who can forgive sin

[guanophore]

Jesus died so our sins may be forgiven. When Jesus was baptized did he have sin, no there was no sin in him to be washed away or forgiven. So why was he baptized?

To sanctify the baptismal waters, so that they would be able to wash away sins as they are joined by the HS, who gives the circumcision made without hands.

I can baptize because to us baptism is entering a new life with Christ. Before you are baptized you confess your sins to God. Now I can hear confessions all day long but that is all I can do. I nor does anyone have the power to forgive a sin that is not against you presonally.

No, you do not have the authority to remit the sins confessed because you are separated from the Apostolic Succession, through which that authority is passed.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t pray to God and ask him for forgiveness. I talk to him, tell him my sins and its up to him to forgive them. It has nothing to do with self piety. I don’t go and make a spectical of my self while I confess. I do that in privite. Its just me and God and nobody needs to know my sins except God.

On the contrary, rev, this is exactly an act of piety. Such a way of life is pious living. All the Holy men and women of God throughout history have engaged in this act of piety.

Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of Jehovah? And who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; Who hath not lifted up his soul unto falsehood, And hath not sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive a blessing from Jehovah, And righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Psa 24:6 This is the generation of them that seek after him, That seek thy face, even Jacob. Selah.

Coming to God with a heart of repentance is a practice of holiness (piety). When our faith meets with His grace at such a time, miracles happen in us. Such pious acts are how we cooperate with grace, and work out that salvation that is already at work within us.

God’s grace has only one condition and that is to believe in him there is no grace through water, bread, wine. Grace comes from God alone and its through his grace that our sins are forgiven.

No one is saying that grace “comes from” the physical elements through which He chooses to work it. It was His decision to use physical things such as water, bread, wine, and mud to convey His grace. When He put mud on the eyes of the blind man, did the mud, of itself, heal the man? I think we would both agree not. If the man had not obeyed, and gone to the pool to wash, would he have been healed? Why did Jesus choose to use material everyday objects when He was healing, like his spittle, mud, etc? his grace works through these material things, that is why Scripture says we are “saved through water”. It is not the water that saves, but His grace. The grace works thorugh the water.

1Pe 3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight** souls, were saved through water: **1Pe 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God,

Only the HS can wash our conscience to make it clean before God.

 

[guanophore]

The problem is you are seeing the means of grace as a barrier, instead of a vehicle. No one is denying that grace comes from God. That is an argument against a phantom position. Quite frankly, however, I can demonstrate from Scripture where God’s grace comes through water, bread, wine, and word, and you cannot demonstrate that God’s grace comes abstractly in an immediate way through some sort of personal meditation; because it doesn’t.

I can appreciate your position that God uses material means to transmit grace, but I dont’ agree that He does not do this without material. both things are true. Look at the revelation God gave to Peter when he was on the roof in prayer about the house of Cornelius! I think there are plenty of examples like this throughout scripture and in the history of the Church. God’s grace is not bound to the material. He chooses to incorporate the material into the transmission of grace.

btw, I have learned a lot reading your posts. I did not know that Lutherans were so “catholic” in regard to sacramental thinking.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I can appreciate your position that God uses material means to transmit grace, but I dont’ agree that He does not do this without material. both things are true. Look at the revelation God gave to Peter when he was on the roof in prayer about the house of Cornelius! I think there are plenty of examples like this throughout scripture and in the history of the Church. God’s grace is not bound to the material. He chooses to incorporate the material into the transmission of grace.

btw, I have learned a lot reading your posts. I did not know that Lutherans were so “catholic” in regard to sacramental thinking.

guanophore, I enjoy reading your posts, too, brother! You probably didn’t know Lutherans are that sacramental because not enough Lutherans are, because we’ve been so influenced by modern evangelicalism, which is openly gnostic in its view of faith and grace. I’ll get on a tangent if I go there, so I’ll disgress.

I agree that God is not bound by the material. I think the question there is what is the normative way that God operates in the post-apostolic era. God is not restricted by the sacraments and is free to work directly through His sovereign power. However, apart from a direct revelation from God, which I think both Catholics and Lutherans agree is something we really have no evidence of (we both believe public revelation has ceased), then we are to only look to those things that God has attached His word and promise to, which is the word and the sacraments, in order to find God’s grace.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Again, I call it semantics. Catholics believe immaculately conceived, Orthodox believe she remained sinless. Both believe in the real presence, but Orthodox reject the term ‘transubstanation’. When you go off into the Protestant Churches, you see the similarities become fewer and fewer.

The differences between the Catholic and Orthodox Church seem to rest in the ‘oral tradition’ and not so much in scriptures. The differences were not viewed as an example of incorrectness by many Protestants, but rejected for their own ‘new’ private interpretation.

