who can forgive sin

[rev_kevin]

I have gleaned others’ responses here and they draw on various details. I am a former DRE and oversaw religious ed from preschool through high school, but I am always learning my faith.

RevKevin, I think the issue for you is faith in the sacraments, as well as clergy, who are really the foundation of the sacraments as they are its ministers.

People have shared with you what confession is, where the priest ends and Christ begins, if you want to put it that way.

The issue is belief. Nobody’s explanation will do.

Yes and I understand where the CC is coming from about confession. Its just I don’t see the need to confess to anyone other than God himself. I believe in confession but not the way ya’ll do. I believe its an important part of being one with Christ, but not in the same way ya’ll do. I just don’t believe in everything ya’ll believe. It don’t mean I’m rejecting God like I have been told. I embrace God with all my heart and soul, I believe in being in unoin with God, just not in the same way ya’ll do. And I don’t believe that just because I don’t believe the way ya’ll do that I’m any less of a God loving, God fearing, God honoring person than the rest of ya’ll.

 

[eucharisteo]

Thank you for your understanding. Now when I am presented with something that is said here and I don’t understand it or I want to find out what it means, I look it up, try to see the other side of what ever it is and come to my conclusion on it. Almost everything I have been told her I have looked up. Some I agree with and others I don’t but I do look then up.
However, I have to disagree with you on the rejecting God part. I have embraced God more than I ever have in my whole life. God has done tramendous things in my life and I have to say that I feel closer to him now and its a feeling I never got as a Catholic. So God works in his own way. If I wasn’t feeling him as a Catholic then he pput me in a place where I do feel close to him and that is what God wants from us, to be close to him.

I understand the feeling as well. I think for me that once I realized the sacraments being valid and especially the Eucharist, the only meaning that makes sense to me, caused me to ask even deeper questions that ultimately led me not to deny the presbyters role. I believed in authority but only in the bible and the local bishop, meaning congregational ecclesial community. Long story short our elders were claiming the same authority as the Catholic bishops. Many Protestants ignore annointing with oil and many other scriptural examples that clearly mean the Catholic teaching. I find it only consistent with Catholic Teaching. it’s like someone turned on a light for me to see the beauty of the historical Church, not the one stripped down from its beauty.

In a sense, though you may believe you understood before, my belief is there is no way you could have because I believe you love Christ with all your heart. In my conscience, I see you as a sincere Baptist, even if you grew up Catholic. In your situation as an ordain minister, you have actually defected from the Church. And for us we must pray for you to return, but understand that you really may not have understood the faith, nor had good examples in your life to keep you in the Catholic faith. I know I didn’t have good examples. The more I dig up my history I find that it is a wonder I even believed in God with the examples in my life. I feel drawn to just pray for you, so I will continue to do this the rest of my life. I have added many to my prayer list since I’ve converted. I also understand the closeness believing bible Christians have with Jesus. St. Jerome said something like this “to not know scripture is to not know Christ”. I believe that is the real issue at hand. Catholics fail to study scripture the way I was taught in my Protestant faith, even though I started doing it as a Catholic. There were so many unanswerable questions until I converted back to being Catholic. Now its the poor example and the absolute mass confusion that bothers me most, not the truth.

 

[KathleenGee]

RevKevin,

I have always seen your sincere and deep faith in Christ. It hurts when we share and you do not understand.

Nevertheless, I believe if we were all in a room somewhere and disaster hit, I am sure you would be in the fore front to help everyone, and to lay down your life for us if it came to that.

 

[rev_kevin]

One. When did God say that we can decide what we can believe and what we can’t? Or what is important to believe and what is not so much important? The Father sent Jesus with all authority in heaven and on earth and Jesus sent the apostles with the same authority(as the Father has sent me, so I send you). Religious truth is objective, not subjective. It doesn’t depend on how we feel or what we particuliary believe at one time or another. If God sets up one in His name to act as an instument of His forgiveness are we really at liberty to say “I don’t need that priest, I can go straight to God.”? If we can’t be faithfull with this small thing, can we really be trusted with that which is great(Matt 25).

