Who Can Do What?

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Wendy_Stewart

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Although I have learned a lot about Catholicism during RCIA (adult convert from Baptist) and through my own research, I am still confused about a couple of things.

We just got a permanent deacon at our parish and I was still unclear on the role he plays in relation to the priests. Now that has been cleared up, I have another set of questions.

At noon mass on Friday the book lists places where the priest, deacon, or lay leader speaks and then everyone else speaks. So, my question is who can be a lay leader? With the current priest shortage, I know many religious sisters who are filling in as best they can, but where is the line between what a woman can do with regards to the faithful? This would include reading the gospel, giving a homily, speaking at a funeral, etc.

I understand the Holy Orders and I have no issue with that. I do like to preach, teach, and counsel. I also like to help out when I can, especially if there is no priest available, in regards to visiting others and being a Eucharistic minister.

Is there a place where I can read about this in plain language? All of your help is appreciated!

Thank you in advance!
 
As a general rule, anyone can read. Many dioceses take the office of Reader very seriously and offer training days and retreats. Others allow a more casual approach. Once you are fully received into the Catholic Church and become part of the Parish community, you may be asked if you would like to be a Reader. A few years ago, I was asked to read (in French) at a church in Lille - that’s what happens if you wear a tie to church;) I did my best Charles De Gaulle impression - I hope at least some of the congregation could understand me.

Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are commissioned by the diocese and the role requires a high degree of commitment from the individual. Again practice varies between dioceses. The General Instructions of the Roman Missal allow a priest to ask any lay person, known to him to be of good standing, to assist in the distribution of Holy Communion at Mass and there is a particular blessing provided for a temporary minister.

When I was in my teens, I used to assist my parish priest who was quite ill and often had to say Mass from a chair. This was long before the days of Extraordinary Ministers. One week he asked me to distribute Holy Communion which I did without protest, but I asked him afterwards whether he actually had the authority to do this - even in in casu necessitate. He replied that with his authority I could perform any of the prayers or actions of the Mass apart from the Eucharistic Prayer and preaching the Gospel. I’d need the Bishop’s authority to do that - and if I received it, to let him know because I would have just been ordained. Now that might not be quite in accordance with Catholic practice, but it sums up the theology quite well.
 
In parishes without a priest, or who share a priest, lay people regularly lead various types of prayer services - liturgy of the hours, as one example. They also hold “communion services” which are the liturgy of the Word and a distribution of reserved consecrated hosts.

At a parish with a priest, a lay person can read the first and second readings, and responsorial psalm during Mass, distribute commuion as an extraordinary minister, lead the singing, including the memorial acclamation, as well as things like collect the offering, and bring up the gifts.
 
Wendy_Stewart said:
Although I have learned a lot about Catholicism during RCIA (adult convert from Baptist) and through my own research, I am still confused about a couple of things.

We just got a permanent deacon at our parish and I was still unclear on the role he plays in relation to the priests. Now that has been cleared up, I have another set of questions.

At noon mass on Friday the book lists places where the priest, deacon, or lay leader speaks and then everyone else speaks. So, my question is who can be a lay leader? With the current priest shortage, I know many religious sisters who are filling in as best they can, but where is the line between what a woman can do with regards to the faithful? This would include reading the gospel, giving a homily, speaking at a funeral, etc.

I understand the Holy Orders and I have no issue with that. I do like to preach, teach, and counsel. I also like to help out when I can, especially if there is no priest available, in regards to visiting others and being a Eucharistic minister.

Is there a place where I can read about this in plain language? All of your help is appreciated!

Thank you in advance!
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You could read at Mass and other liturgies. To do this on a regular basis you are normally trained and commissioned for the task. At Mass only sacred ministers can read the Gospel. It is the proper function of the deacon. However, when no deacon is present the priest reads the gospel. Likewise, at Mass it must be a cleric who preaches the homily. Usually this will be the celebrant but it could be another bishop, priest, or deacon. At a Funeral Mass the homily must also be given by a cleric. Towards the end of the Funeral Mass a member of the family may be allowed to say a few words about the deceased. In general, eulogies are frowned upon. Outside of Mass if the readings are being read by a lay person, let’s say during the Divine Office, they can read from any book of scripture including the Gospel.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
You could read at Mass and other liturgies. To do this on a regular basis you are normally trained and commissioned for the task. At Mass only sacred ministers can read the Gospel. It is the proper function of the deacon. However, when no deacon is present the priest reads the gospel. Likewise, at Mass it must be a cleric who preaches the homily. Usually this will be the celebrant but it could be another bishop, priest, or deacon. At a Funeral Mass the homily must also be given by a cleric. Towards the end of the Funeral Mass a member of the family may be allowed to say a few words about the deceased. In general, eulogies are frowned upon. Outside of Mass if the readings are being read by a lay person, let’s say during the Divine Office, they can read from any book of scripture including the Gospel.
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Actually, eulogies aren’t allowed at all during a funeral liturgy (the Mass, the liturgical wake service with a priest, deacon, or lay minister or the graveside services).

