Who claims to be the Truth? (new thread)

[Kitty_Chan]

*the I Am Truth thread is spread into a interesting disscusion on truth of faith and salvation, So I have taken a few posts from there and restarted this one under a new name. Sorry for any confusion. *

I was thinking about truth. There has been discussions’ here regarding what is true and where/how to find out whats really true. How does one decide what is true.

I’m wondering, if there have been any religious leaders who have claimed what Jesus said, when He said I am the way, the Truth, and the life.

He didn’t say He knew the truth, or was searching for the truth. Jesus said He is the Truth. This means, He is inseparable from the Truth. All Truth is from Him, they are one and the same.

Who else can make this claim?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

uglygal

No-one. God alone is truth and can make this claim

 

[Kitty_Chan]

**Lion of Narnia ** ]from Aristotle (via Peter Kreeft)

“One speaks the truth when one says of what is that it is and what is not that it is not; one does not speak the truth when one says of what is that it is not and what is not that it is”

Now, apply this to what Jesus said about himself

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Originally posted by Pax;

I don’t know of anyone other than Jesus that referred to themselves as “the truth.” Likewise, no one else claimed to be God. Only Jesus made these claims. This is something unique among all of the great religions. Jesus is more than just a prophet.

The only thinker that comes to mind that said anything that begins to approach this **idea ** of truth was Plato. Plato talks about “the good” and he does refer to “the good” as “the truth” and “beauty.” When Plato is done discussing “the good” it becomes clear that the Idea of the Good is held to be the author of all things, that it is “beyond being” and is the last, greatest, and most difficult reality to behold. Plato is talking about God.

Scripture says some interesting things about truth and what is good.

Mark 10:17-18
And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, **“Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” **the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

John 14:16-18
And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. “I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you.”

John 17:17-19
Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

Plato did not know God as we do and Plato never met Jesus. Nevertheless, Plato was a great thinker and he was on to something in his musings about truth and the good.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

**Originally Posted by Lion of Narnia **
from Aristotle (via Peter Kreeft)

“One speaks the truth when one says of what is that it is and what is not that it is not; one does not speak the truth when one says of what is that it is not and what is not that it is”

Now, apply this to what Jesus said about himself

Posted by Kitty

Its a mouth full, ya have to actually say that out loud

I think Im getting what is that it is but little foggy on what is not that it is not.

more hints please

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Originally Posted by Pax
I don’t know of anyone other than Jesus that referred to themselves as “the truth.” Likewise, no one else claimed to be God. Only Jesus made these claims. This is something unique among all of the great religions. Jesus is more than just a prophet.

posted by Kitty

Thats what I thought, no other leader said these things.

Originally Posted by Pax

The only thinker that comes to mind that said anything that begins to approach this idea of truth was Plato. Plato talks about “the good” and he does refer to “the good” as “the truth” and “beauty.” When Plato is done discussing “the good” it becomes clear that the Idea of the Good is held to be the author of all things, that it is “beyond being” and is the last, greatest, and most difficult reality to behold. Plato is talking about God.

Plato did not know God as we do and Plato never met Jesus. Nevertheless, Plato was a great thinker and he was on to something in his musings about truth and the good.

posted by Kitty

Pax, et al

So if Christ and the Truth are inseparable then could it be said that Plato had a glimpse of Him?

And what about others? Throughout time there are those who didnt know God but have said truths, what about them?

Remembering there is no truth apart from Christ.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan
He is the Truth.

**
originally posted by paarsurrey**

Hi

May I ask you a little question, sir.

How do you know that Jesus said “He is the Truth”?

Do you mean Moses was not the Truth or truth was not with him or he was not from the Truth or he was not of the truth or he had no truth in him?

I think Moses was also truth.

Thanks

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan
I think Im getting what is that it is but little foggy on what is not that it is not.

more hints please

originally posted by Lion of Narnia

ok, so we have Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

As discussed before he did not say in in terms of “I speak the truth” but as utterly personal and particular in the same way he said:
“‘I and the Father are one’” (John 10:30).
and
"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58).

so,

“Aut deus aut homo malus” (Either God or a bad man) and “Non ergo homo malus, ergo deus” (If not a bad man, then God)

 

[Kitty_Chan]

originally posted by justinthemartyr

The statement speaks for itself.

I am the way, the truth and the life.

without Jesus there would be no way for us, no truth for us and no life for us.

