who can forgive sin

[guanophore]

Since the efficacy of Holy Absolution is tied in to the promise of the gospel, the Church retains the right to retain the sins of any who do not repent of their sins and believe the gospel. If I say to a Christian “I do not repent and do not believe” and that Christian says “your sins are retained,” it is an objectively true statement. That retention of sin is confirmed by heaven.

I agree that this is a true statement, but the instruction on retention is applied to post-baptismal sins, not to those who refuse the gospel.

If you say I do not repent and do not believe then you are the one retaining your own sin. It don’t take a priest to say your sin is retained, its pretty obvious that it is retained.

Yes, this is precisely why applying these instructions to preaching does not make any sense, Jesus taught that those who do not believe “are condemned already”.

 

[hosemonkey]

Come on man-from one catholic to another, he’s engaging in a civil and decent debate. Leave him alone.

You know what I mean. I’m just sayin’.

 

[Reuben_J]

Make who equal? Who is them?

You said, If Jesus gave the apostles ALL His authority, and one is to forgive sin, that He has, wouldn’t that make the apostles Jesus’/God’s equal since they have the same authority?

To minister is one thing but to say we have All His authority is something else. I minister to others but I don’t claim to have All His authority. I have the authority to baptize, marry, to preach his word, but to forgive sins, no I don’t. To me that is saying I’m Just like Jesus, I have the power to forgive sin. We all have the authority for forgive some who sinned against us personally, but not the authority to tell others that their sins are forgiven when they have not sinned against you personally.

Isn’t Sacrament about ministration?

Nobody is saying about claiming all authority; only what is given. A penitent will not be forgiven if he/she does not repent. So you see, a priest is merely acting for Jesus only when all the condituons are met.

 

[rev_kevin]

Christ was quite clear in His conferral of Authority upon the Apostles and their clearly mandated ability to transmit that Authority to their successors, which the Church has been acting upon for two thousand years. That Apostolic Succession has been unbroken, except by the protestants who lost their Apostolic Succession by their rebellion. Christ has also NEVER contradicted Himself in the institution and maintenance of this Truth. As far as getting “ugly,” protestant “ex-Catholics” such as yourself, generally come on these fora with an agenda or a bone to pick. Sometimes it is nothing more than “trolling”, they fire off a few salvos and then run. If someone genuinely is seeking information about Catholic practice, I say welcome, but if you are here to attack my Church, I’ll be very pro-active in challenging you.

May be I was a bit harsh but we have had our scuffles in the past. As you can see I am not one who cames her with any agenda but to have a debate or conversation on our faiths. Nor do I have a bone to pick. As you know from the past that I am not one who trolls, fire off salvos and then run. Believe me my wife gets on me all the time for being on here too much. I don’t attack the CC or I hope it don’t appear that I do. I have said many, many times that I have nothing against the CC. I just don’t believe some of their teachings that is why I enjoy a good debate, finding out why the CC believes the way they do and to give my beliefs. Once again I’m sorry if I was a bit harsh.

 

[hosemonkey]

Very, very true. It is one thing to think to oneself that you are forgiven, and hoping that it is true. It is completely different to hear it from someone else. Faith comes by hearing.

Exactly! While confession is healing and does result in a “feel-good”, there is a REAL power there, sins ARE forgiven and the priest has REAL Authority. While we can confess our sins to others and ask forgiveness of God with perfect contrition, the priest gives us the final, tangible seal of Christ’s forgiveness by virtue of his Holy office.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I agree that this is a true statement, but the instruction on retention is applied to post-baptismal sins, not to those who refuse the gospel.

Yes, I should have clarified. We’re speaking of situations within the Church.

 

[guanophore]

If Jesus gave the apostles ALL His authority, and one is to forgive sin, that He has, wouldn’t that make the apostles Jesus’/God’s equal since they have the same authority?

Yes, but He gave them authority in certain areas for specific purposes. He did not, for example, give them authority over the patterns of the stars and planets. He gave them authority on earth to forgive sins. It is complete authority, but it is limited.

 

[rev_kevin]

Yes. You can confess your sins to anyone you want, anytime you like. Catholics find it most expedient to confess them to the presbyters upon whom we call to be healed.

I quess what I don’t see is that confessing your sins to the presbyters is the most expedient way. I would think that the most expedient way would to go directly to God.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I quess what I don’t see is that confessing your sins to the presbyters is the most expedient way. I would think that the most expedient way would to go directly to God.

