who can forgive sin

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rev_kevin

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We had this discussion on another thread but it was off the topic so I wanted to continue the discussion.
The question is who has the authority to forgive sin?
John 20:23 has been brought up
“If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven.”
What does this mean to you and why?
 
let’s see who is Jesus talking to. to the apostles, so my guess is, it means the apostles and their successors have the power from Jesus Christ to forgive or to retain our sins.
 
puzzleannie said:
let’s see who is Jesus talking to. to the apostles, so my guess is, it means the apostles and their successors have the power from Jesus Christ to forgive or to retain our sins.
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Could it possibly mean the Jesus gave the disciples their Spirit power and Spirit guided mission, their mission being to preach the Gospel of Jesus so people’s sins might be forgiven because God is the only one who can forgive sin. Now Jesus gave the disciples the privilege of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message.
 
rev_kevin said:
Could it possibly mean the Jesus gave the disciples their Spirit power and Spirit guided mission, their mission being to preach the Gospel of Jesus so people’s sins might be forgiven because God is the only one who can forgive sin. Now Jesus gave the disciples the privilege of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message.
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I think your making a good point, and one that should be argued for and against very, very carefully, which you are, this is just a reminder! 😉

I think this is a matter of faith, not reason. For example, “I have faith that confession with a priest absolves sins through God” and “God alone, no priest needed” Well, it’s tough to argue!

This is, clearly, just my opinion, and I hope I didn’t offend anyone or not portray it well. It just is heartbreaking to me to have so many divisions in the church of Christianity.
 
Two verses before John 20:23.

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”

Jesus was sent by the Father to forgive sins. So, He in turn is sending his apostles to do the same, as well those that succeed them.
 
rev_kevin said:
We had this discussion on another thread but it was off the topic so I wanted to continue the discussion.
The question is who has the authority to forgive sin?
John 20:23 has been brought up
“If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven.”
What does this mean to you and why?
Click to expand...
Well Christ gave that power to the Apostles not us. It’s part of the Apostolic ministry
 
puzzleannie said:
let’s see who is Jesus talking to. to the apostles, so my guess is, it means the apostles and their successors have the power from Jesus Christ to forgive or to retain our sins.
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The text states disciples, not apostles. So there would be nothing in the text to restrict it to the Twelve. In fact, a few verses later, it differentiates the Twelve from the disciples generally; but they were a number of people in the room.
 
rev_kevin said:
Could it possibly mean the Jesus gave the disciples their Spirit power and Spirit guided mission, their mission being to preach the Gospel of Jesus so people’s sins might be forgiven because God is the only one who can forgive sin. Now Jesus gave the disciples the privilege of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message.
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I know this is a common way of rendering this passage, so as to avoid the possible sacramentality of the the priesthood.

However, it requires that one join sides with the enemies of Christ. It was His enemies that said “only God has the power to forgive sins”. On the contrary, the disciples and those who believed in Him “rejoiced that God had given this power to men”. Not “a man” (Jesus) but “to men”.

Jesus did not breathe upon all those whom he sent to preach. God only “breathed” twice this way, once when He blew into man’s nostrils the breath of life, and the other when He blew into His Church the breath of life.

He had commissioned them to preach previously. Why add “whose sins you retain…”?
Contextually, it makes no sense if it relates to preaching. The Apostles do not “retain” the sins of people because they don’t accept the Gospel. People start in a default condition of being separated from God’s grace. No one needs to “retain” their sins. As Jesus taught “you will die in your sins, if you do not come to Me”.
 
TriuneUnity said:
The text states disciples, not apostles. So there would be nothing in the text to restrict it to the Twelve. In fact, a few verses later, it differentiates the Twelve from the disciples generally; but they were a number of people in the room.
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And there were more than 12 Apostles, as well. The point is, He gave this instruction to those who were ordained, and their successors.
 
