Who Can Prune?

[CKNICKERBOCKER]

Todays reading is the about the vine and the branches. In the parable, it obvious that God is the vine and we are the branches. At mass today, we were told that the priests are the gardeners and they do the pruning…and it hurts-but it is how we grow spiritually. Being told this makes me a little…unsettled. Can anyone help?

 

[Claire_from_DE]

IMO Jesus is the vine. God also does the pruning. Sometimes he uses difficult circumstances or people to do this. Some of these people may be priests. There may be one or two of us who have encountered a difficult priest.

 

[brigid12]

It seems to me that in the US there are fairly few priests who do any pruning - which may explain, to some extent, why so many Catholics (as in many politicians, etc.) are “overgrown” and obedience seems to not be part of their vocabulary.

 

[Lancer]

John 15:1-8 (English Standard Version)

I Am the True Vine

1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

It is quite clear: Jesus is the Vine…we the branches…The Father is the Vinedresser (the pruner). The priest is acting “in persona Christi”…the person of Christ…not the Father (the vinedresser/the pruner). So if the priest is in persona Christi (in the person of Chris)t…he (the priest) is…should be the Vine…not the Vinedresser (pruner).

So read (Jn15:1-8) and see what the Vine (Jesus says of himself): …this is what the priest should fulfill in his priestly ministry…he is the source of our spiritual life, nourishment and growth…via the Liturgy, the Sacraments, the Teachings of Christ (actually this is the Bishops principal mission as one of the successors to the Twelve apostles, but he (Bishop) delegates his power to the parish priests to teach in his name)…in the Holy Scriptures and Sacred Tradition.

No where do I read or see…or ever had a priest say that he is the “gardener” or “pruner” – to imply that is his role…would make him “in persona Abba” (God the Father)"…that is not who or what the priest is…!

Said kindly…your priest has mistakenly become “a legend in his own mind/heart”…IF, he really believes what he told you about this scripture reading and his role as the vinedresser. To me, being the Vine “in persona Christi”…is quite a honor and quite a challenge for any human being…God bless your priest abundantly in faithfully fulfilling his roll as “the Vine” for his flock.

One last point: all of us, including the priest, can only come to the Father (in prayer or worship) directly without going through Jesus as our mediator to God (…We ask this…Grant this…We pray this…)…in one case…and one case only. Know when that is? It is when we pray the Our Father…which Jesus taught us and gave us his permission to pray directly to the Father without going through him. Everything else is always via Jesus by the power of his Holy Spirit…to reach the Father.

This is my take/understanding and I offer it simply…for your consideration.

Pax Christi

 

[CKNICKERBOCKER]

To Lancer-

Thank you for your insight. I understand much better, and your interpretation helped relieve a lot of anxiety about what I heard.

Peace of Christ,
CKnickerbocker

 

[Brendan]

It is quite clear: Jesus is the Vine…we the branches…The Father is the Vinedresser (the pruner). The priest is acting “in persona Christi”…the person of Christ…not the Father (the vinedresser/the pruner). So if the priest is in persona Christi (in the person of Chris)t…he (the priest) is…should be the Vine…not the Vinedresser (pruner).

Except that the priest also participates in the Fatherhood of God, that is why we call him “Father”

CKnickerbocker, what do you find unsettling about it?

The priest, , or even a parental Father, are supposed to enable and challege us to grow and to bear spiritual fruit. Some of that may be painful ( in the temporal sense) such as a parental Father teaching a child self mastery and self disciple by sending them to a time out when they had acted badly, or making them earn spending money via chores.

Each of those prepares a child to control their actions and master their wills to achive good and avoid evil. All of which is ‘pruning’

The priest, as spiritual Fathter, prunes by challenging us to follow the Gospel, even if it is against our personal wants and when it is counter cultural to do so. It might be as simple as regular fasting and time set aside for prayer. It might be changing bad habits or rejecting sinful practices or ill company.