He created everything and He was before there was

 

[Kitty_Chan]

originally posted by paarsurrey

Hi

May I ask you a little question, sir.

How do you know that Jesus said “He is the Truth”?

Do you mean Moses was not the Truth or truth was not with him or he was not from the Truth or he was not of the truth or he had no truth in him?

I think Moses was also truth.

Thanks

Hi Paar

Just to be clear I am a lady type, I thought the name would give it away. But maybe you are not familar with the little white cartoon cat from Japan with the bow? Hello Kitty. I picked her because she loves her family and friends and try to get along with everyone. Anyway, now you know.

Back to your question. Lion of Narnia also has answered it in post #8.

And to add Moses was not THE Truth. He **said **the Truth and Im sure the Truth **was with **Moses.

But Moses could not say** he **was the Truth. Only Jesus said He was the Truth.

Do you see the difference in what Im saying?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

well silly - probably, strubborn - definetely. quick on the keyboards, yep

if I missed anything from the other thread, sorry. The original thread is discussing truth as it applies to salvation, baptism, fullness in the catholic church for those interested.

 

[ryanoneil]

And to add Moses was not THE Truth. He **said **the Truth and Im sure the Truth **was with **Moses.

But Moses could not say** he **was the Truth. Only Jesus said He was the Truth.

Do you see the difference in what Im saying?

When Jesus is compairing Moses’ Torah and His Torah He says “It was said to them of old . . but “I” say to you . . .” No teacher of the law could legitimately say that, which is why the people were alarmed. He teaches not as the rabbis do, but as one who has “authority.” Their reaction is understandable. Jesus is making an open claim that he himself is on the same exalted level as the Lawgiver. (God) I believe this to be true.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[hamba2han]

John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.” (American Standard Version)

In this verse, Jesus (pbuh) promises that another “Comforter” will appear, and thus, we need to resolve some issues concerning this “Comforter”.

The Greek word paravklhtoß, ho parakletos, has been translated as ‘Comforter.’

Parakletos more precisely means ‘one who pleads another’s cause, an intercessor.’

1.  Jesus said the parakletos is a human being:

John 16:13 “He will speak.”

John 16:7 “…for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you.”

It is impossible that the Comforter be the “Holy Ghost” because the Holy Ghost was present long before Jesus and during his ministry.

John 16:13 Jesus referred to the paraclete as ‘he’ and not ‘it’ seven times, no other verse in the Bible contains seven masculine pronouns. Therefore, paraclete is a person, not a ghost.

1.  Jesus is called a parakletos:

“And if any man sin, we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” (1 John 2:1)

Here we see that parakletos is a physical and human intercessor.

1.  The Divinity of Jesus a later innovation

Jesus was not accepted as divine until the Council of Nicea, 325 CE, but everyone, except Jews, agree he was a prophet of God, as indicated by the Bible:

Matthew 21:11 “…This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.”

Luke 24:19 “…Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.”

1.  Jesus prayed to God for another parakletos:

John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another parakletos.”

And so, since Jesus (pbuh) was a bringer of the Truth, who then is this “another parakletos” i.e. another bringer of the Truth, that is going to come after him?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

When Jesus is compairing Moses’ Torah and His Torah He says “It was said to them of old . . but “I” say to you . . .” No teacher of the law could legitimately say that, which is why the people were alarmed. He teaches not as the rabbis do, but as one who has “authority.” Their reaction is understandable. Jesus is making an open claim that he himself is on the same exalted level as the Lawgiver. (God) I believe this to be true.

Peace,

Ryan

oh good point! these are the kinds of things I was looking for.

I didnt think of authority as meaning that.

 

[dessert]

*the I Am Truth thread is spread into a interesting disscusion on truth of faith and salvation, So I have taken a few posts from there and restarted this one under a new name. Sorry for any confusion. *

I was thinking about truth. There has been discussions’ here regarding what is true and where/how to find out whats really true. How does one decide what is true.

I’m wondering, if there have been any religious leaders who have claimed what Jesus said, when He said I am the way, the Truth, and the life.

He didn’t say He knew the truth, or was searching for the truth. Jesus said He is the Truth. This means, He is inseparable from the Truth. All Truth is from Him, they are one and the same.

Who else can make this claim?

Yes the Holy Spirit is a he, a person, did the apostles have the Holy Spirit within them or with them in the person of Jesus?
I think it wasn’t till later that the apostles had the truth within them.

Other leaders may claim but none were resurrected.

