who can forgive sin

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=rev kevin;6576491]I noticed that this had to do with atonement I didn’t see where they confessed to a priest.
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Indeed!

And the New Testament Perfects, Imporves and Completes the Old Teatamant:thumbsup:
 
rev_kevin said:
So when does Jesus need help in forgiving sin from a priest. I was told that a priest can not forgive sin he is only acting as Jesus Christ or in persona Christi or as a agent. So if a priest is not there to help Christ to forgive sin then the sin is not forgiven?
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RK, did you bother to read the posts in the other thread about this matter? This has been addressed, it’s called a “perfect act of contrition”.
rev_kevin said:
Where does it say that you can only be reconciled to Christ if you are only Orthodox or Catholic?
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Again, did you actually read mark a’s post? :rolleyes:
rev_kevin said:
Here is the problem> I have been told that a priest can forgive sin (like you stated above), then I have been told that they can’t, then I have been told that Christ is the only one who can forgive sin, then I have been told that Christ forgives sin with the help of a priest.

All these different statements have come from Catholics. If the Catholics can’t come to the same conclusion about this, then I believe what I believe.
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What you have been told is the same information, all in a different way since you seem to have a hard time retaining information from the previous thread.

If you get the concept of “in persona Christi”, it will make sense. If you don’t get it, which I’m not sure of since you seem in one post to say you do and in another that you don’t…either way if you don’t get it, it will not make sense.
 
mark_a said:
I didn’t.

You’ve misread both of my posts you have responded to.

God must have a way to forgive people who don’t have access to the sacrament of reconcilliation in the Apostolic Churches.
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He does when you ask Him.
 
Originally Posted by rev kevin
Here is the problem> I have been told that a priest can forgive sin (like you stated above), then I have been told that they can’t, then I have been told that Christ is the only one who can forgive sin, then I have been told that Christ forgives sin with the help of a priest.
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All these different statements have come from Catholics. If the Catholics can’t come to the same conclusion about this, then I believe what I believe.
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As I indicatedin my last post, the Old testament leads to the New Testamant; where it is completed, fulifiled and perfected.

Example: manna, a miracoulous bread =OT

“I am the Bread of Life” completed, and Perfected = NT

**John 6: [55] **“For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. **[56] **He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.” And that is precisely and literally what takes place in Catholic Holy Communion.

In the OT remission of sins was much like in Protestant professions today; forgivens was only a expetiation based on HOPE. NOT A SURE THING!

The New Testament completes, and perfects:

Now based on **1 John 1: 8-10, 1 John 5:16-17, John 20:20-23, Matt. 16:19, and Matt. 18:18, Catholics **KNOW factually KNOW that there sins have been forgiven and remmitted. WHY: Because we do what God mandates.

It is God who actually forgives the sins, that the Priest ask God to forgive, in the name of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. So yes; accoring to John 20: BOTH God and the Priest have a necessary and active roll to fill.
 
rev_kevin said:
Here is the problem> I have been told that a priest can forgive sin (like you stated above), then I have been told that they can’t, then I have been told that Christ is the only one who can forgive sin, then I have been told that Christ forgives sin with the help of a priest.

All these different statements have come from Catholics. If the Catholics can’t come to the same conclusion about this, then I believe what I believe.
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From what I’ve read, Catholics (as well as TriuneUnity) have came to the same conclusion: God is Who Forgives. What is different is the emphasis on the priest, depending on the questions you’ve asked. Priest are working in persona Christi, as agents of Christ. Catholics don’t believe we are confessing to a priest but to God Himself working through the priest. What you, I and other sacramental Christians are in disagreement about how, not who.
 
rev_kevin said:
I did not say it was proof now did I?

Can you tell me, without looking them up, “all” the Sacraments?
What is a Sacrament?
How many are there?
Name them?
Whence have the Sacraments the power to give grace?
What grace do the Sacraments give?
Which are the Sacraments taht increase sanctifying grace in the soul?
Can you recieve the Sacraments more than once?
What is the Character which these Sacraments imprent in the soul?
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LOL! I am a Director of Catechesis for a parish with 6,000 registered families. I know for a fact the current pastor would have NOT hired me,if I did not know the 7 sacraments.

BTW: That is the first question one is asked during the hiring process: How many sacraments.

Healing: Reconciliation and anointing of the sick .

