Who created God?

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I thought for a while about numbers, and I think this is exactly how we think. Given a large enough number, you might well die before you finish thinking about it.
But the problem is that now you’re really being an eliminativist about numbers. You’re saying that we don’t really think about large numbers, we just think of their component parts.
How do you conceptualize numbers? Do you say the number aloud? That is a sequence in time.
I granted above that sometimes it is a process to come to grasp a number, which may involve use imaginative or verbal stepping stones, but the grasping of the number itself is a non-imaginative thing or it would not be a grasping at all. For any sufficiently large number we simply cannot imagine it as distinct from a number of similar magnitude. Therefore it is not imagination by which we grasp large numbers, but a concept or thought.
Do you imagine the number made up of its digits? That is also a sequence in time (you might imagine scrolling through the number to consider each digit). If you just think “number” you’re not really thinking specifically of the number you’re just thinking of a vague unit. I personally can’t think of a sequence of non-repeating digits longer than about 15. Anything bigger than that I’d conceive as a string of units.
You are confusing imaginability with conceivability. I grant that our ability to imagine a number by some sort of pictoral representation quickly passes as numbers increase. But imaginability is not conceivability.
Do you image a grid of dots representing the number? Also something you’d have to build up. Try thinking about 1000 that way. You’ll be scrolling through it and imagining it being made up of smaller units (like 1x1 or 10x10 depending on your limit.) Try thinking of a million that way.
I have suggested above that a sign that we conceive a number is that we can pick out certain of its properties. I do not imagine large numbers. Indeed, I have a minimally imaginative mind.
Take some examples of thoughts, say me thinking about how I’m going to respond to you. It’s made up of slices. Thinking doesn’t even make sense outside of time. The thought slices could be:
Reasoning discursively is always a temporal process, by definition. You are confusing two colloquial senses of thinking, the first which means reasoning and the second which means grasping a concept or thought (i.e., understanding). The former is always a process, the latter would never seem to be.
Try thinking without language, say thinking in pictures. It’s much more difficult, and I bet you’ll be trying to use pictures to make up a language.
I’m honestly not a very pictorial thinker.

-Rob
 
Does anyone else find it even a little bit hilarious that so many millions of people believe that there is literally a bipedal, mostly hairless, African ape of the Homo genus overseeing everything in a Universe where we exist solely on a relatively miniscule spherical rock orbiting another relatively miniscule ball of hot gas, in an obsure region of an enormous galaxy amongst billions upon billions of other galaxies of varying size and mass, in a universe which may very well not be the only one of its kind?

It just comes across as being a little bit arrogant for us to propose so confidently that such a vast thing as this universe should have been created purely to cater for the first animals who managed to luck out by achieving a significant level of self-awareness such that they could examine things beyond this biosphere (although I would even raise my eyebrows at the assumption that we are the only self-aware organism on Earth. It seems pretty clear to anyone who studies some of the more intelligent mammals that the difference is alot more minimal than most of us would likely believe. Look up “the mirror test” as applied to chimpanzees, it is very interesting).

And what happens if or when we discover life on another planet? There is no reason why, given the correct set of circumstances, self-replicating molecules could not propogate in other places. In fact, given the shear magnitude of galaxies, it would appear to be an astronomically large statistical improbability that other life does not exist somewhere else. If we find this life, would we finally become somewhat more humble in our estimation of ourselves? Perhaps many would. Perhaps more would not. Maybe the aliens would think their version of God created the universe for them. That would be funny to watch.

Human: “God made the universe for us!”

Alien: “No! God made the universe for US!”

Or perhaps the idea of a creator is more of an ape-specific meme…

I still think the favouring of altruistic genes in our gene pool is one of the luckiest things to ever befall our species, as it allows for the capacity to provide us with more comfortable, less fearful lives. Once again, this is in no way a homo sapien-specific trait. Gosh, animals are so interesting to read about. Ideally, a tendency towards vegetarianism will more than likely prove an optimal strategy in time. We just largely aren’t aware of it yet.

I’m sure I had a significant point to make when I began typing this, but then I started thinking about different types of animals again and I lost focus. Life has so many interesting things to learn about.
 
