who can forgive sin

[CMatt25]

Doesn’t the bible say we all should confess our sins to eachother?

:yup: and it teaches forgiveness too

 

[TriuneUnity]

You said if a Christian tells another Christian “I do not repent and do not believe” and the one Christian says "your sins are retained. If one Christian can do it to another Christian then why is a priest needed to say “your sins are retained” Now is this just for Catholic Christians or for all Christians?
You did not say anything about excomunication from the Church in this post but you did in the one after this.

Excommunication would be a part of the office of the keys which deals with forgiving and retaining sin. In the example that I used, a Christian would not have the ability to remove that person from the Church officially, but he could, using Matthew 18 as a guideline, bring it to the ministers for further action up to and including excommunication. However, by that person not repenting of his or her sin and the other Christian stating that their sins are retained, that is true. It applies to all Christians.

 

[rev_kevin]

NO, it did not say so. The verse is quite obvious.

If Jesus gave the apostles ALL His authority, and one is to forgive sin, that He has, wouldn’t that make the apostles Jesus’/God’s equal since they have the same authority?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If Jesus gave the apostles ALL His authority, and one is to forgive sin, that He has, wouldn’t that make the apostles Jesus’/God’s equal since they have the same authority?

Say that Jesus gave ‘all His authority’ to the apostles. How is that different from a president giving ‘all his authority’ to a vice president when the president goes out of the country? The president still ‘has’ his authority (and can exercise it); the vice president has the authority if it is needed while the president cannot be in the country to ‘supply’ it. . .BUT the president is still the president and has MORE than his ‘authority’ to ‘be’ the president. The office is ‘more’ than simply the authority to preside over congress or sign a bill into law, yes?

Jesus is ‘more’ than His authority. He is omniscient, omnipotent,impeccable etc. None of those ‘characteristics’ are ‘totality’ in the authority, yes? Because the apostles have the authority (in matters of faith and morals) does it make them impeccable, omniscient, omnipotent? NO, it does not. How then can they be equal to God/Father/Son/Spirit simply because God ‘permits’ them to USE His authority which He has delegated to them the way the vice president is delegated from the president, or the regent of a country is delegated from the King or Queen?

 

[CMatt25]

Say that Jesus gave ‘all His authority’ to the apostles. How is that different from a president giving ‘all his authority’ to a vice president when the president goes out of the country? The president still ‘has’ his authority (and can exercise it); the vice president has the authority if it is needed while the president cannot be in the country to ‘supply’ it. . .BUT the president is still the president and has MORE than his ‘authority’ to ‘be’ the president. The office is ‘more’ than simply the authority to preside over congress or sign a bill into law, yes?

Jesus is ‘more’ than His authority. He is omniscient, omnipotent,impeccable etc. None of those ‘characteristics’ are ‘totality’ in the authority, yes? Because the apostles have the authority (in matters of faith and morals) does it make them impeccable, omniscient, omnipotent? NO, it does not. How then can they be equal to God/Father/Son/Spirit simply because God ‘permits’ them to USE His authority which He has delegated to them the way the vice president is delegated from the president, or the regent of a country is delegated from the King or Queen?

I’m not sure comparing Godly matters to secular is an exact parallel but I see the pt you’re trying to make.

 

[hosemonkey]

If Jesus gave the apostles ALL His authority, and one is to forgive sin, that He has, wouldn’t that make the apostles Jesus’/God’s equal since they have the same authority?

Of course not. The Apostles became Christ’s agents on earth, they did not become equal to Him, any more than the agent of a company becomes the CEO even when acting in the name of the CEO. The Holy Father is Christ’s vicar on earth, that is, “agent”. He does not become Christ, but acts in His name. Should be obvious to you as an “ex-Catholic.”

 

[rev_kevin]

Excommunication would be a part of the office of the keys which deals with forgiving and retaining sin. In the example that I used, a Christian would not have the ability to remove that person from the Church officially, but he could, using Matthew 18 as a guideline, bring it to the ministers for further action up to and including excommunication. However, by that person not repenting of his or her sin and the other Christian stating that their sins are retained, that is true. It applies to all Christians.