Vocation: Marriage and the priestood

Initiation: Baptism,Confirmation,Eucharist.
 
Pretty soon rev kevin will have to resort to “liar liar pants on fire.”
 
In one of his earlier posts Rev Kevin commented on how he used to be a Catholic and how he did not like going to confession.

Many(myself included) don’t like to go to confession. Like many don’t like to go to the doctor. Confession is worse than going to the doctor’(s office because the reason why we are going to the doctor may or may not be our fault. Whereas the reason we are going to the confessional booth is precisely our fault.

And this is where Jesus displays His genius. He could have just set it up to where we we just go into an empty room and confess our sins to Him. And that’s it. We walk away maybe feeling(and lest’s be totally honest here) OK in some instances, others maybe not so. We gain no knowledge or prayers or wisdom in avoiding that particular sin in the future.

Instead He set up the sacrament of confession. We have to go and confess our sins to someone else-a priest; which requires humility and a contrite heart. We actually have to hear the words come out of our mouth. The priest hears our confession and after receiving counselling and guidance in order to better avoid that particular sin in the future we hear the priest say the most beautiful words:
“I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

We are humans-both material and spiritual. We have to touch, taste, hear, see, and smell because that is how God made us. He knows what we need and He has accommidated our nature by giving us these sacraments in order to teach us and heal us.
 
choy said:
well, the Catholic Church teaches one thing. as much as we would like that everyone is well Catechized, that isn’t the case for one reason or another

can you say the same within your congregation? is everyone within your church believes the same thing? or are they free to think for themselves? if so, what then is your purpose if everyone is free to think for themselves?

in the Catholic Church, thats not the case, albeit some people think it is. if you grew up a Catholic then you would know about the Catechism of the Catholic Church. if not, then perhaps you see the problem i am pointing out now. again, there is one teaching in the Church, regardless of what people say or think. again, since we are on the topic of authority, there are those with the authority to make teachings in the Church, and make official interpretations of Scripture.

it has already been explained to you, the difference between power and authority.
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I pointed out the different answers I have got from Catholics here. Now instead of correcting them you play it off and say " As much as we would like that everyone is well Catechized, that isn’t the case for one reason or another." But when a Protestant says the same thing you lay into them about not knowing the CC teachings and so on, but say nothing to the Catholics about them not knowing the CC teachings.
Then you reverse it to the Protestants or me and ask me, "can you say the same with your congregation? Is everyone within your believes the same thing? Or are they free to think for themselves? By these questions you are trying to point to the falts of Protestants and neglecting the falts of your fellow Catholic.
Now I have said that I know about the Catechism of the CC but I disagree with some of them. And I know the differenc between power and authority. I just disagree with it.
.
 
rev_kevin said:
I pointed out the different answers I have got from Catholics here. Now instead of correcting them you play it off and say " As much as we would like that everyone is well Catechized, that isn’t the case for one reason or another." But when a Protestant says the same thing you lay into them about not knowing the CC teachings and so on, but say nothing to the Catholics about them not knowing the CC teachings.
Then you reverse it to the Protestants or me and ask me, "can you say the same with your congregation? Is everyone within your believes the same thing? Or are they free to think for themselves? By these questions you are trying to point to the falts of Protestants and neglecting the falts of your fellow Catholic.
Now I have said that I know about the Catechism of the CC but I disagree with some of them. And I know the differenc between power and authority. I just disagree with it.
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His response is perfectly reasonable. If all Catholics were perfectly knowlegible about their Faith, it is highly doubtful that any would defect to protestantism. If you had been very knowlegible about your Catholic faith, you would not have apostosised to the protestants, because you would have known that the Holy Catholic Church is the sole True Church in the world. But because people are ignorant regarding this fact, they fall into confusion and false religion.
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The_GreyPilgrim said:
In one of his earlier posts Rev Kevin commented on how he used to be a Catholic and how he did not like going to confession.

Many(myself included) don’t like to go to confession. Like many don’t like to go to the doctor. Confession is worse than going to the doctor’(s office because the reason why we are going to the doctor may or may not be our fault. Whereas the reason we are going to the confessional booth is precisely our fault.

And this is where Jesus displays His genius. He could have just set it up to where we we just go into an empty room and confess our sins to Him. And that’s it. We walk away maybe feeling(and lest’s be totally honest here) OK in some instances, others maybe not so. We gain no knowledge or prayers or wisdom in avoiding that particular sin in the future.