Originally Posted by TriuneUnity
The text states disciples, not apostles. So there would be nothing in the text to restrict it to the Twelve. In fact, a few verses later, it differentiates the Twelve from the disciples generally; but they were a number of people in the room.

Exactly! Not restricted to the 12 but their successors. The apostles commissioned successor called bishops,mentioned in scripture.If Jesus gave His apostles authority,then the apostles gave it to their successors. Authority did not cease to exist with the death of the apostles.
 
As a side note, let’s keep in mind that in order for this instruction to forgive or retain to function, the forgiver/retainer must first know what the sin is, ie, confession. How else could the apostles, and in turn, the bishops and priests who succeeded them even make that discernment? Can’t forgive/retain if they don’t know first what the problem is.
 
T_More said:
As a side note, let’s keep in mind that in order for this instruction to forgive or retain to function, the forgiver/retainer must first know what the sin is, ie, confession. How else could the apostles, and in turn, the bishops and priests who succeeded them even make that discernment? Can’t forgive/retain if they don’t know first what the problem is.
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What kind of sin would they retain? If you confess your sin and truly mean it then your sins will be forgiven. How would they know if you truly meant it or not? When I was Catholic and went to confession (which I did not like to do) the priest never retained any of my sins. Are there certain ones that they will retain if so why?
 
rev_kevin said:
What kind of sin would they retain? If you confess your sin and truly mean it then your sins will be forgiven. How would they know if you truly meant it or not? When I was Catholic and went to confession (which I did not like to do) the priest never retained any of my sins. Are there certain ones that they will retain if so why?
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Since the efficacy of Holy Absolution is tied in to the promise of the gospel, the Church retains the right to retain the sins of any who do not repent of their sins and believe the gospel. If I say to a Christian “I do not repent and do not believe” and that Christian says “your sins are retained,” it is an objectively true statement. That retention of sin is confirmed by heaven.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Since the efficacy of Holy Absolution is tied in to the promise of the gospel, the Church retains the right to retain the sins of any who do not repent of their sins and believe the gospel. If I say to a Christian “I do not repent and do not believe” and that Christian says “your sins are retained,” it is an objectively true statement. That retention of sin is confirmed by heaven.
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If you say I do not repent and do not believe then you are the one retaining your own sin. It don’t take a priest to say your sin is retained, its pretty obvious that it is retained.
 
rev_kevin said:
Could it possibly mean the Jesus gave the disciples their Spirit power and Spirit guided mission, their mission being to preach the Gospel of Jesus so people’s sins might be forgiven because God is the only one who can forgive sin. Now Jesus gave the disciples the privilege of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message.
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NO, it did not say so. The verse is quite obvious.
 
rev_kevin said:
If you say I do not repent and do not believe then you are the one retaining your own sin. It don’t take a priest to say your sin is retained, its pretty obvious that it is retained.
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It is more than retaining your own sin, however. When the Church excommunicates someone, for example, they are actually excommunicated. They are not excommunicated in theory, but in reality. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn’t have given the Church the authority to do it in His name.
 
rev_kevin said:
Could it possibly mean the Jesus gave the disciples their Spirit power and Spirit guided mission, their mission being to preach the Gospel of Jesus so people’s sins might be forgiven because God is the only one who can forgive sin. Now Jesus gave the disciples the privilege of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message.
Click to expand...
:yup: It could.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Since the efficacy of Holy Absolution is tied in to the promise of the gospel, the Church retains the right to retain the sins of any who do not repent of their sins and believe the gospel. If I say to a Christian “I do not repent and do not believe” and that Christian says “your sins are retained,” it is an objectively true statement. That retention of sin is confirmed by heaven.
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You said if a Christian tells another Christian “I do not repent and do not believe” and the one Christian says "your sins are retained. If one Christian can do it to another Christian then why is a priest needed to say “your sins are retained” Now is this just for Catholic Christians or for all Christians?
You did not say anything about excomunication from the Church in this post but you did in the one after this.
 
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