Who can preach a homily?

[EasterJoy]

I think your pastor is a daring man and if he is doing it, knowing he is breaking certain rules of the canon law, his intentions must be good. I am sure he is convinced he does the right thing.

While I appreciate it whenever anyone attempts to give others good motives, I think that the axiom that those who are daring must also have good motives is, pardon me, just plain silly. Why would one ever assume that a daring man must have good intentions? Whoever said that being convinced that you are right has anything whatsoever to do with whether or not you are in fact doing the right thing? Subjective morality like that is a recipe for chaos, not peace nor justice.

There are lots of strict rules in the Catholic Church. If we want to do something in favor of ecumenism, go towards the unity of Christians, we will have to change or abolish some of them. I think such actions from below are very valuable.

There are approximately 2 billion Christians in the world, spread over an estimated 38,000 denominations. (That’s right, thirty-eight thousand.) Of these, about a billion, or roughly half, are Roman Catholic.
(source: christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm)

Tell me, then: by what evidence do you contend that abandoning obedience and abolishing rules creates unity?

 

[EasterJoy]

They ask why Vatican II’s introduction of ecumenism was a bad idea.

This is why.

Let me be as clear as possible here: The Catholic Church *does not compromise *when it comes to matters of faith and morals. These false ecumenical principles have done so much damage to the faith. When things like this can compromise, no one knows the truth anymore.

There is more than one way to grieve the Holy Spirit, though. It is not as if the goal of ecumenism were not intended to address a truly grave problem.

Do not forget that before ecumenism, there were rivers of blood spilled because people had a pretext to use denominational identity as an excuse for stirring up political enmity. Catholic and Protestant children beat each other up over denominational differences that neither one could have explained in terms that would hold water for five minutes…at least, no terms that would defend their mutual violence. Let’s not get started on the interdenominational “holy wars” that scandalized the unbelievers.

What ecumenism truly means can be taught, and learned. Appropriate boundaries can be drawn and enforced without violating charity. Besides, the open physical strife between churches and members of churches that we had could not continue to be tolerated. Being overly familiar is one hazard of allowing love to pass from one church to another, but it a hazard worth taking.

 

[Onegin]

There is more than one way to grieve the Holy Spirit, though. It is not as if the goal of ecumenism were not intended to address a truly grave problem.

Do not forget that before ecumenism, there were rivers of blood spilled because people had a pretext to use denominational identity as an excuse for stirring up political enmity. Catholic and Protestant children beat each other up over denominational differences that neither one could have explained in terms that would hold water for five minutes…at least, no terms that would defend their mutual violence. Let’s not get started on the interdenominational “holy wars” that scandalized the unbelievers.

What ecumenism truly means can be taught, and learned. Appropriate boundaries can be drawn and enforced without violating charity. Besides, the open physical strife between churches and members of churches that we had could not continue to be tolerated. Being overly familiar is one hazard of allowing love to pass from one church to another, but it a hazard worth taking.

I agree. But posts like the one that I quoted in addition to all that has happened in the past 40 or so years are evidence that very, very few people understand the true goal of ecumenism (to bring others to the Truth). It should only be used for that purpose and that purpose alone. Not because the Church somehow “owes” some historical or theological debt to other denominations or religions.

Unfortunately, what many Catholics understand this to mean today (a consequence of poor catechesis, probably) is that “there are truths in every religion or denomination, and as long as we understand each other’s truths, we’ve achieved the goal of ecumenism.” I submit that this view is not only dangerous to the faith but also not at all Catholic.

 

[Onegin]

Also, consider the OP’s situation with the Protestant minister being invited to preach at the homily. What do you think the purpose of that “ecumenical exercise” was? On it’s face, it would be hard to see how that was an effort to bring the Protestant minister to the true faith when, in fact, what she was doing was using the opportunity the Priest would normally have to teach the faithful to catechize Catholics about Protestantism (error).

 

[EasterJoy]

Also, consider the OP’s situation with the Protestant minister being invited to preach at the homily. What do you think the purpose of that “ecumenical exercise” was? On it’s face, it would be hard to see how that was an effort to bring the Protestant minister to the true faith when, in fact, what she was doing was using the opportunity the Priest would normally have to teach the faithful to catechize Catholics about Protestantism (error).