Instead He set up the sacrament of confession. We have to go and confess our sins to someone else-a priest; which requires humility and a contrite heart. We actually have to hear the words come out of our mouth. The priest hears our confession and after receiving counselling and guidance in order to better avoid that particular sin in the future we hear the priest say the most beautiful words:
“I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

We are humans-both material and spiritual. We have to touch, taste, hear, see, and smell because that is how God made us. He knows what we need and He has accommidated our nature by giving us these sacraments in order to teach us and heal us.
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What I didn’t like about going to confession was the fact that I’m telling someone who I don’t believe can do anything to forgive my sins. That its none of his business what sins I have committed, that is between me and God and I don’t need a middle man for that. I can go to God in humility and a contrite heart. I don’t need to show that to a priest or anyone else, I never recieved any counselling or guidance to do better from a priest. All I got was, "For your pennance you are to say 5 Our Fathers, and say the Rosary 3 times.
Then the “I absolve you of your sins,” I never believed he can absolve me of anything, only God can do that. I know its supost to be God saying that and a priest is a agent acting in God’s place but I have always found that hard to believe.
 
hosemonkey said:
His response is perfectly reasonable. If all Catholics were perfectly knowlegible about their Faith, it is highly doubtful that any would defect to protestantism. If you had been very knowlegible about your Catholic faith, you would not have apostosised to the protestants, because you would have known that the Holy Catholic Church is the sole True Church in the world. But because people are ignorant regarding this fact, they fall into confusion and false religion.
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What ever! Say nothing to the Catholics who are saying false things and start bashing the Protestants. Thats so like you. You also have just made my point. But I can say one thing about this statement and that is if they are not knowlegible about their faith then there seems to be a problem in what or how the CC is teaching.
 
rev_kevin said:
I pointed out the different answers I have got from Catholics here. Now instead of correcting them you play it off and say " As much as we would like that everyone is well Catechized, that isn’t the case for one reason or another." But when a Protestant says the same thing you lay into them about not knowing the CC teachings and so on, but say nothing to the Catholics about them not knowing the CC teachings.
Then you reverse it to the Protestants or me and ask me, "can you say the same with your congregation? Is everyone within your believes the same thing? Or are they free to think for themselves? By these questions you are trying to point to the faults of Protestants and neglecting the faults of your fellow Catholic.
I absolutely agree with you on this point. Most Catholics don’t know the teachings of the Church. That was told directly to us by our Director of Religious Education. Many Catholics as well as Protestants play theologian, not knowing what they’re really talking about. That take the position much like "my team verses their team… Texas A&M -vs-UT, go Long Horns. Oops. I’m glad to see people trying to defend their faith. We should. But we should also learn our faith.

BUT, there is objective truth. That is what the goal of discussion should be for us. We should be humble enough to admit we need to look something up and actually say “I had to look it up”. I can’t stand it when someone starts throwing bible quotes out like it’s hand grenades. That accomplishes apsolutely nothing except self-fullilling prophesy that one is a good bible scholar, which is actually far from the truth. We fool ourselves.

Now I have said that I know about the Catechism of the CC but I disagree with some of them. And I know the difference between power and authority. I just disagree with it.
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That is your free will at play and you have every right to reject God if you wish. Whether or not you truly understand seems unlikely because the things you say you don’t agree on I agree absolutely on after studying it for a long time as well. The answer I came up with through testing leaves me believing. I may not feel like I agree with some things. But not all things are necessary to believe. However, some things are mandatory to believe if one is to actually be Catholic. To depart from truth means one breaks with the faith, the truth. Example: A Catholic that doesn’t believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is in the wrong and is no longer in communion with the Church and thus a heretic if they willfully continue to defy that belief. The same is true for confession, and the other sacraments.

It doesn’t matter what people say on here. But what does really matter is that there is a truth that the Catholic Church holds to and unfortunately there are Protestants within our own ranks determined to make us more Protestant like. It’s another heresy.
Also keep in mind that sometimes people say things in the heat of battle or thinking they have it right but present it in less that perfect. We are humans with faults. But many of us do try.
 
dnu said:
Pretty soon rev kevin will have to resort to “liar liar pants on fire.”
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Na I don’t have to. This kind of talk don’t bother me. It only showes how one person will treat another person. It only shows how un-Christian like some can be.
 
