that the presence of Christ is in the host until it is consumed but that the host and wine do not actually become the body and blood of Christ.
However, the point is mote for those churches that do not have a valid priesthood because only a validly ordained bishop or priest has the charism to consecrate the bread and wine so that they become the body and blood of Christ.
M
Malachi4U
Guest
I do not know much about the Polish National Catholic Church but… If they teach what you do not beleive or vice versa I suggest you find another Church. I would suggest you attend an RCIA program at your nearest Catholic Church of the Latin Rite (i.e. Roman Catholic). If you live in an area with Orthodox Churches then they would be OK to join as well. Any VALID Catholic Church would be OK (Roman Rite prefered of course
).Catholics believe in Consubstantiation. The bread and wine “become” the Flesh and Blood of Christ as stated in Sacred Scripture.
Lutherans “believe” in Transubstantiation where Jesus comes to exist between the molecules of the bread and wine.
A false man-made tradition not supported by Jesus or His Word or history. Episcopols seem to believe in Transubstantiation too?When you attend a Catholic mass you will notice great care taken to handle the Body and Blood of our Christ. When you attend a Lutheran service you will see His “believed” presence between the molecules just swept unto the floor and spilt wine just left for people to step on. A big differance!
But when Protestants say Christ is not present in their communion and that it is symbolic only they are 100% correct! Their communion IS only symbolic. They do not have apostolic validity to make the Eucharist as the Catholics do. Hum, seems Protestants are right on at least one point in their meyham and anarchy and schisms.
M
manualman
Guest
Whoops, the above post is ‘almost’ right.
The CATHOLIC doctrine is TRANSubstantiation. That is, the very substance of the host and the wine become the body and blood of Jesus (not detectable to the senses though).
Lutherans are the ones that believe that the consecrated bread is present alongside Christ ‘con’.
Unless I’ve fallen through an internet time/space tear into bizzaro world where black is white and white is black!
The CATHOLIC doctrine is TRANSubstantiation. That is, the very substance of the host and the wine become the body and blood of Jesus (not detectable to the senses though).
Lutherans are the ones that believe that the consecrated bread is present alongside Christ ‘con’.
Unless I’ve fallen through an internet time/space tear into bizzaro world where black is white and white is black!
M
Mickey
Guest
I think it was an honest mistake on Malachi’s part.
G
GKC
Guest
Hi, Della,
Della:
You can find a wide range of statements from Anglicans, that are all over the map, up to and including agreeing with Trent, Session 13, Canons 1 & 2 and transubstantiation. Most (not all) Anglicans do indeed affirm that the elements, after valid consecration, considering minister, intent, form, and matter, are the very Body and Blood of Christ, same as you. It’s why we have a tabernacle, reverence the altar, reserve the sacrament, and use a piscina, and all that. And no one not validly ordained touches the Body and Blood (i.e., no laity may distribute it).
GKC
Can you find a doctrinally binding statement of ECUSA, or any other Anglican group, that says as much (and the XXXIX Articles are not binding on Anglicans, generally)?
You can find a wide range of statements from Anglicans, that are all over the map, up to and including agreeing with Trent, Session 13, Canons 1 & 2 and transubstantiation. Most (not all) Anglicans do indeed affirm that the elements, after valid consecration, considering minister, intent, form, and matter, are the very Body and Blood of Christ, same as you. It’s why we have a tabernacle, reverence the altar, reserve the sacrament, and use a piscina, and all that. And no one not validly ordained touches the Body and Blood (i.e., no laity may distribute it).
And, pace Apostolicum Curae, and all that went into it, so do Anglicans believe.
GKC
L
littlesheep
Guest
Is that right? And just how many Lutheran Churchs have you seen this happen in? One, Two, Dozen?
No one in who has attended a Catholic mass has ever dropped a crumb or (opps I forgot you only take one kind don’t you, against the express wishes of Christ. “Take eat this is My body… “ Take drink this is My blood…?) a priest has never spilt the wine? I call “flag on the play”
Boy!! I dislike rumors.