The priest doesn’t forgive our sins. God forgives our sins through the instrument that is the priest. The priest is acting in the name of God(Matt 18:20).

Two, I hope I don’t need to explain the sacramental seal on confession to you if you are a former Catholic. The bible is clear that it is those whom God has appointed who either forgie or retain sins and as James testifies that we are to confess our sins to each other(James 5:16).

I have given confessions before where I give the priest no information other than I broke X commandment. Cut and dry. No context. And I received very much the same pennance that you probably did. You have already admitted that you hated confession, is it really a stretch to think that the priest picked up on this and just simply gave you what he knew wanted: to get out of there as quickly as possible?

As far as absolution I believe I answered that in the first response.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut but I have heard all this before, over and over and over.
Are you sure its Matthew 18:20 because my bible says, “For where two or three gather because they are mine, I am there among them.” What does this have to do with a priest acting in the name of God?
James 5:16 he is talking about if you sinned against someone you are to ask for their forgiveness.

 

[Reuben_J]

Good then answer the rest of the questions.

Does someone else answer counts? For I have answered them in about two pages behind.

 

[KathleenGee]

I am thinking that RevKevin, even though you do not believe in confession, you have deep need to retain your connection with Catholics.

That profound need is evidence of the work of your Catholic baptism. Thank God for that if you will, for it.

 

[rev_kevin]

RevKevin,

I have always seen your sincere and deep faith in Christ. It hurts when we share and you do not understand.

Nevertheless, I believe if we were all in a room somewhere and disaster hit, I am sure you would be in the fore front to help everyone, and to lay down your life for us if it came to that.

Funny you should say that because that is exactily what I have done for 12 years of my life, risked my life for the sake of others. I was a firefighter and I would risk my life everyday to save someone, to protect their belongings. Seeing my childrens faces when they saw me live to go to a fire and realizing that that may be the last time I see them aand they me. Sorry for my little rambling on.

 

[Nicea325]

Good then answer the rest of the questions.

Sorry, don’t need answeer the rest or prove anything to you Kev,especially an ex-Catholic who is now a Baptist.

What can I possible gain or lose by going into a deep discussion over the sacraments? You kept on pushing the issue of infant baptism and I am not going to go down that road again. Just as you do not accept Catholic teachings, I do not accept the majority of novel teachings of Protestantism which is less than 500 years old. Sorry,not going to happen with me.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Catholic baptism is still there and it can’t be washed away.

Treasure it even if you don’t have faith at this time for the other sacraments.

And God bless you very much for all your heroic service. I see it in you!

Kathleen

 

[rev_kevin]

I understand the feeling as well. I think for me that once I realized the sacraments being valid and especially the Eucharist, the only meaning that makes sense to me, caused me to ask even deeper questions that ultimately led me not to deny the presbyters role. I believed in authority but only in the bible and the local bishop, meaning congregational ecclesial community. Long story short our elders were claiming the same authority as the Catholic bishops. Many Protestants ignore annointing with oil and many other scriptural examples that clearly mean the Catholic teaching. I find it only consistent with Catholic Teaching. it’s like someone turned on a light for me to see the beauty of the historical Church, not the one stripped down from its beauty.

In a sense, though you may believe you understood before, my belief is there is no way you could have because I believe you love Christ with all your heart. In my conscience, I see you as a sincere Baptist, even if you grew up Catholic. In your situation as an ordain minister, you have actually defected from the Church. And for us we must pray for you to return, but understand that you really may not have understood the faith, nor had good examples in your life to keep you in the Catholic faith. I know I didn’t have good examples. The more I dig up my history I find that it is a wonder I even believed in God with the examples in my life. I feel drawn to just pray for you, so I will continue to do this the rest of my life. I have added many to my prayer list since I’ve converted. I also understand the closeness believing bible Christians have with Jesus. St. Jerome said something like this “to not know scripture is to not know Christ”. I believe that is the real issue at hand. Catholics fail to study scripture the way I was taught in my Protestant faith, even though I started doing it as a Catholic. There were so many unanswerable questions until I converted back to being Catholic. Now its the poor example and the absolute mass confusion that bothers me most, not the truth.