It is not an act directed toward honoring the deceased, though this may occur in passing. For this reason, it is forbidden by the Church for there to be a eulogy within the funeral liturgy. The homily of the priest or deacon draws the assembly’s attention to the mercy and love of God and to the Paschal Mystery; while the life and death of the deceased are spoken about only in reference to these.
cf. Order of Christian Funerals, Prænotanda, no. 27.
 
Wendy_Stewart said:
Although I have learned a lot about Catholicism during RCIA (adult convert from Baptist) and through my own research, I am still confused about a couple of things.

We just got a permanent deacon at our parish and I was still unclear on the role he plays in relation to the priests. Now that has been cleared up, I have another set of questions.

At noon mass on Friday the book lists places where the priest, deacon, or lay leader speaks and then everyone else speaks. So, my question is who can be a lay leader? With the current priest shortage, I know many religious sisters who are filling in as best they can, but where is the line between what a woman can do with regards to the faithful? This would include reading the gospel, giving a homily, speaking at a funeral, etc.

I understand the Holy Orders and I have no issue with that. I do like to preach, teach, and counsel. I also like to help out when I can, especially if there is no priest available, in regards to visiting others and being a Eucharistic minister.

Is there a place where I can read about this in plain language? All of your help is appreciated!

Thank you in advance!
Click to expand...
If you like to preach and teach then once you have become a Catholic and continue to learn I would suggest youth ministry. Plenty of room for talks, teaching, and leading. Plus, converts can be more excited about the faith than teens whose parents are making them take confirmation classes so your enthusiasm could be beneficial for them as well!
Most parishes have a youth ministry director and they are always looking for good leaders to help them.
 
TheMc said:
Actually, eulogies aren’t allowed at all during a funeral liturgy (the Mass, the liturgical wake service with a priest, deacon, or lay minister or the graveside services).

It is not an act directed toward honoring the deceased, though this may occur in passing. For this reason, it is forbidden by the Church for there to be a eulogy within the funeral liturgy. The homily of the priest or deacon draws the assembly’s attention to the mercy and love of God and to the Paschal Mystery; while the life and death of the deceased are spoken about only in reference to these.
cf. Order of Christian Funerals, Prænotanda, no. 27.
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The funeral rite itself states (#170):

"Following the prayer after communion, the priest goes to a place near the coffin. The assisting ministers carry the censer and holy water, if these are to be used.

“A member or friend of the family may speak in remembrance of the deceased before the final commendation begins.”
 
agapewolf said:
The funeral rite itself states (#170):

"Following the prayer after communion, the priest goes to a place near the coffin. The assisting ministers carry the censer and holy water, if these are to be used.

“A member or friend of the family may speak in remembrance of the deceased before the final commendation begins.”
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I assume that’s in the US. The Canadian rite has that at the Vigil, not the funeral.
 
TheMc said:
Actually, eulogies aren’t allowed at all during a funeral liturgy (the Mass, the liturgical wake service with a priest, deacon, or lay minister or the graveside services).

It is not an act directed toward honoring the deceased, though this may occur in passing. For this reason, it is forbidden by the Church for there to be a eulogy within the funeral liturgy. The homily of the priest or deacon draws the assembly’s attention to the mercy and love of God and to the Paschal Mystery; while the life and death of the deceased are spoken about only in reference to these.
cf. Order of Christian Funerals, Prænotanda, no. 27.
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I said they were frowned upon because of what does actually happen. The Rite itself forbids them. Nevertheless they do tend to creep into Funeral Masses. That doesn’t just happen in the words of the family member towards the end of Mass but often in the priest’s homily too. There have been Funeral Masses I’ve attended where a not very nice person has been virtually canonised.
 
agapewolf said:
The funeral rite itself states (#170):

"Following the prayer after communion, the priest goes to a place near the coffin. The assisting ministers carry the censer and holy water, if these are to be used.

“A member or friend of the family may speak in remembrance of the deceased before the final commendation begins.”
Click to expand...
Matthew_Holford said:
I said they were frowned upon because of what does actually happen. The Rite itself forbids them. Nevertheless they do tend to creep into Funeral Masses. That doesn’t just happen in the words of the family member towards the end of Mass but often in the priest’s homily too. There have been Funeral Masses I’ve attended where a not very nice person has been virtually canonised.
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The article that speaks of Eulogies is the one on the homily. The priest can’t give a eulogy. But once you allow friends or family to speak all bets are off. That’s why the Canadian rite has that at the Vigil. If the family insists on a eulogy, in our parish it’s done before the casket is brought up.
 