Nevertheless, just to let you know Lutherans take great care in handling the Body and Blood also. The consecrated bread is used in later suppers and the consecrated wine drank, thank you!
What we don’t believe is that you must worship bread and wine. I.E. we don’t venerate it as Catholics do.
.
What the priest have some magic power.? It is God Word that make the bread and wine the Body and Blood, not some priest.
In Christ
Just a littlesheep
L
littlesheep
Guest
And another thing! “His “believed” presence between the molecules” Only God knows how His body and blood is present in the Supper and don’t tell me that you do because then you would have solved one of the mysteries of God. He hasn’t told us how He does it, just that He does it. If you know different then please show me chapter and verse.
But wait you have Sacred Tradition to tell you that is what Lutherans believe huh?
In Christ
Just a
littlesheep
But wait you have Sacred Tradition to tell you that is what Lutherans believe huh?
In Christ
Just a
littlesheep
W
Wildkit
Guest
I teach a 7th grade Faith Formation class and we went over this very topic,……yet when I was being taught, with information not as widespread via the internet as it is today,…I just believed.
Yet, look at this miracle at Lanciano,….to me it says it all.
www.trosch.org/inx/lanciano.html
Just as this monk doubted the real presence of Christ in the 8th century, it continues today. Yet today, we have the factual information world wide!
I really enjoy the assumed snide remarks about how this was a fake. As I tell (jokingly) my students, they had technology in the 8th century that made this hoax real. (That is they could slice a piece of the heart with their scalpals).
I never knew this, but how many people know this today?
Another site worth mentioning is:
www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
What is the question again?
Yet, look at this miracle at Lanciano,….to me it says it all.
www.trosch.org/inx/lanciano.html
Just as this monk doubted the real presence of Christ in the 8th century, it continues today. Yet today, we have the factual information world wide!
I really enjoy the assumed snide remarks about how this was a fake. As I tell (jokingly) my students, they had technology in the 8th century that made this hoax real. (That is they could slice a piece of the heart with their scalpals).
I never knew this, but how many people know this today?
Another site worth mentioning is:
www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
What is the question again?
S
St.Eric
Guest
Wrong. We have both species as well. I eat his flesh AND drink his blood everytime I attend Mass.
S
St.Eric
Guest
We don’t beleive in worshipping bread and wine either. that would be idolatry and blasphemus. The Catholic church teaches we only worship the Triune God, (it’s true, we do not worship the Pope either.
) i.e., God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We worship Jesus Christ the only Son of the Father, who continues to humble himself for all of our sake and makes himself present to us under the appreance of bread and wine.
C
chriswilliam
Guest
The PolishNationalCatholic teaches that the eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ. We don’t call it transubstantiation because naming it means we understand how it happens. It’s one of God very holy mystery above all understanding. Only God knows how its done.I do not know much about the Polish National Catholic Church but… If they teach what you do not beleive or vice versa I suggest you find another Church. I would suggest you attend an RCIA program at your nearest Catholic Church of the Latin Rite (i.e. Roman Catholic). If you live in an area with Orthodox Churches then they would be OK to join as well. Any VALID Catholic Church would be OK (Roman Rite prefered of course
Catholics believe in Consubstantiation. The bread and wine “become” the Flesh and Blood of Christ as stated in Sacred Scripture.
Lutherans “believe” in Transubstantiation where Jesus comes to exist between the molecules of the bread and wine.
When you attend a Catholic mass you will notice great care taken to handle the Body and Blood of our Christ. When you attend a Lutheran service you will see His “believed” presence between the molecules just swept unto the floor and spilt wine just left for people to step on. A big differance!
But when Protestants say Christ is not present in their communion and that it is symbolic only they are 100% correct! Their communion IS only symbolic. They do not have apostolic validity to make the Eucharist as the Catholics do. Hum, seems Protestants are right on at least one point in their meyham and anarchy and schisms.