If it were only two separate Churches, it would be too many. You can imagine how I view thousands of denominations.

I understand where you’re coming from, Prodigal. For the sake of discussion, assume that Protestantism is completely incorrect, private interpretation is wrong, etc. I’m not disputing any of those points with you.

My question here is directed specifically at the claim that infallibility solves the problems that are caused by individual interpretation of Scripture. Considering that that is the claim of the Roman communion, and the Orthodox communion, and both teach that they are the true church, and are infallible, and yet both maintain dogmas that are mutually exclusive, my question is still; how does a layman know which one is true? I agree there are similarities, but there are also major differences. So how does the layman know infallibly which communion is infallible? They both cannot be infallible.

 

[guanophore]

How did I sin against my fellow Christians and the Church?

we are members one of another. when one sins, all are affected by it.Paul gives an example of sex with a prostitute:

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 Or know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot is one body? for, The twain, saith he, shall become one flesh.

Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ. …1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffereth, all the members suffer with it; or one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

When one member of the Body sins, the whole body is weakened. Look at the example of the unfaithful priests who committed grievious sins against children. All Catholics bear the suffering of their sins because they have committed sin with their bodies, and joined us into sin because we are members one of another.

 

[eucharisteo]

we are members one of another. when one sins, all are affected by it.Paul gives an example of sex with a prostitute:

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 Or know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot is one body? for, The twain, saith he, shall become one flesh.

Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ. …1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffereth, all the members suffer with it; or one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

When one member of the Body sins, the whole body is weakened. Look at the example of the unfaithful priests who committed grievous sins against children. All Catholics bear the suffering of their sins because they have committed sin with their bodies, and joined us into sin because we are members one of another.

And this, Kevin, is why the Church is a hospital for sinners. My analogy is that the sacraments are like white blood cells that fight infections off. And when the white blood cells are not invoked [someone avoids the sacraments] the body is weakened and then we see toes, fingers, limbs falling off. Those limbs are manifested in the form of ecclesial communities like the Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopalian, “churches of Christ”, “Assemblies of God”, etc.

 

[guanophore]

We are not to confess our sins to one another. I don’t go and confess my sin to someone who I have not sinned against. If I sinned against someone then I confess my sin to them and ask them for forgiveness.

So, what do you think it means when it says “so confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed”?

Why do you think the early Christians understood it to mean confessing out loud to the presbyter?

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by rev kevin

I don’t think Jesus was just talking about the apostles/disciples that they were the only ones. I think Jesus said this for all of us.

If someone sins against you and that person comes to you and asks for your forgiveness, you have one of two posions. 1) to forgive them or 2) not to forgive them. If you forgive them and the confess the sin to God, God will forgive them of that sin, but if you don’t forgive them then when they confess the sin to God it will not be forgiven.

**You’re dialog about forgiving those who sin against us is about NOT SINNING; it has absolutely noting to do with how God chooses to actually forgive COMMITTED SINS!/I]

***The concept that God grants everyone the power to forgive sins is NOT biblically founded. It is frankly simply a way to dodge God’s truth. To assume God grants everyone this power is at best naive, and frankly completely disregards both God’s Divine nature, and the precise reason God gives to humanity ALONE, the SPIRITUAL GIFTS, of a mind, a intellect, a freewill to go with oir souls.

God from [at least] the time of Moses used Priest as intercessors for the forgiveness of sins. So like so many othr practices that are Perfected [Passover meal for example], God continues to mandate PRIEST be used as intercessors before He God, will forgive ones sins! After they have been Confessed to His Priest, an the Priest grants God permission to actually forgive ones sins. YES! That is precisely what God mandates, from His Priest. [John 20:19-23 is neither vague or misleading.

The New Testament by God’s Perfect Will; completes, makes whole, and perfects the Old Testament, in many ways’ and with many examples.****

**Matt.28: 16 “Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.” Mark.16: 14 **"Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and he upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. Luke.24 [9] and returning from the tomb they told all this to the eleven and to all the rest. LUKE 24:33 -45 "And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem; and they found the eleven gathered together and those who were with them, who said, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread. As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them. But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.” [44] Then he said to them, “These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, "

1Cor.15: [5] and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

Matt.10: 1 “And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.”** Matt.11:1 **And when Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in their cities." **Matt.20: 17 **And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them," Mark.3: 14 "And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach ",
**Mark.6: 7 **“And he called to him the twelve, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits.” **Mark.9: 35 **And he sat down and called the twelve; and he said to them, “If any one would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all.” **Mark.10: 32 **“And they were on the road, going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking ahead of them; and they were amazed, and those who followed were afraid. And taking the twelve again, he began to tell them what was to happen to him, " **Mark.11: 11 **And he entered Jerusalem, and went into the temple; and when he had looked round at everything, as it was already late, he went out to Bethany with the twelve.” Luke.6: 13 "And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; " Luke 9:12 "Now the day began to wear away; and the twelve came and said to him, “Send the crowd away, to go into the villages and country round about, to lodge and get provisions; for we are here in a lonely place.” **Luke.18: 31 **"And taking the twelve, he said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written of the Son of man by the prophets will be accomplished.” John 6: 67 Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?