If you feel drawn to pray for me then do so with all my blessings, but I also ask you to pray for those who do not know God or that totally have rejected him in their lives, not just because they are not Catholic but because they don’t believe he is real or exists or refuse to be a part of him.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut but I have heard all this before, over and over and over.
Are you sure its Matthew 18:20 because my bible says, “For where two or three gather because they are mine, I am there among them.” What does this have to do with a priest acting in the name of God?
James 5:16 he is talking about if you sinned against someone you are to ask for their forgiveness.

I will put it in context. And forgive me, I refer to the RSV translation:

Matt 18:[15] “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
[16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
[18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[19] Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
[20] For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Jesus is explaining to the disciples the authority of the Church when dealing with one who has been verified to be in sin. v.20 Says that where “two or more are gathered in my name, i am there in their midst.” In the confessional there are the confessor and the confessee. They are gathered together in the name of Christ. So when I confess my sins in that booth I am confessing my sins to the priest as the Church’s(the Body of Christ) representative and also to Christ(the head of the Church-His body).

James 5:[16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

My point was that your argument is that “I don’t have to confess my sins to any man, I can go straight to God.” And that the priest has no power to do anything. The bible seems to say otherwise. How do you explain this?

 

[rev_kevin]

Sorry, don’t need answeer the rest or prove anything to you Kev,especially an ex-Catholic who is now a Baptist.

What can I possible gain or lose by going into a deep discussion over the sacraments? You kept on pushing the issue of infant baptism and I am not going to go down that road again. Just as you do not accept Catholic teachings, I do not accept the majority of novel teachings of Protestantism which is less than 500 years old. Sorry,not going to happen with me.

Will sorry you feel that way. You don’t have to prove anything to me I’m alright with that. Now about your attitude about me being a x-Catholic, let me tell you that it has something to desire. I feel the hatred in you towards others who are not like you or don’t believe what you believe. Take a good look at yourself and ask yourself, is that how someone should be towards others. Ask yourself, would God be please with me for feeling and saying things like that towards someone. Ask yourself is that what Jesus taught me. Is that what Jesus did when they disagreed with him. Is that what Jesus said when dying on the cross. Did Jesus say to others I won’t talk to or answer you because you are a Gentile. Now you are not making the CC look good to Protestants or others by saying or having a attitude like that. Now I never asked you to accept the majority of novel teachings of Protestantism that has been around for less than 500 years. I haven’t forced you to get in any discussion with me you did that on your own and you are free to stop anytime you like. See it was all up to you to get into a discussion or not so don’t have a attitude about that with me, it your own falt, not mine.

 

[Reuben_J]

I pointed out the different answers I have got from Catholics here.

This is really funny and unreasonable. You got so many answers because Catholics are trying to make you understand the Sacrament of Penance. All their answers are correct – it depends on your questions. From what I read here some answers were just on the spot (like from LilyM or DanceLittleewok) and the others were answering the specifics.

Words like ‘in persona Christi’ or ‘agency’ should be sufficient explanation of the Sacrament. If you do not understand that then it’s difficult to explain any further other than going into the specific. Like priest does not forgive sin (per se) which is true. He does not forgive sin on his own or without the authority given to him or even if he does pronounce the absolution it may not apply if the penitent is not sincere. He forgives sin in the sense that the authority is given to him to do so and when all the requirement of the Sacrament is fulfilled.

 

[Reuben_J]

What I didn’t like about going to confession was the fact that I’m telling someone who I don’t believe can do anything to forgive my sins. That its none of his business what sins I have committed, that is between me and God and I don’t need a middle man for that. I can go to God in humility and a contrite heart. I don’t need to show that to a priest or anyone else, I never recieved any counselling or guidance to do better from a priest. All I got was, "For your pennance you are to say 5 Our Fathers, and say the Rosary 3 times.
Then the “I absolve you of your sins,” I never believed he can absolve me of anything, only God can do that. I know its supost to be God saying that and a priest is a agent acting in God’s place but I have always found that hard to believe.