C
chriswilliam
Guest
The Polish National Catholic and the Roman Catholics were holding dialogues for 25yrs. The RC says we have apostolic sesseccion so we have a valid priesthood eucharist and other sacarments.
T
THutch04
Guest
The way I was taught (I was raised Episcopalian, am currently in the TAC, and am in the process of becoming Catholic), was that the Episcopal Church believes in the Real Presence. We didn’t define how it happened, but when we receive the Eucharist, we receive the Real body and blood of Jesus Christ.
R
Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
Peace be with you!Is that right? And just how many Lutheran Churchs have you seen this happen in? One, Two, Dozen?
No one in who has attended a Catholic mass has ever dropped a crumb or (opps I forgot you only take one kind don’t you, against the express wishes of Christ. “Take eat this is My body… “ Take drink this is My blood…?) a priest has never spilt the wine? I call “flag on the play”
Boy!! I dislike rumors.
Nevertheless, just to let you know Lutherans take great care in handling the Body and Blood also. The consecrated bread is used in later suppers and the consecrated wine drank, thank you!
What we don’t believe is that you must worship bread and wine. I.E. we don’t venerate it as Catholics do.
.
What the priest have some magic power.? It is God Word that make the bread and wine the Body and Blood, not some priest.
In Christ
Just a littlesheep
We do recieve both the body and blood of Christ. They are fully present in each of the two species. Therefore, if we recieve one of the species and not the other, we recieve both the body and the blood of Christ.
Both species must be CONSECRATED; both species need not be given to the congregation. Although, most every Catholic Church I’ve been to these days offers both species.
Boy!! I dislike rumors.
We also don’t believe that bread and wine are to be worshipped. However, we believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of the Most High, is to be worshipped! That is what we are doing by worshipping the CONSECRATED Eucharist. It is no longer bread and wine…it is FULLY Jesus Christ, and therefore deserving of our worship.
Boy!! I dislike rumors.
We also don’t believe that priests have any “magical powers”. We believe that it is the words of Jesus Christ spoken by one who is a direct successor of the Apostles who Christ gave this authority to (the authority to perform a consecration).
Boy!! I dislike rumors.
In Christ,
Rand
L
littlesheep
Guest
Don’t you just love it when rumors fly? The point of me being here is to learn. I must admit I took it as an affront when someone above wrote
Another thing I have noticed is that not all who say they are Catholic or Lutheran believe what the official doctrine of their respective Confessions states. And they say some pretty dumb things. And that happens on both sides of the coin. But when 4 out of 6 state that they are praying to The Virgin Mary for instance,. I take that as what most Catholics believe. So ignorance of the confessions works both ways. You say that you don’t worship the bread and wine; good for you, there are others who quite empathically say they do. I say that the Papal Office is the Anti-Christ. There are Lutherans that don’t believe that either. But when a discussion as to why as to either way, nobody takes the time to see the other sides’ point of view or search the Scriptures, and there is the catch.
Read why The Apology to the Augsburg Confession was written. Read what was the sticky points between the two schools of thought were and still are. Read the “Cotrfutatio Pontificia” (contriafutration (spelling?)) to the Augsburg Confession and see why the Luther and the Lutheran went the way we did. As the Bible says “It is better to obey God then man”
There are some things we will disagree on such as the how why and when where of Justification. (That is the big point by the way) but walking all over the Body and Blood of our Savior is not one of them.
PAX
Just a
littlesheep
See when Lutherans and Catholics get into discussions about what they believe, I think sometimes they talk past each other. I think I know the Lutheran Confessions pretty darn well. And I have read the Roman Catholic Catechism, which is suppose to be an explanation of your doctrine and there are some fundamental differences between the two but no one wants to discuss those. They would rather bash the Lutherans, well I can bash back. But that is not the point of a discussion board and I ask patience when I point out something obviously stupid either out of ignorance of malice. Please before bashing the “heretic Lutherans” learn a little something about them. I think the Book Of Concord states the Christian Faith very well. There is some things in it that confession that nobody wants to hear because of pride or just plain “ I don’t buy that” I just happen to be one that does take my Confession seriously.