These are excellent questions I’ve asked myself. I look forward to seeing the replies on these. Blessings to you
 
First, let me thank you all for your assistance in this very technical matter! The knowledge you have shared has been a blessing.

I do want to clear up one thing: perhaps I was not clear but I am Catholic. I was received into the Church at the Easter vigil in 2010 🙂 Although there is a lot we all don’t know, I am discerning a vocation to religious life at the rip old age of 32 🙂

In any case, I look forwar to seein more replies. As I said before, my parish hasn’t had a deacon in a long time so I wasn’t used to seeing one on a regular basis to understand their role among others.
 
Wendy_Stewart said:
First, let me thank you all for your assistance in this very technical matter! The knowledge you have shared has been a blessing.

I do want to clear up one thing: perhaps I was not clear but I am Catholic. I was received into the Church at the Easter vigil in 2010 🙂 Although there is a lot we all don’t know, I am discerning a vocation to religious life at the rip old age of 32 🙂

In any case, I look forwar to seein more replies. As I said before, my parish hasn’t had a deacon in a long time so I wasn’t used to seeing one on a regular basis to understand their role among others.
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32 isn’t that old. There’s a woman posting in the vocations forum and she’s 45 and very seriously thinking about religious life.
 
Phemie said:
The article that speaks of Eulogies is the one on the homily. The priest can’t give a eulogy. But once you allow friends or family to speak all bets are off. That’s why the Canadian rite has that at the Vigil. If the family insists on a eulogy, in our parish it’s done before the casket is brought up.
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I know the homily mustn’t be a eulogy. Some priests round here need to know that too.😃 About three years ago I went to the Funeral Mass of a friend’s father. To be frank he was an absolutely horrible man. He was emotional, physically, and psychologically abusive to his wife and children. By the end of the priest’s homily I thought the priest was going to say and now we can add St. so-and-so to the list of saints!:eek:
 
Matthew_Holford said:
I know the homily mustn’t be a eulogy. Some priests round here need to know that too.😃 About three years ago I went to the Funeral Mass of a friend’s father. To be frank he was an absolutely horrible man. He was emotional, physically, and psychologically abusive to his wife and children. By the end of the priest’s homily I thought the priest was going to say and now we can add St. so-and-so to the list of saints!:eek:
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and the sad thing is, that man probably won’t get any prayers, if he happened to make it to purgatory. A priest did this to my godfather, who was a pretty good person, but committed suicide. I was very angry, since he could have asked us all to pray for her. But no…
 
TheMc said:
and the sad thing is, that man probably won’t get any prayers, if he happened to make it to purgatory.
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Yes, but that wasn’t really the point I was trying to make. We’re discussing eulogies. We know they shouldn’t happen but they do. I think what you raise is a different issue. Of course, if God is willing to forgive anything so should we mere mortals. Yes, you’re right everyone who’s died should be prayed for. I think this man will be; his youngest daughter has some rather unusual memories of a kindly, affable man.
 
Getting back to the question, afaik, all of the liturgies in the Apostolic churches (Eastern & Roman Catolicism; Oriental & Eastern Orthodoxy, etc.) presume that a deacon is present, and have a presribed role for him.

Most (all?) permit a priest to exercise the deacon’s portions if none is present (e.g., reading the Gospel, litanies, some of the exhortations), but this should not happen if a deacon is present.

Similarly, deacons and priests should not take the lay roles when a lamany is present who can fulfil the role.

hawk
 
dochawk said:
Getting back to the question, afaik, all of the liturgies in the Apostolic churches (Eastern & Roman Catolicism; Oriental & Eastern Orthodoxy, etc.) presume that a deacon is present, and have a presribed role for him.

Most (all?) permit a priest to exercise the deacon’s portions if none is present (e.g., reading the Gospel, litanies, some of the exhortations), but this should not happen if a deacon is present.

Similarly, deacons and priests should not take the lay roles when a lamany is present who can fulfil the role.

hawk
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I don’t know about the others, but the GIRM gives the rules for a Mass with a Deacon, and a Mass with no Deacon. For example, it’s the role of the Deacon to read the Gospel but if no Deacon is present a priest who is not the celebrant should read it. Only when there is no deacon and no other priest does the celebrant read it. In practical terms it means that for most of us the celebrant reads it at most Masses in our parishes.

The only lay person that they don’t replace is the reader if there is one available. If there is no reader available, the celebrant also reads the first and second readings.
 
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