It is. Like going and telling the priest that you are clean. Surely it was not the business of the priest to be told by the healed leper of his condition but Jesus asked him anyway.

But you are free to believe as you like only that it does not mean the Sacrament is wrong or unbiblical.

If you believe in Baptism, then forgiveness of sins in the Sacrament of Penance should make sense to you.

You don’t have to be counseled or guided for simple and routine sins; you know what to do; you are merely confessing the sins which you committed in moments of weaknesses. But if you confess habitual sin which you know should not be committed but are helpless and commit them nevertheless, a good priest may offer you advice and counsel; though that may not be necessary. You know what to do if you really are sincere not to do it again.

Ultimately it is all about believing. You do not and that can be to your disadvantage. The fact that confessing is not easy show that sins are serious transgression that separate us from God and that we have to be made right with Him. It will not just disappear because you thought it is between you and God when God has offered you priests as mechanism to go about it.

 

[choy]

I pointed out the different answers I have got from Catholics here. Now instead of correcting them you play it off and say " As much as we would like that everyone is well Catechized, that isn’t the case for one reason or another." But when a Protestant says the same thing you lay into them about not knowing the CC teachings and so on, but say nothing to the Catholics about them not knowing the CC teachings.
Then you reverse it to the Protestants or me and ask me, "can you say the same with your congregation? Is everyone within your believes the same thing? Or are they free to think for themselves? By these questions you are trying to point to the falts of Protestants and neglecting the falts of your fellow Catholic.
Now I have said that I know about the Catechism of the CC but I disagree with some of them. And I know the differenc between power and authority. I just disagree with it.
.

isn’t that what i’m doing here? when i correct your viewpoint from what i know, others can learn from it as well. i don’t have to address each and every person one by one with the same answer. thats why this is a forum, all answers are public

 

[rev_kevin]

I will put it in context. And forgive me, I refer to the RSV translation:

Matt 18:[15] “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
[16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
[18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[19] Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
[20] For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Jesus is explaining to the disciples the authority of the Church when dealing with one who has been verified to be in sin. v.20 Says that where “two or more are gathered in my name, i am there in their midst.” In the confessional there are the confessor and the confessee. They are gathered together in the name of Christ. So when I confess my sins in that booth I am confessing my sins to the priest as the Church’s(the Body of Christ) representative and also to Christ(the head of the Church-His body).

James 5:[16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

My point was that your argument is that “I don’t have to confess my sins to any man, I can go straight to God.” And that the priest has no power to do anything. The bible seems to say otherwise. How do you explain this?

I already have but I’ll explaine it again. If you sin against someone you go and ask them for forgiveness, Example: You have done something wrong (sinned) against a friend, and you go to that friend and tell (confess) him you have done something wrong (sinned) to him and “you” ask for “his” forgiveness. What have you done, “you” have confessed to someone a wrong that “you” have done to “them” and asked “them” for “their” forgiveness.
Its just you and him, no one else.

Now if your brother sins against you go and tell him his falt (you are telling him what he has done wrong) “between you and him” “alone” (Nobody else just the 2 of you)
But if he doesn’t listen to you (you have already tried the one on one thing first) then you are to take “witnesses” with you. (its just the 2 of you with witnesses)
Now if he doesn’t listen to them (but they did not speak they were only witnesses to confirm what you are saying) then tell it to the church (you are not confessing because you did nothing wrong) so if he don’t listen to the church then let him be a sinner. (You did all you could do but you have nothing to confess you did nothing wrong)
Now its up to you, If he listens to you and tells you that he is sorry then you can forgive him and he is forgiven, (God has also forgiven him, no confession to a priest needed) but if he don’t listen to you and don’t say he’s sorry you don’t have to forgive him (and if you don’t forgive him then God won’t forgive him, but no priest involved)
So if the 2 of you agree or ask God for forgiveness then you are forgiven in heaven because the 2 of you have come to God and asked for forgiveness in his name. If 2 or 3 are praying to God or gather in the name of God, no matter where it is, God is there with them.