Does anyone else find it even a little bit hilarious that so many millions of people believe that there is literally a bipedal, mostly hairless, African ape of the Homo genus overseeing everything in a Universe where we exist solely on a relatively miniscule spherical rock orbiting another relatively miniscule ball of hot gas, in an obsure region of an enormous galaxy amongst billions upon billions of other galaxies of varying size and mass, in a universe which may very well not be the only one of its kind?
It is a theological and philosophical problem that many people suppose God to be like a big invisible human being. Such anthropomorphizations are, ironically, the target both of sophisticated philosophers (i.e., St. Thomas Aquinas) and the crude ‘New Athiests.’ As to the ‘size’ question, I’ve seen atheists do both sides of the question. There really doesn’t seem to be any real reason to think that either a small or large universe counts for or against a God.
It just comes across as being a little bit arrogant for us to propose so confidently that such a vast thing as this universe should have been created purely to cater for the first animals who managed to luck out by achieving a significant level of self-awareness such that they could examine things beyond this biosphere (although I would even raise my eyebrows at the assumption that we are the only self-aware organism on Earth. It seems pretty clear to anyone who studies some of the more intelligent mammals that the difference is alot more minimal than most of us would likely believe. Look up “the mirror test” as applied to chimpanzees, it is very interesting).
“Self-aware” is only an important criterion to moderns who assume, after the Lockean tradition, that personhood is constituted by self-awareness and continuity of memory. However, the classical traditional leaves discursive reasoning as a mark of personhood. I really have no problem with lower animals being conscious and even self-aware (as chimps are, and I’m quite familiar with the experiments you are talking about… they are marvelous animals!).

I’m not sure what theists generally think about the purpose of the earth and the universe, but the assumption is not generally that it is just all for human beings. Indeed, I believe it is the epistle to the Ephesians that says, “through Him and for Him all things were made.” The final cause of creation is Jesus Christ, not the human race.
And what happens if or when we discover life on another planet? There is no reason why, given the correct set of circumstances, self-replicating molecules could not propogate in other places. In fact, given the shear magnitude of galaxies, it would appear to be an astronomically large statistical improbability that other life does not exist somewhere else. If we find this life, would we finally become somewhat more humble in our estimation of ourselves? Perhaps many would. Perhaps more would not. Maybe the aliens would think their version of God created the universe for them. That would be funny to watch.
I don’t think that this is a very important question. There is no reason on the Christian conception that there cannot be other rational animal life forms.
Human: “God made the universe for us!”
Alien: “No! God made the universe for US!”
These statements are not exclusive unless you think they mean “justfor us!” And I don’t believe that for a second.
I still think the favouring of altruistic genes in our gene pool is one of the luckiest things to ever befall our species, as it allows for the capacity to provide us with more comfortable, less fearful lives. Once again, this is in no way a homo sapien-specific trait. Gosh, animals are so interesting to read about. Ideally, a tendency towards vegetarianism will more thank likely prove optimal in time. We just largely aren’t aware of it yet.
Altruism is quite a good thing.
I’m sure I had a significant point to make when I began typing this, but then I started thinking about different types of animals again and I lost focus. Life has so many interesting things to learn about.
It does, God bless you.

-Rob
 
Haha, my apologies. If I had known I was going to receive such a thorough response perhaps I would have refrained from indulging that wandering line of thought I enjoy following now and again.
However, the classical traditional leaves discursive reasoning as a mark of personhood.
Just on this point, I would wonder as to whether even discursive reasoning could be counted as a human-specific characteristic. I think it would appear to make more sense to say that the difference between us and some of the other apes is a matter of degree, as opposed to there being an actual separation of human traits from non-human traits. It would seem that the apes possess some form of each of our higher mental functions, but that our version of this set of traits works a little more “efficiently” or to a “greater degree”, so to speak. Of course, by using words like “more efficiently” and “to a greater degree” I am imbuing these characteristics with my own personal preference, but I’m sure you understand what I mean.

A very interesting possibility that I have read about, which almost makes the spine tingle, is that perhaps some of these other apes have the capacity to experience some form of “spiritualism”. Albeit to a lesser degree, maybe. If you haven’t seen this particular clip before, I strongly recommend it:

youtube.com/watch?v=eubDSQrFako

Now, I’ll be the first to concede that this is by no means definitive evidence of prevalent spiritualism of some degree in Chimpanzees, but if nothing else it serves as an eye opener to the possibility! I don’t know about you personally, but I think alot of the more fundamental theists may not look too kindly on research of that nature.
 