 

[ryanoneil]

oh good point! these are the kinds of things I was looking for.

I didnt think of authority as meaning that.

Here is another thing I’ve been trying to wrap my brain around. Jesus is the word of God. The Old Testament is the word of God. I’m not sure if it is accurate to say Jesus IS the OT but I feel confident saying He fulfills it. Jesus is THE prohetic interpreter of the Torah, the Law, and the Prophets.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Yes the Holy Spirit is a he, a person, did the apostles have the Holy Spirit within them or with them in the person of Jesus?
I think it wasn’t till later that the apostles had the truth within them.

Other leaders may claim but none were resurrected.

Yes at Pentacost was when the Holy Spirit came to the apostles. I couldnt figure out hambas post until I read yours. I had not thought of the Holy Spirit in this way.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Here is another thing I’ve been trying to wrap my brain around. Jesus is the word of God. The Old Testament is the word of God. I’m not sure if it is accurate to say Jesus IS the OT but I feel confident saying He fulfills it. Jesus is THE prohetic interpreter of the Torah, the Law, and the Prophets.

Peace,

Ryan

(Im quoting an author here, but only main points)

When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth John 16;13

Sanctify them through Thy truth, Thy word is truth John 17;17

Christ is the** personification **of the Word of God, the wisdom of God and the Truth of God. His own claim is conclusive, I am…the Truth John 14;6.

Truth is not truth because of age but because of accuracy, truth is always and altogether correct, consistant, and crystal clear. Truth has no retractions to make, no apologies to offer.
*
(its a series of 5 books called His Glorious Name, Names and Titles of Jesus Christ a-z by Charles Rolls. Its a bit older but really fasinating. He lists and explains all the titles of Jesus… Took 5 books, and probably didnt get them all * )

This is where I got my thread topic. and I think it ties in with what your saying here and before. I think youre on a roll. I will post next what this guy says about the Word as a name.

 

[MH84]

John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.” (American Standard Version)

Here is the verse in context:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,
17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

In this verse, Jesus (pbuh) promises that another “Comforter” will appear, and thus, we need to resolve some issues concerning this “Comforter”.

The Greek word paravklhtoß, ho parakletos, has been translated as ‘Comforter.’

Parakletos more precisely means ‘one who pleads another’s cause, an intercessor.’

1.  Jesus said the parakletos is a human being:

John 16:13 “He will speak.”

John 16:7 “…for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you.”

Jesus taught the disciples to pray by saying, our “Father” who art in heaven… God is spiritual (withour gender) and we still call Him 'He" as well.

It is impossible that the Comforter be the “Holy Ghost” because the Holy Ghost was present long before Jesus and during his ministry.

**The Holy Spirit was to be “given” to the Church, to lead the church into all truth.

Acts 2:
1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[MH84]

1.  The Divinity of Jesus a later innovation

Jesus was not accepted as divine until the Council of Nicea, 325 CE, but everyone, except Jews, agree he was a prophet of God, as indicated by the Bible:

Matthew 21:11 “…This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.”

**Hamba, you need to read in context:

Matthew 21: 9 And the crowds that went before him and that followed him shouted, "Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!"10 And when he entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, “Who is this?” 11 And the crowds said, “This is the prophet Jesus from Nazareth of Galilee.”

**

The crowds were calling Him a prophet firstly, because He was one in a sense, and secondly, they did not understand who Jesus was (like YOU).

Luke 24:19 “…Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.”

**It was only after the Spirit of truth entered the disciples in Acts 2, that they were lead into a more clearer understanfing of Jesus. These disciples were probably not close followers of Jesus, otherwise they would have known about the confession of Peter:

Matthew 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” **16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. **

**

If Jesus was merely a prophet, why would Jesus have responded to Peter in such a way? Wasnt it already obvious that Jesus was a prophet, a healer, sinless etc.? This truth that Jesus was the Son of God, can only be revealed by God.

1.  Jesus prayed to God for another parakletos:

John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another parakletos.”

And so, since Jesus (pbuh) was a bringer of the Truth, who then is this “another parakletos” i.e. another bringer of the Truth, that is going to come after him?

The Holy Spirit: see above and also read Act 2.

You know whats sad, you try you use the bible, the bible you think is corrupted, to try to assert that the “Comforter” is Mohammed. Read in context. For example in John, you just quoted this:

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever".

when the verse following says this:
Here is the verse in context:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,
17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

bible quotes: clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/index.htm