If that person says I don’t believe do you think they would be a Christian? Inorder to be a Christian don’t you have to believe? If they do not believe then they are not nor ever were a Christian to begin with. So why would they be a member of the Church if they don’t believe?
How can this apply to all Christians if we confess our sins directly to God and not a priest?

 

[TriuneUnity]

If Jesus gave the apostles ALL His authority, and one is to forgive sin, that He has, wouldn’t that make the apostles Jesus’/God’s equal since they have the same authority?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.”

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.’”

The authority of the Church is intimately bound up with Christ’s authority. As such, when the Church speaks, Christ speaks. It does not make it equal, because the Church’s authority is dependent, whereas God’s authority is independent.

 

[rev_kevin]

Of course not. The Apostles became Christ’s agents on earth, they did not become equal to Him, any more than the agent of a company becomes the CEO even when acting in the name of the CEO. The Holy Father is Christ’s vicar on earth, that is, “agent”. He does not become Christ, but acts in His name. Should be obvious to you as an “ex-Catholic.”

Then explain what is meant by ALL HIS AUTHORITY. It does not say I gave them the authority to be my agent it said I give them ALL authority. But did the CEO give his agent acting in his name ALL his authority.
Now lets not start getting ugly here. I have dealt with you before and you have said less then kind things so lets keep it civil.

 

[TriuneUnity]

If that person says I don’t believe do you think they would be a Christian? Inorder to be a Christian don’t you have to believe? If they do not believe then they are not nor ever were a Christian to begin with. So why would they be a member of the Church if they don’t believe?

Who said they were never a Christian to begin with? If a Christian falls into sin and departs from the faith, the Church has the authority to excommunicate them from the fellowship and they are reckoned an unbeliever as long as they do not repent of their sins. It doesn’t mean they were never a Christian. It means they no longer are.

The only alternative is to say that Christ’s statement is utterly meaningless and he just said it for the heck of it.

How can this apply to all Christians if we confess our sins directly to God and not a priest?

Maybe you don’t confess your sins to a priest, but if your church disciplines you for your behavior and you refuse to repent of it, the same applies. You don’t get to subjectively determine whether you’re in the church or not.

 

[rev_kevin]

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.”

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.’”

The authority of the Church is intimately bound up with Christ’s authority. As such, when the Church speaks, Christ speaks. It does not make it equal, because the Church’s authority is dependent, whereas God’s authority is independent.

Not talking about the church talking about the apostles, the people apostles, the human apostles.

 

[Reuben_J]

If Jesus gave the apostles ALL His authority, and one is to forgive sin, that He has, wouldn’t that make the apostles Jesus’/God’s equal since they have the same authority?

Wouldn’t it make them equal to Jesus to Baptized people in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

External sign of inward grace is something we can see and practice. Ultimately it is Jesus who Baptizes and forgives sin. Priests are just his apostles/disciples who administer this outward signs. That’s why we have the church and community of believers - to minister the way of God to the multitude of his people.

Why did Jesus spit on the mud and rub it on the eyes of the blind in order to heal him? He could have just said so. Jesus gave us a fore shadow on the administration of grace so that man could believe and for the glory of the Father.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Not talking about the church talking about the apostles, the people apostles, the human apostles.

The church is apostolic. With the exception of receiving direct revelation from God, the church, insofar as her doctrine is apostolic, acts with apostolic authority. When Jesus gives his promise to the church, it is for the church whole and entire throughout history until the Last Day.

 

[hosemonkey]

Then explain what is meant by ALL HIS AUTHORITY. It does not say I gave them the authority to be my agent it said I give them ALL authority. But did the CEO give his agent acting in his name ALL his authority.

Now lets not start getting ugly here. I have dealt with you before and you have said less then kind things so lets keep it civil.

Christ was quite clear in His conferral of Authority upon the Apostles and their clearly mandated ability to transmit that Authority to their successors, which the Church has been acting upon for two thousand years. That Apostolic Succession has been unbroken, except by the protestants who lost their Apostolic Succession by their rebellion. Christ has also NEVER contradicted Himself in the institution and maintenance of this Truth. As far as getting “ugly,” protestant “ex-Catholics” such as yourself, generally come on these fora with an agenda or a bone to pick. Sometimes it is nothing more than “trolling”, they fire off a few salvos and then run. If someone genuinely is seeking information about Catholic practice, I say welcome, but if you are here to attack my Church, I’ll be very pro-active in challenging you.