Yes. There is also the wide-spread issue that one cannot hold different views without being in emnity. You can say, “This is our opinion”, but it is considered offensive and uncharitable to say, “This is true. If you’re teaching something else, you may be well-meaning, but you are still wrong.” If you can’t back up your position with measurements from some scientific instrument or a Gallop poll, you are made out to be a self-important crank.

There is also a big issue with saying, “This position is reserved for a particular person. It doesn’t make them better than you, it is just that the position is theirs, and not yours. The position is given, not taken, the qualifications for it include things a person is born with, and no matter how virtuous you are in every other way, the position is not yours to choose.” We suppose ourselves to live in a meritocracy, and many can’t cope with the idea that while anyone can become President of the United States, the priesthood is a calling, and not an aspiration to be pursued. That is considered an injustice.

Yes. The penduluum needed to swing, but it has swung way too far in the other direction. I don’t think this is due to Vatican II. I think it is because the devil never rests in figuring out ways to pervert the truth. The Church can play into that or obstruct that, but there is no direction the Church can go to utterly escape that. We’re in the vale of tears, yet.

 

[Pawel_J]

Also, consider the OP’s situation with the Protestant minister being invited to preach at the homily. What do you think the purpose of that “ecumenical exercise” was? On it’s face, it would be hard to see how that was an effort to bring the Protestant minister to the true faith when, in fact, what she was doing was using the opportunity the Priest would normally have to teach the faithful to catechize Catholics about Protestantism (error).

So you think ecumenism is to bring someone to the true faith? Mistake! Ecumenism is to make it possible to understand our brothers in faith and focus on what we have in common, to remove obstacles in understanding and accepting one another. And sometimes removing obstacles to mutual understanding means changing some of our rules or attitudes.
Do you really think the Catholic faith is better than the Lutheran or Orthodox? I am Catholic, but I do not think so. All Christian faiths come from the same stem and should search for what they have in common in their roots of early Christianity.

 

[Onegin]

So you think ecumenism is to bring someone to the true faith? Mistake! Ecumenism is to make it possible to understand our brothers in faith and focus on what we have in common, to remove obstacles in understanding and accepting one another. And sometimes removing obstacles to mutual understanding means changing some of our rules or attitudes.

And what is the ultimate purpose of accepting one another? So we can feel good? The goal of any Catholic should be to get yourself and your family to heaven and take as many people with you as possible. The ecumenism that you speak of seems little more than a lukewarm exercise with no real end purpose.

Do you really think the Catholic faith is better than the Lutheran or Orthodox? I am Catholic, but I do not think so. All Christian faiths come from the same stem and should search for what they have in common in their roots of early Christianity.

That is the problem then. If you do not understand why it is that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of Truth while the other denominations and religions do not, then surely you cannot see why ecumenism is problematic.

Part of the beauty of the Catholic faith is the knowledge that Christ entrusted the Church with the deposit of faith and that she alone holds this in its entirety. To this end, the Catholic Church alone is the fullest expression of the Christian faith. This is something that many Catholics are ashamed to say today with all of the ecumenical thought going around, but there you have it.

The Orthodox and Lutheran Churches do not possess the fullness of the Truth as they have chosen to separate themselves from the Church and have rejected various doctrines of the Catholic faith.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Ministers of different Christian Communities may join in with Catholic Clergy during Ecumenical gatherings when specific permission has been granted by the local Bishop. Generally these gatherings are prayer gatherings for Christian unity, Catholic Mass is never celebrated at such gatherings.

THat must have been it.

 

[Lutheranteach]

And what is the ultimate purpose of accepting one another? So we can feel good? The goal of any Catholic should be to get yourself and your family to heaven and take as many people with you as possible. The ecumenism that you speak of seems little more than a lukewarm exercise with no real end purpose.

That is the problem then. If you do not understand why it is that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of Truth while the other denominations and religions do not, then surely you cannot see why ecumenism is problematic.

Part of the beauty of the Catholic faith is the knowledge that Christ entrusted the Church with the deposit of faith and that she alone holds this in its entirety. To this end, the Catholic Church alone is the fullest expression of the Christian faith. This is something that many Catholics are ashamed to say today with all of the ecumenical thought going around, but there you have it.