Expediency isn’t the issue. God works faith in the hearts of people through the means of grace and only through the means of grace. Holy Absolution is a means of grace. Prayer is not.

 

[rev_kevin]

Yes, but He gave them authority in certain areas for specific purposes. He did not, for example, give them authority over the patterns of the stars and planets. He gave them authority on earth to forgive sins. It is complete authority, but it is limited.

Ok so they are limited to only earthly matters. Ya know I really didn’t think they would have the ability over the stars and that. To be honest I never thought about that.

 

[LilyM]

If you say I do not repent and do not believe then you are the one retaining your own sin. It don’t take a priest to say your sin is retained, its pretty obvious that it is retained.

It wasn’t obvious to anyone that Annias and Sapphira were sinning - not in the slightest.

Yet the Holy Spirit disclosed the secrets of their souls to St Peter, who accused them of their sin and retained it against them.

Fact remains, in spite of Jesus granting the Apostles the fullness of authority, it’s bleeding obvious that, being mere creatures instead of the only-begotten Son of God, they aren’t and never will be His equal, no matter how much authority they have.

The Apostles didn’t create the world, they didn’t die and rise again from the dead to redeem us of our sins and conquer death for us and open the gates of heaven for us.

It is not Peter, Paul or James’ body and blood we receive in the Eucharist, or of which we are guilty if we receive it unworthily. Nor their deaths that we proclaim in receiving the Eucharist until they come again in glory.

And it is not in the priest’s own name or by his own authority that he forgives sins - rather he acts ‘through the ministry of the church’, essentially the ministry of Christ since the church is His own body, and forgives us ‘in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit’.

 

[Reuben_J]

rev, in Baptism all sins are forgiven. Do you get the implication? Why can’t a minister who peforms Baptism does Confession as well, since both functions are the same.

 

[guanophore]

I quess what I don’t see is that confessing your sins to the presbyters is the most expedient way. I would think that the most expedient way would to go directly to God.

This is because you imagine that there is a person “in between” the penitent and God. However, this is not the case. The priest is there in the person of Christ.

We are incarnated creatures, and God has seen fit to use incarnational methods to bring His grace to us. Confession of sins is healing because the person who keeps his sins secret in his heart becomes sick. This is why, in the book of James, calling for the presbyters to hear confession and pray is mentioned. Sin causes sickness and death. Life can be ministered through the mortal body by hearing confession, and pronouncing forgiveness. God set it up this way because He made us in physical bodies with eyes and mouths, and when these parts are employed we connect to grace.

Someone up the thread mentioned the mud on the blind man’s eyes. Why did Jesus do this? Why did He just not speak?

Was washing in the pool somehow “not going directly to God”?

 

[TriuneUnity]

It wasn’t obvious to anyone that Annias and Sapphira were sinning - not in the slightest.

Yet the Holy Spirit disclosed the secrets of their souls to St Peter, who accused them of their sin and retained it against them.

Fact remains, in spite of Jesus granting the Apostles the fullness of authority, it’s bleeding obvious that, being mere creatures instead of the only-begotten Son of God, they aren’t and never will be His equal, no matter how much authority they have.

The Apostles didn’t create the world, they didn’t die and rise again from the dead to redeem us of our sins and conquer death for us and open the gates of heaven for us.

It is not Peter, Paul or James’ body and blood we receive in the Eucharist, or of which we are guilty if we receive it unworthily. Nor their deaths that we proclaim in receiving the Eucharist until they come again in glory.

And it is not in the priest’s own name or by his own authority that he forgives sins - rather he acts ‘through the ministry of the church’, essentially the ministry of Christ since the church is His own body, and forgives us ‘in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit’.

LOL…and that’s that

 

[rev_kevin]

Expediency isn’t the issue. God works faith in the hearts of people through the means of grace and only through the means of grace. Holy Absolution is a means of grace. Prayer is not.