Nicea325 said:
LOL! I am a Director of Catechesis for a parish with 6,000 registered families. I know for a fact the current pastor would have NOT hired me,if I did not know the 7 sacraments.

BTW: That is the first question one is asked during the hiring process: How many sacraments.

Healing: Reconciliation and anointing of the sick .

Vocation: Marriage and the priestood

Initiation: Baptism,Confirmation,Eucharist.
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Good then answer the rest of the questions.
 
I have gleaned others’ responses here and they draw on various details. I am a former DRE and oversaw religious ed from preschool through high school, but I am always learning my faith.

RevKevin, I think the issue for you is faith in the sacraments, as well as clergy, who are really the foundation of the sacraments as they are its ministers.

People have shared with you what confession is, where the priest ends and Christ begins, if you want to put it that way.

The issue is belief. Nobody’s explanation will do.
 
eucharisteo said:
That is your free will at play and you have every right to reject God if you wish. Whether or not you truly understand seems unlikely because the things you say you don’t agree on I agree absolutely on after studying it for a long time as well. The answer I came up with through testing leaves me believing. I may not feel like I agree with some things. But not all things are necessary to believe. However, some things are mandatory to believe if one is to actually be Catholic. To depart from truth means one breaks with the faith, the truth. Example: A Catholic that doesn’t believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is in the wrong and is no longer in communion with the Church and thus a heretic if they willfully continue to defy that belief. The same is true for confession, and the other sacraments.

It doesn’t matter what people say on here. But what does really matter is that there is a truth that the Catholic Church holds to and unfortunately there are Protestants within our own ranks determined to make us more Protestant like. It’s another heresy.
Also keep in mind that sometimes people say things in the heat of battle or thinking they have it right but present it in less that perfect. We are humans with faults. But many of us do try.
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Thank you for your understanding. Now when I am presented with something that is said here and I don’t understand it or I want to find out what it means, I look it up, try to see the other side of what ever it is and come to my conclusion on it. Almost everything I have been told her I have looked up. Some I agree with and others I don’t but I do look then up.
However, I have to disagree with you on the rejecting God part. I have embraced God more than I ever have in my whole life. God has done tramendous things in my life and I have to say that I feel closer to him now and its a feeling I never got as a Catholic. So God works in his own way. If I wasn’t feeling him as a Catholic then he pput me in a place where I do feel close to him and that is what God wants from us, to be close to him.
 
rev_kevin said:
What I didn’t like about going to confession was the fact that I’m telling someone who I don’t believe can do anything to forgive my sins. That its none of his business what sins I have committed, that is between me and God and I don’t need a middle man for that. I can go to God in humility and a contrite heart. I don’t need to show that to a priest or anyone else, I never recieved any counselling or guidance to do better from a priest. All I got was, "For your pennance you are to say 5 Our Fathers, and say the Rosary 3 times.
Then the “I absolve you of your sins,” I never believed he can absolve me of anything, only God can do that. I know its supost to be God saying that and a priest is a agent acting in God’s place but I have always found that hard to believe.
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One. When did God say that we can decide what we can believe and what we can’t? Or what is important to believe and what is not so much important? The Father sent Jesus with all authority in heaven and on earth and Jesus sent the apostles with the same authority(as the Father has sent me, so I send you). Religious truth is objective, not subjective. It doesn’t depend on how we feel or what we particuliary believe at one time or another. If God sets up one in His name to act as an instument of His forgiveness are we really at liberty to say “I don’t need that priest, I can go straight to God.”? If we can’t be faithfull with this small thing, can we really be trusted with that which is great(Matt 25).

The priest doesn’t forgive our sins. God forgives our sins through the instrument that is the priest. The priest is acting in the name of God(Matt 18:20).

Two, I hope I don’t need to explain the sacramental seal on confession to you if you are a former Catholic. The bible is clear that it is those whom God has appointed who either forgive or retain sins. And as James testifies that we are to confess our sins to each other(James 5:16) not just to God alone.

I have given confessions before where I give the priest no information other than I broke X commandment. Cut and dry. No context. And I received very much the same pennance that you probably did. You have already admitted that you hated confession, is it really a stretch to think that the priest picked up on this and just simply gave you what he knew wanted: to get out of there as quickly as possible?

As far as absolution I believe I answered that in the first response.
 
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