.

 

[rev_kevin]

I will put it in context. And forgive me, I refer to the RSV translation:

Matt 18:[15] “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
[16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
[18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[19] Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
[20] For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Jesus is explaining to the disciples the authority of the Church when dealing with one who has been verified to be in sin. v.20 Says that where “two or more are gathered in my name, i am there in their midst.” In the confessional there are the confessor and the confessee. They are gathered together in the name of Christ. So when I confess my sins in that booth I am confessing my sins to the priest as the Church’s(the Body of Christ) representative and also to Christ(the head of the Church-His body).

James 5:[16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

My point was that your argument is that “I don’t have to confess my sins to any man, I can go straight to God.” And that the priest has no power to do anything. The bible seems to say otherwise. How do you explain this?

Jesus is explaining to the disciples part.
Yes there are the 2 of you in a confessional and yes God is present there. God is also present if 2 or 3 are gathered at a street corner in his name. Now if 2 of you are gathered in the name of Christ and you confess a sin to your friend are you confessing it to God because you 2 are gathered in his name and being that you confessed a sin to your friend wouldn’t that make your friend a represntative of Christ?

 

[choy]

Jesus is explaining to the disciples part.
Yes there are the 2 of you in a confessional and yes God is present there. God is also present if 2 or 3 are gathered at a street corner in his name. Now if 2 of you are gathered in the name of Christ and you confess a sin to your friend are you confessing it to God because you 2 are gathered in his name and being that you confessed a sin to your friend wouldn’t that make your friend a represntative of Christ?

no
the authority rests upon the Apostles and their successors

 

[rev_kevin]

I will put it in context. And forgive me, I refer to the RSV translation:

Matt 18:[15] “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
[16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
[18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[19] Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
[20] For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Jesus is explaining to the disciples the authority of the Church when dealing with one who has been verified to be in sin. v.20 Says that where “two or more are gathered in my name, i am there in their midst.” In the confessional there are the confessor and the confessee. They are gathered together in the name of Christ. So when I confess my sins in that booth I am confessing my sins to the priest as the Church’s(the Body of Christ) representative and also to Christ(the head of the Church-His body).

James 5:[16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

My point was that your argument is that “I don’t have to confess my sins to any man, I can go straight to God.” And that the priest has no power to do anything. The bible seems to say otherwise. How do you explain this?

Jesus is explaining to the disciples part.
Yes there are the 2 of you in a confessional and yes God is present there. God is also present if 2 or 3 are gathered at a street corner in his name. Now if 2 of you are gathered in the name of Christ and you confess a sin to your friend are you confessing it to God because you 2 are gathered in his name and being that you confessed a sin to your friend wouldn’t that make your friend a represntative of Christ?

James 5:16 If you sinned against someone tell (confess) him your sin and ask for his forgiveness. Pray for eachother so you might not sin again. If you are a rightous preson on who believe in God and tryes to do what is right your prayers have meaning to God.

When you confess to a preson you are asking for his/her forgiveness. If you have not done anyone wrong but have sinned then you can go to God and ask for his forgiveness.

 

[rev_kevin]

This is really funny and unreasonable. You got so many answers because Catholics are trying to make you understand the Sacrament of Penance. All their answers are correct – it depends on your questions. From what I read here some answers were just on the spot (like from LilyM or DanceLittleewok) and the others were answering the specifics.

Words like ‘in persona Christi’ or ‘agency’ should be sufficient explanation of the Sacrament. If you do not understand that then it’s difficult to explain any further other than going into the specific. Like priest does not forgive sin (per se) which is true. He does not forgive sin on his own or without the authority given to him or even if he does pronounce the absolution it may not apply if the penitent is not sincere. He forgives sin in the sense that the authority is given to him to do so and when all the requirement of the Sacrament is fulfilled.

Whats funny is I’m not the only one who sees what I saw.