But the problem is that now you’re really being an eliminativist about numbers. You’re saying that we don’t really think about large numbers, we just think of their component parts.
spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,414291,00.html

Check out that article, it’s about a tribe that doesn’t have words for numbers greater than five.
His findings have brought new life to a controversial theory by linguist Benjamin Whorf, who died in 1941. Under Whorf’s theory, people are only capable of constructing thoughts for which they possess actual words. In other words: Because they have no words for numbers, they can’t even begin to understand the concept of numbers and arithmetic.
But the Pirahãs proved to be completely different. Years ago, Everett attempted to teach them to learn to count. Over a period of eight months, he tried in vain to teach them the Portuguese numbers used by the Brazilians – um, dois, tres. “In the end, not a single person could count to ten,” the researcher says.
I can’t seem to find the link with the graph now, but human beings have a logarithmic rather than linear concept of numbers. We don’t accurately distinguish very large numbers from other very large numbers. scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-natural-log

And young children will draw a logarithmic curve of the values of smaller numbers as well, but as they formally study math it will become linear. (The evolutionary explanation is that it wasn’t important for us to count, just important to be able to say which is bigger. This leads to a logarithmic scale. The difference between 20 and 10 would be the same as the difference between 10 and 5 for example, because it’s both double and that’s how we evolved to think.)

Anyway, this is somewhat unrelated, but I thought worth mentioning.
I granted above that sometimes it is a process to come to grasp a number, which may involve use imaginative or verbal stepping stones, but the grasping of the number itself is a non-imaginative thing or it would not be a grasping at all. For any sufficiently large number we simply cannot imagine it as distinct from a number of similar magnitude. Therefore it is not imagination by which we grasp large numbers, but a concept or thought.
You are confusing imaginability with conceivability. I grant that our ability to imagine a number by some sort of pictoral representation quickly passes as numbers increase. But imaginability is not conceivability.
I’m not sure I understand the distinction you’re making. How do you conceive a number?
I actually enjoy thinking about numbers from time to time, I generally imagine them by patterns of dots. Maybe arranged in specific shapes (like triangle numbers, square numbers and so on).

You can definitely count to any arbitrary number even with a finite number of brain states, do you agree with that? And you could similarly imagine any number by building it up from smaller pieces however you imagine it/say it.I don’t think numbers are units.

Still, my position would be that we can think of a finite number of units because the brain has a finite number of states. Where a snapshot of the brain in time represents a unit.
Reasoning discursively is always a temporal process, by definition. You are confusing two colloquial senses of thinking, the first which means reasoning and the second which means grasping a concept or thought (i.e., understanding). The former is always a process, the latter would never seem to be.
Hmm. I don’t know. I think that when I’m grasping a concept or a thought, it is a sequential process for me. The only thing that seem to be non sequential are units, like thinking “tree” or “computer”. More sophisticated thoughts are always strings of units, interactions, descriptions. Hmm.

I would guess that even though something like “tree” seems like a unit though to me, it’s unlikely to be so on the brain level. There’s likely things happening “in time” (neurons firing and so on) as I think “tree”. So even units are fundamentally sequences would be my guess.
 
First, if we have no free will (which this guy seems to believe), how are we NOT like machines? And second, saying brain activity is “the physiological substance in which your personality and wishes and desires operate” is no less dualist-sounding than " brain activity is the physiological substance in which your *soul *operates."
The concept of a machine has a very specific meaning in our culture, which would be my guess why he said it. A machine for example generally cannot change its own components or learn new things, the brain is constantly changing itself and learning new things.

That’s not to say there aren’t machines like this at all, in the field of AI people do make programs that are capable of growing and learning independently or being taught by others. That is not the conventional concept of a machine however.

For your second point, I do think it’s less dualist sounding. In one instance, you say that the mind exists entirely within the natural world, and in another you posit a whole alternate and undetectable reality that actually accounts for the mind. I have a much easier time accepting that complex material processes can create a mind (especially since we have in animals and software countless examples of inferior minds that have some but not all elements that we have. Would you argue that a programmed AI or a squirrel is able to function because of a supernatural component, what about a great ape or dolphin?).
 