Yes I would happen to agree with you about God works in faith in the hearts of people through the means of Grace and only through Grace. Isn’t telling God directly and knowing he has forgiven you absolution enough. I don’t see why you would need someone to tell you that or give Holy Absolution when grace is a gift free gift from God. If you confess your sins to him and mean it, you and God are the only one’s who would know if you really mean it, then your sins are forgiven. Why do you need confirmation from someone about that. Yes prayer is not but I don’t pray to God to have my sins forgiven. I talk to him, tell him my sins and ask for his forgiveness. I don’t need someone to tell me my sins are forgiven when they really don’t know if they are.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Yes I would happen to agree with you about God works in faith in the hearts of people through the means of Grace and only through Grace. Isn’t telling God directly and knowing he has forgiven you absolution enough. I don’t see why you would need someone to tell you that or give Holy Absolution when grace is a gift free gift from God.

The issue isn’t whether it’s a free gift or not. The gift is free, but it is not free of created reality. Coming to God and asking forgiveness is fine, but it’s not a means of grace. My faith is not strengthened by asking God to forgive me in prayer. I receive no surety that my sins are forgiven by personal acts of piety. The means of grace are God coming to me through His word of forgiveness and His sacraments of forgiveness. It’s a one way street. I don’t even desire such forgiveness until the it is proclaimed to me by the Church, again through the means of grace. The means of grace are not private, subjective expressions of faith, they are concrete, incarnational realities whereby the dominion of Satan is crushed one stronghold at a time by the kingdom of God. He is wise enough to do it through water, bread, wine, and the spoken word.

 

[rev_kevin]

rev, in Baptism all sins are forgiven. Do you get the implication? Why can’t a minister who peforms Baptism does Confession as well, since both functions are the same.

Jesus died so our sins may be forgiven. When Jesus was baptized did he have sin, no there was no sin in him to be washed away or forgiven. So why was he baptized?
I can baptize because to us baptism is entering a new life with Christ. Before you are baptized you confess your sins to God. Now I can hear confessions all day long but that is all I can do. I nor does anyone have the power to forgive a sin that is not against you presonally.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Jesus died so our sins may be forgiven. When Jesus was baptized did he have sin, no there was no sin in him to be washed away or forgiven. So why was he baptized?

For us and for our salvation. In order to be identified with sinners, he needed to be visibly identified with sinners. His Baptism sanctifies our Baptism. Christian Baptism is not the ritual washing of John the Baptist.

I can baptize because to us baptism is entering a new life with Christ. Before you are baptized you confess your sins to God. Now I can hear confessions all day long but that is all I can do. I nor does anyone have the power to forgive a sin that is not against you presonally.

How do you know your sins are forgiven?

 

[rev_kevin]

The issue isn’t whether it’s a free gift or not. The gift is free, but it is not free of created reality. Coming to God and asking forgiveness is fine, but it’s not a means of grace. My faith is not strengthened by asking God to forgive me in prayer. I receive no surety that my sins are forgiven by personal acts of piety. The means of grace are God coming to me through His word of forgiveness and His sacraments of forgiveness. It’s a one way street. I don’t even desire such forgiveness until the it is proclaimed to me by the Church, again through the means of grace. The means of grace are not private, subjective expressions of faith, they are concrete, incarnational realities whereby the dominion of Satan is crushed one stronghold at a time by the kingdom of God. He is wise enough to do it through water, bread, wine, and the spoken word.

I don’t pray to God and ask him for forgiveness. I talk to him, tell him my sins and its up to him to forgive them. It has nothing to do with self piety. I don’t go and make a spectical of my self while I confess. I do that in privite. Its just me and God and nobody needs to know my sins except God. God’s grace has only one condition and that is to believe in him there is no grace through water, bread, wine. Grace comes from God alone and its through his grace that our sins are forgiven.

 

[Third_Day]

Doesn’t the bible say we all should confess our sins to each other?

No it doesn’t. Look at the context of John 5: 14
" Is any among you sick? Let him call for the presbyters of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the lord will raise him up and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for another, that you may be healed"

Notice that James does not say “confess your sins to God”.
Why doesn’t he say that?
It is the** presbyters that are called, it is the presbyters **that pray over the sick man, it is the presbyters that anoint the man with oil in the name of the Lord and if he has commited sins they are forgiven. By who? THe neighbor that just happened to be there?
The context shows that we are to confess our sins, not to God but to **the presbyter **who will forgive **with the aurthoity given by God **as we see in John 20.

Rev. Kevin, if one of the members of your congregation confess the sin of adultery to you can you say “I forgive you” and that sin is forgiven by God? Can you say “I do not forgive you” and that sin is denied by God.?
How can you say that James is saying we should confess our sins to our neighbor and that sin will either be forgiven or retained by that neighbor or that church member?