Again that is pruning, as it bring about fruit in the Kingdom of God. It cuts away the ‘deadwood’ in our lives and allows us to grow in ways that are pleasing to Christ.

 

[CKNICKERBOCKER]

Brendan,

I think I felt unsettled about it because it felt like he was taking over God’s work in a way.
From my understanding, when God prunes we aren’t to be guarded or unsettled, we are to stay open to His will.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan,

I think I felt unsettled about it because it felt like he was taking over God’s work in a way.
From my understanding, when God prunes we aren’t to be guarded or unsettled, we are to stay open to His will.

When the priest, or even a parental father, is acting within the Will of God, they really are being God’s agents. That is why they are both called ‘Fathers’.

And yes, we need to stay open to His WiIl and not guarded, but that doesn’t mean that it won’t be an unsettling process

It has been said that Christ came to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, and He does both VERY well

 

[FrDavid96]

Todays reading is the about the vine and the branches. In the parable, it obvious that God is the vine and we are the branches. At mass today, we were told that the priests are the gardeners and they do the pruning…and it hurts-but it is how we grow spiritually. Being told this makes me a little…unsettled. Can anyone help?

Sometimes ideas or attitudes have to be pruned. To take an obvious example, sometimes people do have to be reminded that just because society takes for granted the legal status of abortions, doesn’t mean that the priest is relieved of his obligation to present the truth. Sometimes this offends people. A rare few might even leave the Church because the priest said what he did. It happens. Yet, there are times when a priest must make a stand and say “this idea has no place in the Catholic faith–whether you like it or not.” That doesn’t mean he should be less than pastoral or insensitive, but a priest who does no pruning at all, but simply accepts everything is neglecting his responsibilities–and will have to answer for it someday.

Keep in mind, it’s not about pruning people, but pruning the ideas/actions/attitudes/sins that people might want to maintain.

 

[CKNICKERBOCKER]

God gives us free will. If we say yes to doing the priests will, ie., subjecting ourselves to pruning, then aren’t we leaving ourselves open to the interpretation of others as to what God’s will is, and not following the Holy Spirit? I understand that if a priest is in Persona Christi, then God’s will and the priests will will not differ, because they are one. However, what if they do differ?

I guess that is where the cross is found. Jesus was doing God’s will and people didn’t believe Him, and He suffered and died for their lack of faith. No servant is greater than their master.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

God gives us free will. If we say yes to doing the priests will, ie., subjecting ourselves to pruning, then aren’t we leaving ourselves open to the interpretation of others as to what God’s will is, and not following the Holy Spirit? I understand that if a priest is in Persona Christi, then God’s will and the priests will will not differ, because they are one. However, what if they do differ?

When the priest is preaching and teaching what the church teaches, he is presenting God’s will to us. If your priest is telling you to do something that you think is actually contrary to God’s will, you should ask him for a further explanation of this and perhaps ask for a second opinion from another priest you know is solid in regards to doctrine and moral theology. An individual can be mistaken in discerning God’s will and it is useful to have the (name removed by moderator)ut of other knowledgeable people, especially priests and spiritual directors.

An example of this could be that a person feels called to take on some particular penance. The priest says not to do it. There is more value (more penance) in being obedient to the spiritual direction of the priest than in taking on the action the penitent is drawn to.

Contrarily, a priest might say you should enter a seminary. After considering the suggestion and praying, you still feel called to another vocation. This isn’t a matter of faith, morals, or spiritual direction so you are free to choose.

 

[VJCadarr]

IMO Jesus is the vine. God also does the pruning. Sometimes he uses difficult circumstances or people to do this. Some of these people may be priests.

This is the best answer!

We are all, by virtue of ouir baptism, called to be His disciples. To “disciple” means to discipline. We are also called to be discipled - to be disciplined! THIS is pruning!

 

[cknick]

Thanks…I’ll tink of that every time I’m pruning my grape vines