The obvious answer if someone or something created God He wouldn’t be God would He?
 
spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,414291,00.html

Check out that article, it’s about a tribe that doesn’t have words for numbers greater than five.
This is fascinating.
I can’t seem to find the link with the graph now, but human beings have a logarithmic rather than linear concept of numbers. We don’t accurately distinguish very large numbers from other very large numbers. scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-natural-log
This confirms my point. “Think” in its broad sense, i.e., the Cartesian sense, includes desiring, imagining, and so on. It is certainly true that when human beings imagine numbers that we don’t accurately distinguish. But as I argued above, we need to distinguish the imaginative faculty from the intellectual faculty, strictly speaking.
I’m not sure I understand the distinction you’re making. How do you conceive a number?
I actually enjoy thinking about numbers from time to time, I generally imagine them by patterns of dots. Maybe arranged in specific shapes (like triangle numbers, square numbers and so on).
I don’t know ‘how’ I conceive it, but even if I use, say, an image instrumentally, it doesn’t follow that all my conception of a number is, is the image I use.
You can definitely count to any arbitrary number even with a finite number of brain states, do you agree with that? And you could similarly imagine any number by building it up from smaller pieces however you imagine it/say it.I don’t think numbers are units.
I think that’s also in question. If I must first conceive a number to count it, then presumably, if the number of possible brain states is R, then I can count up to R, for instance, but not to the finite number R+1.
Still, my position would be that we can think of a finite number of units because the brain has a finite number of states. Where a snapshot of the brain in time represents a unit.
Which is to assume physicalism from the outset.
Hmm. I don’t know. I think that when I’m grasping a concept or a thought, it is a sequential process for me. The only thing that seem to be non sequential are units, like thinking “tree” or “computer”. More sophisticated thoughts are always strings of units, interactions, descriptions. Hmm.
I think that most of us engage in a process in order to find the number which we wish to conceive, and that is surely a ‘process,’ but I don’t think that the conceiving itself is a process.
I would guess that even though something like “tree” seems like a unit though to me, it’s unlikely to be so on the brain level. There’s likely things happening “in time” (neurons firing and so on) as I think “tree”. So even units are fundamentally sequences would be my guess.
The whole world is dissolving into processes. You are worse than Heraclitus. 😃
 
I don’t know ‘how’ I conceive it, but even if I use, say, an image instrumentally, it doesn’t follow that all my conception of a number is, is the image I use.
Well, what does it mean to conceive something? What does it mean to conceive a number? I’m having a hard time understanding the distinction you’re making, because I don’t think I personally experience it. I conceive numbers in the way I described earlier.
I think that’s also in question. If I must first conceive a number to count it, then presumably, if the number of possible brain states is R, then I can count up to R, for instance, but not to the finite number R+1.
Or you can use R and then think 1, which you also already did. I don’t know. I just don’t understand the distinction you make between conceiving a number, or saying the word for it, or imagining an array of dots or whatever.

Can you explain why imagining a number or thinking of a number and conceiving it are different things?
 
The concept of a machine has a very specific meaning in our culture, which would be my guess why he said it. A machine for example generally cannot change its own components or learn new things, the brain is constantly changing itself and learning new things.

That’s not to say there aren’t machines like this at all, in the field of AI people do make programs that are capable of growing and learning independently or being taught by others. That is not the conventional concept of a machine however.
I guess I automatically assumed both conceptions of machine. Maybe I watch too much sci fi.
For your second point, I do think it’s less dualist sounding. In one instance, you say that the mind exists entirely within the natural world, and in another you posit a whole alternate and undetectable reality that actually accounts for the mind.
You don’t need to posit some magical alternate reality to question whether there are aspects of mind that are currently unaccounted for by the physical processes we know of so far.

The author of the study you pointed to states that he does not believe in free will, which leads me to think he believes in the mind as epiphenomenon. If that is the case, though, what is the mechanism by which this epiphenomenon, which is not technically physical, causes reactions in the brain? And if he believes it can’t, then how does he explain the placebo effect? Or people who have, without drugs, remapped their brains and gotten rid of disorders like OCD by consciously changing their behaviors even as their brains were glitching ?

These seem like clear examples of , if not dualism, then places where it seems that there is a mind that is acting on the brain, since thoughts and beliefs are able to have physical consequences in the brain. If you say the conscious mind is just the brain acting on itself, it seems that there should be something to illustrate that.
I have a much easier time accepting that complex material processes can create a mind (especially since we have in animals and software countless examples of inferior minds that have some but not all elements that we have. Would you argue that a programmed AI or a squirrel is able to function because of a supernatural component, what about a great ape or dolphin?).
The software example is not as good as the animal mind one, in my opinion. Computers are programmed by people, they don’t do things that were not accounted for by their designers, not even the ones that “learn.” If there is a physical component to the soul, I would assume it would at least need a mechanism similar to a brain in order to come into existence.

