Who can reconcile this?

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dyspepsic said:
What does faith and morals have to do with the liturgy? Rubrics is not the subjecty matter of infallibility or of the ‘constant magisterium’,
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Liturgy has always been a matter of doctrine. Liturgy is Constant Magisterium. The Novus Ordo, when done correctly does not contradict Constant Magisterium or teaching. Thus it is valid and correct. I was responding to the op on this, that even if the TLM had been done away with and Pope Benedict XVI brought it back, it would not matter, because to get rid of it all together would contradict Tradition and thus be fallible.
 
holdencaulfield said:
I think it might be taken in notice, that Pope John Paul II never made the TLM illegal. Even if he did, it could not be Infallible because it contradicts previous Tradition (Constant Magisterium).
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holdencaulfield said:
Liturgy has always been a matter of doctrine. Liturgy is Constant Magisterium. The Novus Ordo, when done correctly does not contradict Constant Magisterium or teaching. Thus it is valid and correct. I was responding to the op on this, that even if the TLM had been done away with and Pope Benedict XVI brought it back, it would not matter, because to get rid of it all together would contradict Tradition and thus be fallible.
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I think you’re confusing infallibility with authority. The pope can mandate that a certain form of the mass be used or not used because he speaks with the authority of the Church. Infallibility doesn’t come into play here because the choice of which prayers are used in mass is not a matter of dogmatic teaching. The only way in which infallibility is involved is that it protects the Church from promulgating an invalid mass.
 
cam100 said:
I think you’re confusing infallibility with authority. The pope can mandate that a certain form of the mass be used or not used because he speaks with the authority of the Church. Infallibility doesn’t come into play here because the choice of which prayers are used in mass is not a matter of dogmatic teaching. The only way in which infallibility is involved is that it protects the Church from promulgating an invalid mass.
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Exactly. The disciplines required can change. Otherwise, the Pope would not have the authority to require special permission to ordain married men, since previous Popes did not require the same discipline in the past.

Besides, if the Church had no authority to allow changes, how could the TLM have evolved in the first place? The first Christians, even in Rome, used Greek as their liturgical language, not Latin. (Not that I imagine there were not ardent dessenters when the idea of a Latin Mass was first floated. There have always been and always will be traditionalists…I think that’s the reason we still say the Kyrie in Greek!)
 
cam100 said:
I think you’re confusing infallibility with authority. The pope can mandate that a certain form of the mass be used or not used because he speaks with the authority of the Church. Infallibility doesn’t come into play here because the choice of which prayers are used in mass is not a matter of dogmatic teaching. The only way in which infallibility is involved is that it protects the Church from promulgating an invalid mass.
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However the Liturgy is Tradition.
 
holdencaulfield said:
Liturgy has always been a matter of doctrine. Liturgy is Constant Magisterium. The Novus Ordo, when done correctly does not contradict Constant Magisterium or teaching. Thus it is valid and correct. I was responding to the op on this, that even if the TLM had been done away with and Pope Benedict XVI brought it back, it would not matter, because to get rid of it all together would contradict Tradition and thus be fallible.
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Getting rid of TLM would not contradict Tradition!

You don’t know what Tradition is.

Tradition is the Unwritten Word of God, handed down by Jesus Christ to the Apostles. It has equal footing with the Scriptures, which were written. The TLM was not given to us by Jesus Christ. Jesus didn’t speak Latin. It has nothing to do with Tradition.

What you mean to say, I assume, that removing the TLM would offend ‘tradition’ with a small ‘t’. Such ‘traditions’ have no theological weight. The Vicar of Christ on earth could remove it if he wished, with no theological implications.
 
ForeverAdam said:
You’re sounding more and more Orthodox, my brother. 🙂
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Perhaps I am, I am yet to be Confirmed in any Church. Yet I have decided I want to become an Eastern Catholic. I do appreciate Orthodoxy, however I still believe in the Papacy and the Infallibility of the Pope. I hope if I am wrong I will be forgiven.
 
holdencaulfield said:
Perhaps I am, I am yet to be Confirmed in any Church. Yet I have decided I want to become an Eastern Catholic. I do appreciate Orthodoxy, however I still believe in the Papacy and the Infallibility of the Pope. I hope if I am wrong I will be forgiven.
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I’d give the FSSP a chance first. I think you will find what you are looking for there.
 
holdencaulfield said:
Perhaps I am, I am yet to be Confirmed in any Church. Yet I have decided I want to become an Eastern Catholic. I do appreciate Orthodoxy, however I still believe in the Papacy and the Infallibility of the Pope. I hope if I am wrong I will be forgiven.
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That is your choice. But you have to become a Protestant, cause according to Canon Law you have to stay in the Latin rite.

You have to join the Orthodox. You don’t have to be forgiven if you don’t do this sin.
 
dyspepsic said:
That is your choice. But you have to become a Protestant, cause according to Canon Law you have to stay in the Latin rite.
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I have no idea what you are talking about. I’m not Catholic, I’m a Protestant converting to Catholicism. I’m not sure if you know however you can switch Rites in the Church. Eastern Catholics are just as much Catholics as Latin Catholics are.
 
holdencaulfield said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. I’m not Catholic, I’m a Protestant converting to Catholicism. I’m not sure if you know however you can switch Rites in the Church. Eastern Catholics are just as much Catholics as Latin Catholics are.
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Your personal profile says you are a “Roman Catholic”.

So what is it? Are you being contrary for a reason? Or, do you like gold lame, and incense?

We get people like you from time to time on the Forum. Nothing surprises me anymore.
 
dyspepsic said:
Your personal profile says you are a “Roman Catholic”.
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Well I put that on there awhile ago. That is what I consider myself as, assuming I become Eastern Catholic I will have to change it. Why the hostility? It seems as if you don’t understand that the Roman Catholic Church is made up of 22 churches that all form one Church.

So what is it? Are you being contrary for a reason? Or, do you like gold lame, and incense?

What?
 
holdencaulfield said:
Well I put that on there awhile ago. That is what I consider myself as, assuming I become Eastern Catholic I will have to change it. Why the hostility? It seems as if you don’t understand that the Roman Catholic Church is made up of 22 churches that all form one Church.

So what is it? Are you being contrary for a reason? Or, do you like gold lame, and incense?
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What?

The Eastern Orthodox Church is not one of the 22 churches - Eastern Orthodox is outside the Mystical Body of Christ.

What is the attraction of Orthodox?

And if you are going to tell us you are planning on joining a Uniate church, you cant. You are forbidden by Canon Law.
 
dyspepsic said:
The Eastern Orthodox Church is not one of the 22 churches - Eastern Orthodox is outside the Mystical Body of Christ.

What is the attraction of Orthodox?

And if you are going to tell us you are planning on joining a Uniate church, you cant. You are forbidden by Canon Law.
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I am talking about the Eastern Catholic Church, the Byzantine Catholic Church the Church that is one with the Holy Roman Catholic Church, in full Communion with the Pope, Benedict XVI

Byzantine Catholic Church in America
 
holdencaulfield said:
I am talking about the Eastern Catholic Church, the Byzantine Catholic Church the Church that is one with the Holy Roman Catholic Church, in full Communion with the Pope, Benedict XVI

Byzantine Catholic Church in America
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Canon Law forbids you joining that Church, unless you are 14 or under. They cannot accept you.

This is totally off-topic, and I am not interested in discussing such with you. End of story.
 
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