Ashamed? OR simply no longer believe it.

The Orthodox and Lutheran Churches do not possess the fullness of the Truth as they have chosen to separate themselves from the Church and have rejected various doctrines of the Catholic faith.

 

[Alan55]

He may not want to see this, but he should. . .and it should be sent (with explanation) to the bishop as well.

Right from the GIRM:

The Homily

1. The homily is part of the Liturgy and is strongly recommended,63 for it is necessary for the nurturing of the Christian life. It should be an exposition of some aspect of the readings from Sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass of the day and should take into account both the mystery being celebrated and the particular needs of the listeners.64
2. The Homily should ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to the deacon, but never to a lay person.65 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate.

Despite their ‘titles’, Protestant ministers are not priests or deacons. Thus, they are lay people. . .and equally thus, they cannot give a homily at a Catholic Mass.

I’m pretty sure that the priest is well aware of the rules and regs for preaching at mass. He is also aware that lay persons (including non-Catholic lay persons) can make remarks, even lengthy remarks, at a mass, although these remarks should not take the place of the homily. Visiting missionaries, for example, commonly give such remarks to raise awareness of (and funds for) missionary efforts.

I’m don’t think you should fire off letters to the bishop seeking to get this priest in trouble, assuming that your priest fails to understand the Church’s liturgical rules and needs to be educated by his far better informed parishioners.

 

[Brendan]

By no means, I am not agitating anybody to disobedience. I only think that true ecumenism requires compromise on all sides, including abolishment of regulations that hinder this process. This example shows I am not the only person, who thinks so.

Well, this is a rule that enhances true ecumenicalism, so it should remain then.

 

[Brendan]

So you think ecumenism is to bring someone to the true faith? Mistake! Ecumenism is to make it possible to understand our brothers in faith and focus on what we have in common, to remove obstacles in understanding and accepting one another. And sometimes removing obstacles to mutual understanding means changing some of our rules or attitudes.
Do you really think the Catholic faith is better than the Lutheran or Orthodox? I am Catholic, but I do not think so. All Christian faiths come from the same stem and should search for what they have in common in their roots of early Christianity.

Actually, yes, true eccumenicalism is to engage in a common discussion for the Truth. Since the Truth of God is most clearly expressed in the Catholic Church, that is the end goal of all eccumenical activites, to bring others to accept the truth of the Catholic Faith.

As yes, the Catholic Faith IS better that the Lutheran one. They reject certain books of the Bible and do not participate in the Sacraments, other than Baptism.

As far as the Orthodox, they are much closer, their Sacraments are true, but they lack the guidance of the Magisterium.

So yes, both Lutherans and Orthodoxy should be lead to the Catholic Faith, because each lacks something which Christ imparted to His Church. And how is it ‘eccumenical’ or even a loving act, to leave one’s brothers lacking when you have what they need.

 

[Pawel_J]

And what is the ultimate purpose of accepting one another? So we can feel good? The goal of any Catholic should be to get yourself and your family to heaven and take as many people with you as possible. The ecumenism that you speak of seems little more than a lukewarm exercise with no real end purpose.

Simply because there should be no divisions among Christians.

“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.” [1 Corinthians 1:10]

The only way to achieve this purpose is to put aside unimportant details that divide us and to concentrate on primary issues that are common to all Christians.

 

[Brendan]

Simply because there should be no divisions among Christians.
“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.” [1 Corinthians 1:10]

The only way to achieve this purpose is to put aside unimportant details that divide us and to concentrate on primary issues that are common to all Christians.

No, it means that we need to concentrate on what is True. For example, the Eucharist as the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.

That is something we cannot put aside. To do so would be to literally deny Christ. Which is hardly a thing a Christian can knowingly do.

There is also Christ placing the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven in the hands of Peter, and Peter’s role as the rock which is the foundation of the Church. Why should a Christian deny the very words of Christ in the name of a false unity?

These are not unimportant details, but key hallmarks of our Faith and exactly what Christ meant when were were to be of one mind and one judgement.

 

[Brendan]

Pawel,

You are a Catholic. Why do you desire to keep our protestant brothers ignorant of a gift as great as the Eucharist?