Another thing I have noticed is that not all who say they are Catholic or Lutheran believe what the official doctrine of their respective Confessions states. And they say some pretty dumb things. And that happens on both sides of the coin. But when 4 out of 6 state that they are praying to The Virgin Mary for instance,. I take that as what most Catholics believe. So ignorance of the confessions works both ways. You say that you don’t worship the bread and wine; good for you, there are others who quite empathically say they do. I say that the Papal Office is the Anti-Christ. There are Lutherans that don’t believe that either. But when a discussion as to why as to either way, nobody takes the time to see the other sides’ point of view or search the Scriptures, and there is the catch.
Read why The Apology to the Augsburg Confession was written. Read what was the sticky points between the two schools of thought were and still are. Read the “Cotrfutatio Pontificia” (contriafutration (spelling?)) to the Augsburg Confession and see why the Luther and the Lutheran went the way we did. As the Bible says “It is better to obey God then man”
There are some things we will disagree on such as the how why and when where of Justification. (That is the big point by the way) but walking all over the Body and Blood of our Savior is not one of them.
PAX
Just a
littlesheep
C
catsrus
Guest
You claim you came to this forum to learn and then you post a definitive comment like that.
I would suggest, that along with the “confessions”, you incorporate into your reading list some history of The Catholic Church and The Faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgens.
As to your contention that we do not know lutheranism, several of us are converts from it. I was raised and catachized in the lutheran church and left it because I found the fullness of the Faith and Truth is only in The One, Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church founded by Christ himself (Matt.16:18) .
And, no matter how he tried, and try he did, Luther did not prevail against The Holy Church established by Christ Himself. He only managed to draw discontented Catholics to his heresy, which is not “prevailing”; only starting his own church; the church of Martin Luther.
Thanks, I’ll stick with the church of Christ.
S
St.Eric
Guest
. I say that the Papal Office is the Anti-Christ. There are Lutherans that don’t believe that either. said:
W
Wildkit
Guest
Little Sheep – or anyone else:
I posted a response (# 9) that has not been addressed… Whether or not a Protestant treats a host one way or another is really immaterial from my perspective. Nevertheless, can someone explain this Eucharistic miracle now more fully understood as of 1970 with our improved technology, why don’t we see this in Protestant cultures?
Transubstantiation occurs via a priest. Not by me or any minister.
trosch.org/inx/lanciano.html
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
I posted a response (# 9) that has not been addressed… Whether or not a Protestant treats a host one way or another is really immaterial from my perspective. Nevertheless, can someone explain this Eucharistic miracle now more fully understood as of 1970 with our improved technology, why don’t we see this in Protestant cultures?
Transubstantiation occurs via a priest. Not by me or any minister.
trosch.org/inx/lanciano.html
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
L
littlesheep
Guest
Wildkit - Can miracles be explained by technology? They wouldn’t be miracles then would they?
catsrus
And since you were raised Lutheran I would be interested what part of the Book of Concord you didn’t agree with and why, and why it made you leave the Lutheran Confession. See that book has been around for almost 500 years and as yet nobody has proved where it goes against Scripture. Oh it can be proved that it goes against Tradition but not Scripture. P.S If it does go against Scripture, I’ll be the first to toss it out AGAINST ALL Lutheran tradition.
One of the things that I have a hard time with is when Tradition becomes dogma, a little history lesson.