 

[rev_kevin]

Wouldn’t it make them equal to Jesus to Baptized people in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

External sign of inward grace is something we can see and practice. Ultimately it is Jesus who Baptizes and forgives sin. Priests are just his apostles/disciples who administer this outward. That’s why we have the church and community of believers - to minister the way of God to the masses.

Why did Jesus spit on the mud and rub it on the eyes of the blind in order to heal him? He could have just said so. Jesus gave us a fore shadow on the administration of grace so that man could believe and for the glory of the Father.

Make who equal? Who is them?
To minister is one thing but to say we have All His authority is something else. I minister to others but I don’t claim to have All His authority. I have the authority to baptize, marry, to preach his word, but to forgive sins, no I don’t. To me that is saying I’m Just like Jesus, I have the power to forgive sin. We all have the authority for forgive some who sinned against us personally, but not the authority to tell others that their sins are forgiven when they have not sinned against you personally.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Make who equal? Who is them?
To minister is one thing but to say we have All His authority is something else. I minister to others but I don’t claim to have All His authority. I have the authority to baptize, marry, to preach his word, but to forgive sins, no I don’t. To me that is saying I’m Just like Jesus, I have the power to forgive sin. We all have the authority for forgive some who sinned against us personally, but not the authority to tell others that their sins are forgiven when they have not sinned against you personally.

Then why did Jesus bother saying they had the authority to forgive sins? What does Jesus mean when he says to Peter that he has the authority to bind and loose, repeats it to the other disciples one chapter later, and says they have the authority to treat the unrepentant as tax collectors and sinners?

 

[Rascalking]

Christ was quite clear in His conferral of Authority upon the Apostles and their clearly mandated ability to transmit that Authority to their successors, which the Church has been acting upon for two thousand years. That Apostolic Succession has been unbroken, except by the protestants who lost their Apostolic Succession by their rebellion. Christ has also NEVER contradicted Himself in the institution and maintenance of this Truth. As far as getting “ugly,” protestant “ex-Catholics” such as yourself, generally come on these fora with an agenda or a bone to pick. Sometimes it is nothing more than “trolling”, they fire off a few salvos and then run. If someone genuinely is seeking information about Catholic practice, I say welcome, but if you are here to attack my Church, I’ll be very pro-active in challenging you.

Come on man-from one catholic to another, he’s engaging in a civil and decent debate. Leave him alone.

 

[guanophore]

What kind of sin would they retain? If you confess your sin and truly mean it then your sins will be forgiven. How would they know if you truly meant it or not? When I was Catholic and went to confession (which I did not like to do) the priest never retained any of my sins. Are there certain ones that they will retain if so why?

You make a good point. One of the reasons a sin is not forgiven is if a person does not “truly mean it”. It is called "a firm purpose of amendment’. If a person goes out and keeps committing the same sin over and over, and thinks they can come and pick up a “get out of hell free” card at confession, they are mistaken.

It is hard for persons who struggle with shame and guilt to appreciate confession. Although it is the most perfect form of healing for this condition, it is difficult to approach for many, Confession is most helpful also for people who need to hear with their human ears that they are forgiven by God. This applies to people who do struggle with the same sin, and are truly repentant, but keep falling back into it.

 

[TriuneUnity]

It is hard for persons who struggle with shame and guilt to appreciate confession. Although it is the most perfect form of healing for this condition, it is difficult to approach for many, Confession is most helpful also for people who need to hear with their human ears that they are forgiven by God. This applies to people who do struggle with the same sin, and are truly repentant, but keep falling back into it.

Very, very true. It is one thing to think to oneself that you are forgiven, and hoping that it is true. It is completely different to hear it from someone else. Faith comes by hearing.

 

[guanophore]

Doesn’t the bible say we all should confess our sins to eachother?

Yes. You can confess your sins to anyone you want, anytime you like. Catholics find it most expedient to confess them to the presbyters upon whom we call to be healed.