Is the very Body of Christ not something you wish all men to love, cherish and adore?

 

[EasterJoy]

So you think ecumenism is to bring someone to the true faith? Mistake! Ecumenism is to make it possible to understand our brothers in faith and focus on what we have in common, to remove obstacles in understanding and accepting one another. And sometimes removing obstacles to mutual understanding means changing some of our rules or attitudes.
Do you really think the Catholic faith is better than the Lutheran or Orthodox? I am Catholic, but I do not think so. All Christian faiths come from the same stem and should search for what they have in common in their roots of early Christianity.

Well, yes, of course I think that the Catholic Church is true in ways that the Lutherans aren’t. As for the Orthodox, they’re in schism, not in heresy. Still, they would say as much as we do that our rites are NOT interchangeable! In that case, it doesn’t have to do with being better!

Speaking of changing attitudes, where did *this *attitude come from: that if you are someone whose office it is to preach during Mass and I am someone who does not have that office, that this means you think you are better than me? This is what I was talking about. “Women need to be more fully recognized”…it is another way of saying “until women can hold such and so office, they are second-class citizens”.

It is the same attitude that leads to childless women feeling like second-class citizens on Mother’s Day because they don’t get cards or kids feeling like something is wrong when they go to a birthday party and there isn’t a present for them or everybody in Little League having to go home from Awards Night with a trophy recognizing their unique contribution. It is ridiculous, when you think about it. Equal in dignity does not mean being the same in everything not even in everything that we hold essential. We can have our rules, they can have theirs, and we can still talk.

Should Lutherans and Catholics and the Orthodox find a way to pray together? Of course we should! Ecumenism doesn’t say that Lutherans have the fullness of faith. It says that it is right to recognize that they have a valid baptism and they do have faith in the same Lord. But it does not go so far as to say that it doesn’t make any difference what denomination one belongs to. It only says that different denominations and even different religions,* in spite of our real differences*, also have truly real common ground, and that this common ground can be stood upon without the real differences being ignored, with results that are in keeping with the will of God. Although evangelism is an appropriate goal, those results do not have to be that every person becomes a Catholic. Something well short of that may still be a major victory in the eyes of God, and recognizable as a work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pawel_J]

Pawel,

You are a Catholic. Why do you desire to keep our protestant brothers ignorant of a gift as great as the Eucharist?

Yes, I am a Catholic, but in many items my views and beliefs are closer to the Protestant viewpoint.

Is the very Body of Christ not something you wish all men to love, cherish and adore?

I am sure the Protestants worship Jesus Christ in a right way. Maybe even their attitude towards Jesus is more appropriate than in the Catholic Church, where the cult of Mary and the Saints has become unproportional in view of what can be read in the Bible.

 

[LoyalViews]

You must make sure he does not go through with this … it is not allowed, as other posters have said. You should definately find a few other parishioners, and tell them why he can’t do this … then you and the group of parishioners go talk to the priest. Quote all the references!

God Bless!

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, I am a Catholic, but in many items my views and beliefs are closer to the Protestant viewpoint.

I am sure the Protestants worship Jesus Christ in a right way. Maybe even their attitude towards Jesus is more appropriate than in the Catholic Church, where the cult of Mary and the Saints has become unproportional in view of what can be read in the Bible.

Please read Lumen Gentium, would you?

 

[benedictgal]

I’m pretty sure that the priest is well aware of the rules and regs for preaching at mass. He is also aware that lay persons (including non-Catholic lay persons) can make remarks, even lengthy remarks, at a mass, although these remarks should not take the place of the homily. Visiting missionaries, for example, commonly give such remarks to raise awareness of (and funds for) missionary efforts.

I’m don’t think you should fire off letters to the bishop seeking to get this priest in trouble, assuming that your priest fails to understand the Church’s liturgical rules and needs to be educated by his far better informed parishioners.

But, the Mass is not the venue for this, especially since the speaker is a clergy member from a Protestant Ecclesial Community. You also forget that it is the right of the Church’s faithful to have a Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that is free of liturgical abuse. Silence when one knows better is not good. If I know that someone is doing something wrong, I cannot, in good conscience, remain silent.