Good ententions are NOT what God will Judge each of us on. But if you choose to remain heardheaded, and obstinate that is between you and God. Know that you will be judged on what God GIVES YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW, NOT SIMPLY WHAT WE CHOOSE TO ACCEPT.

**1Pet.1: 17 “And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile”. ****

 

[Catholicnow]

This has been hashed out many times here.
I don’t think Jesus was just talking about the apostles/disciples that they were the only ones. I think Jesus said this for all of us.

I take a different view. I believe Christ was only talking to the Apostles and just them, not some organization just them and for that time which ended with the death of the Apostles

 

[Nicea325]

Rev Kevin:

I hear what you are saying and I commend you on your strongness in your faith. Now if it wasn’t for Protestants I don’t think many would come to union with God. You may object to the “thousands” of Protestant churches and I have no porblem with that. Protestant church’s have brought millions to Christ who might not have come to him. We do love and honor Christ but in a different way then the CC does.

May you please explain how Protestants honor Christ in a different way?

You focuse on the death of Christ and we focuse on his life which both are very important.

Not true at all. I am really shocked as an ex-Catholic you would even say such a comment

We focuse on the good Christ has done and you focuse on tradition.

Sorry,but not true again.

IMO some Catholics are more worried about tradition,being the one true church, the chain of command from the apostles to the present that some times they loose sight of what it means to be a Christian.

Not much different than many Protestants.

**They worry so much about authority, who can do what and who can’t. They worry that there are “thousands” of Protestant church’s that they have only been around for 500 years that they loose sight of the other things Christ has taught us. **

No different than many Protestant churches who argue amongst themselves about certain teachings and divide over and over.

Christ has taught us so many things but the CC seems to focuse on tradition, being around for 2000 years, being the one true church, authority, and so on and it seems like they forget all the other things that Christ has taught us.

Again,for someone who says he is an ex-Catholic I cannot believe you have allowed yourself to be spoon fed those common Protestant beliefs about Catholicism.

**But you are different then us and we are different than you. **

And that is not what Christ intended or left.The ONE sheperd and ONE flock does come into play here. Likewise, I do recall St.Paul not being very fond of divisions as was the case in Corinth.

 

[guanophore]

Confessing to a priest you are confessing to God. Why not go directly to God instead of through a 3rd party.

We don’t see the priest as a “third party”. We see him as standing in the Person of Christ.

Can’t you ament the damage through God himself.

I believe that the HS guides every sincerely repentant individual to make amends and repair the damage of wrong deeds. However, human relationships are very much a part of God’s plan for mankind. Pastoral care means guiding the faithful in being good members of the flock of God. I do agree with you though that some priests give the same penance that does not seem very relevant to the needed repairs.

Since when did God ask for you to rectify anything to him. I have not read where God says I will forgive your sins only if you do this for me.

The forgiveness of God is a free gift, and cannot be “earned” or bartered. However we understand that if we are truly repentant, we will “bear fruit that befits repentance” and to “live a life worthy of the calling”. Pastoral guidance is helpful to people who may be having trouble making changes in behavior.

How do you know for sure that your sins are forgiven because a priest says so. They don’t know for sure if God forgave them or not.

Yes, we do, and they do. Jesus told them “whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, and whose sins you retain, they are retained”. We trust that He meant what He said, and also passages that have been cited here, where if we confess ours sins, he is faithful and just to forgive them. In James, it says “confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed.”. This means that the grace of healing is working through the confession.

 

[hosemonkey]

Rev Kevin:

I hear what you are saying and I commend you on your strongness in your faith. Now if it wasn’t for Protestants I don’t think many would come to union with God. You may object to the “thousands” of Protestant churches and I have no porblem with that. Protestant church’s have brought millions to Christ who might not have come to him. We do love and honor Christ but in a different way then the CC does.

IMHO, RevKevin and those like him are afflicted by what I call “The former girlfriend syndrome.” This says that very little good can be said of the former amour now that a new love has been found. The new love has so much more to offer(fellowship, welcoming, warmth, fewer rules, less restriction, the opportunity to play a larger role etc,etc.) The person is “born again” or “saved” and what was good about the old church is minimized or forgotten. How many times have you heard someone say, “I was Catholic until I was saved” or “since I was born again, I am not Catholic any longer.” “I used to be Catholic, but I’m a Christian now.” Were they so blind and ignorant before or was it just poor catechesis? Do they not realize that they are leaving True teaching and most importantly the Holy Eucharist, the very Body and Blood of our Lord, for confusion and chaos? Or is it just a "feel-good that they seek? Beats me. I came to this Church by a rough and rugged road and I cannot fathom why anyone would trade it for protestantism or any other.