There was a man who once fought against tradition when it had become dogma. Now this man was a very good man, he followed the traditions of his time up to a point. See at eight days he was circumcised. At the age of 12 he was Bar Mitzvahed, but at 30 he started to rile against some of the church’s tradition. Most of what he taught rubbed the church leaders the wrong way. These church leaders had a lot of Tradition behind them, almost 500 years worth and his teachings went against the grain. So much so that the church leaders with whom he was in conflict with hated him. He was breaking their Traditions left and right. It took them 3 years, but they finally had him nailed to a cross. His story has been written down for us in 4 books. What was is source of his teachings “Have you not read?”
Matt 12:3 He said to them, “** Have you not read** what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him:
Matt 12:5 Or** *have you not read *** in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?
Matt 19:4 He answered, " ***Have you not read *** that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
Matt 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, ***Have you not read *** what was said to you by God:
Matt 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
Mark 12:10 Have you not read this Scripture: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
Mark 12:26 And as for the dead being raised, Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
Luke 6:3 And Jesus answered them, " ***Have you not read * ** what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
seems like Scripture to me. Now just who was this renegade? God, God incarnate, The Lord Jesus Christ. And if God don’t like Tradition turned into dogma why should we?
Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
Luke 24:32 They said to each other, "Did not our hearts burn within us while He talked to us on the road, while He opened to us the Scriptures?"
Thank You St. Eric Amen
PAX
Just a
littlesheep
See what? Miracles? Have you looked? Every time a child or adult is baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit there is the miracle of a new birth in Christ, of a sinner, turned saint. I’m sure it happens many times a week through out the world. Not only in the Protestant cultures, but in the Catholic ones also.
catsrus
Ok I’ll ask- are you willing to discuss my statement or just write me off as a nut and have the moderators slap me up side the head? Hay we could even talk it off board, probably should I would get less hassle that way but then I would have only one point of view, yours. And I could be accused of trying to convert you back. No thanks not here to do that. Start a new thread with that title? Naw - the Board would get so clogged up with people lining up to bash me it would have to be closed down within 30 minutes or so. We can continue on the thread I started What Lutherans Confess or we can hijack the other thread Why do Lutherans believe the Pope is the antichrist? In fact now to think of it, that is probability where I should have been when I made that statement.
And since you were raised Lutheran I would be interested what part of the Book of Concord you didn’t agree with and why, and why it made you leave the Lutheran Confession. See that book has been around for almost 500 years and as yet nobody has proved where it goes against Scripture. Oh it can be proved that it goes against Tradition but not Scripture. P.S If it does go against Scripture, I’ll be the first to toss it out AGAINST ALL Lutheran tradition.
One of the things that I have a hard time with is when Tradition becomes dogma, a little history lesson.
There was a man who once fought against tradition when it had become dogma. Now this man was a very good man, he followed the traditions of his time up to a point. See at eight days he was circumcised. At the age of 12 he was Bar Mitzvahed, but at 30 he started to rile against some of the church’s tradition. Most of what he taught rubbed the church leaders the wrong way. These church leaders had a lot of Tradition behind them, almost 500 years worth and his teachings went against the grain. So much so that the church leaders with whom he was in conflict with hated him. He was breaking their Traditions left and right. It took them 3 years, but they finally had him nailed to a cross. His story has been written down for us in 4 books. What was is source of his teachings “Have you not read?”
Matt 12:3 He said to them, “** Have you not read** what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him:
Matt 12:5 Or** *have you not read *** in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?
Matt 19:4 He answered, " ***Have you not read *** that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
Matt 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, ***Have you not read *** what was said to you by God:
Matt 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
Mark 12:10 Have you not read this Scripture: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
Mark 12:26 And as for the dead being raised, Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
Luke 6:3 And Jesus answered them, " ***Have you not read * ** what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
seems like Scripture to me. Now just who was this renegade? God, God incarnate, The Lord Jesus Christ. And if God don’t like Tradition turned into dogma why should we?
Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
Luke 24:32 They said to each other, "Did not our hearts burn within us while He talked to us on the road, while He opened to us the Scriptures?"
Thank You St. Eric Amen
PAX
Just a
littlesheep
- Status