 

[guanophore]

 This makes no sense to me at all. Lets say I want to go directly to John but I go to Roger first. Did I go directly to John or did I go to Roger first then go to John? Going directly means nothing in between, a straight line, you cannot go directly through someone to go directly to someone else.

That would depend upon whether John was not physically present, and sent Roger in his place. If he told Roger “he who hears you, hears me”, and “whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven”, then Roger would be acting in the person of John.

By confessing to God.

Then how do you dispense with the Scripture that directs us to confess to each other?

By asking them for forgiveness.

I think this is something we should all do. Have you ever considered the position in which people are left who cannot do this? Suppose they don’t want to forgive, or it creates more problems to ask? What about when the person is unavailable?

If you are truly sorry he will forgive. By having faith that God will forgive as he says. You don’t need a human to tell you something they don’t know for sure.

You are not making any sense, rev kev. You are saying we can know for sure because of His Word, yet for some reason you seem to think His Word in this matter does not apply to Catholics?

 

[guanophore]

I dont see that Grace is God coming through his servant absolving me of my sins. I don’t see that God’s grace has to come through his servant.

It is difficult to “see” things when you have already made up your mind they don’t exist.

No one here is clainming that God’s grace HAS to come through His servant. God is not bound by the sacrament. He has provided it for us as a gift. He can give His gifts however He likes. When we know where and how to access one of His gifts, it is in our best interest to go there and get it!

 

[guanophore]

There is only one mediator to God and that is Jesus.

I never said that it don’t apply to confession. I question the need for a priest.

Indeed, only Jesus can mediate our eternal relationship with God. That is why each person ordained as a priest is taken up into the priesthood of Christ. He felt it necessary to create the priesthood, and is Himself the high priest. There is no priesthood apart from Him.

 

[guanophore]

I understand that the priest is acting in place of Jesus. I just don’t see the need for him when confessing your sins.

Had you ever considered that God might know more about what you need than you do?

 

[guanophore]

I’m not going to get into it with you whether or not I have the authority to spread the word of God, to teach others about God and so forth. I don’t know where you are getting that we get our “authority” by simply reading the Bible and claiming it for ourselves.

Authority is always received from those who have it. Most people do exactly this - read in scripture, and claim for themselves.

 

[KathleenGee]

Authority…how many can apply for a job to become a public administrator…you have to be accepted by the people…you want to become rich and make alot of money, but businessmen who are successful, no matter how they say they work at it…have the innate ability to run a business and make money…it is a talent.

Christ gave Peter the authority to administrate His church in union with the other apostles…and this structure and relationship has been passed down generation from generation, and it is an administration not only of church governance but in the administration of the sacraments.

One must be set aside, chosen, consecrated to administrate the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and consecrated by Jesus to forgive sins…all this pertaining to our relationship between ourselves and God.

However, there is another context of forgiving one another’s sins in fellowship/fraternal relationship.

Apples and oranges again.

Fundamentalists will not acknowledge the need and duty of consecrated souls, nor have faith in the sacred sacraments who have been with us since the beginning of the Church.

You can’t find all the answers in Scriptures…you have to look at the Church itself from its beginning and how it progressed and developed from the day of Pentecost. So you have to always include excerpts from church history of how people worshipped and believed…without them you have disputes. You can’t look at Scripture without its people and their practices going way back.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

IMHO, RevKevin and those like him are afflicted by what I call “The former girlfriend syndrome.” This says that very little good can be said of the former amour now that a new love has been found. The new love has so much more to offer(fellowship, welcoming, warmth, fewer rules, less restriction, the opportunity to play a larger role etc,etc.) The person is “born again” or “saved” and what was good about the old church is minimized or forgotten. How many times have you heard someone say, “I was Catholic until I was saved” or “since I was born again, I am not Catholic any longer.” “I used to be Catholic, but I’m a Christian now.” Were they so blind and ignorant before or was it just poor catechesis? Do they not realize that they are leaving True teaching and most importantly the Holy Eucharist, the very Body and Blood of our Lord, for confusion and chaos? Or is it just a "feel-good that they seek? Beats me. I came to this Church by a rough and rugged road and I cannot fathom why anyone would trade it for protestantism or any other.

I can’t understand it either I think it’s the evangelical mind set that starting to creep into the church and also poor catechisis in the church.
I guess all we can do is pray the holy spirit will guide them and all non-catholics to the true church.

Matthew