And if there is a meat component to the mind, which you seem to believe, an AI would probably have to have some of those features to come to sentience the way we understand it. We are influenced by all sorts of emotional responses that I don’t see able to be duplicated without biological matter being involved.

I wouldn’t argue that AIs, squirrels, or any other being functions due to a supernatural component. Supernatural is a silly word. Minds and brains are obviously connected (though AIs currently don’t have brains unless you know something I don’t) , and questioning whether the mind can be in some ways independent of the brain does not lead automatically to the belief that it is supernatural .

I do tend toward the belief that if minds or souls are actual things and not just philosophical things, animals cannot be dismissed as lacking them out of hand.
 
Nobody and nothing created God. God, by definition, is uncreated. 🙂 He has existed since the “beginning” (actually eternity has no beginning or end) of eternity and will exist for all of eternity. 👍
 
You don’t need to posit some magical alternate reality to question whether there are aspects of mind that are currently unaccounted for by the physical processes we know of so far.
Unaccounted for the time being, or unaccountable in principle? The former does not posit a magical reality, the latter does. And the former is no kind of argument for a soul either, just a statement of our limited understanding of the universe.
The author of the study you pointed to states that he does not believe in free will, which leads me to think he believes in the mind as epiphenomenon. If that is the case, though, what is the mechanism by which this epiphenomenon, which is not technically physical, causes reactions in the brain? And if he believes it can’t, then how does he explain the placebo effect? Or people who have, without drugs, remapped their brains and gotten rid of disorders like OCD by consciously changing their behaviors even as their brains were glitching ?
While I don’t know what the author believes, I personally think that the brain process and me are one and the same. Say I had OCD and was consciously changing my behavior, that would mean brain processes would be changing, and my brain was being restructured. I hope that explains it. I am not a dualist, I think physical brain process = mind, and mind = physical brain process.
These seem like clear examples of , if not dualism, then places where it seems that there is a mind that is acting on the brain, since thoughts and beliefs are able to have physical consequences in the brain. If you say the conscious mind is just the brain acting on itself, it seems that there should be something to illustrate that.
I don’t think the mind acts on the brain, I think the mind is the brain. A thought would be a brain process, and so on.
The software example is not as good as the animal mind one, in my opinion. Computers are programmed by people, they don’t do things that were not accounted for by their designers, not even the ones that “learn.” If there is a physical component to the soul, I would assume it would at least need a mechanism similar to a brain in order to come into existence.
I was thinking more of neural networks rather than conventional software. Neural networks are designed specifically to emulate brains down to the neuronal structure. Neural networks can learn about the world on their own, and in the process of learning connections between artificial neurons are strengthened/weakned and so on. This has applications in robotics.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network

The point I wanted to make, is that I believe the continuum of mind sophistication found in nature to me is strong evidence of physicalism. If you will, it is a history for how nature built the machines that are our brains. And while our brains may be amazing and mysterious, and apparently make many wonder about souls, I doubt most would say that about bugs or frogs or fish etc.
 
Well, here is one report of a study wired.com/science/discove…/mind_decision that has the brain make decisions before you are consciously aware of them. If you’re really interested in neuroscience there’s plenty of material available online.
How exactly does that prove the brain** makes ** decisions? Are you a machine that waits for decisions to be made for you?:rolleyes:
You’d be hardpressed to find a professional neuroscientist who would claim that the supernatural is required to explain the mind. I enjoy reading about neuroscience and have read quite a few articles in journals/listened to lectures and I’ve never encountered the point of view that there must be something supernatural to make our minds.
What do you expect in neuroscientists’ circles? Do you think they are qualified to interpret the whole of reality? Ever heard of Sir John Eccles?
How do you control your brain?
I think I am my brain and the processes in it.

If you are your brain you don’t exist! “You” are just a fantasy because the brain is a lump of tissue which has no right to life or any other right. If there is no self there is no such thing as self-control. Everything your brain does is caused by physical events which do not know what they are doing. All its thoughts and feelings are meaningless and purposeless…
Yes, “truth” is an idea in our brains, which is generated by the processes in our brains.
How can an intangible idea be in our brains? Idea=electrical impulses!
Without them, the concept would not exist.
Concept=electrical impulses!
If all conscious entities who think about truth die, the concept would cease to exist.
Conscious=electrical impulses!

According to the materialist only purposeless, valueless matter exists. Purpose=electrical impulses! Value=electrical impulses! Your beliefs=electrical impulses!
 
The former does not posit a magical reality, the latter does.
The materialist posits the **magical power **of inanimate matter to produce order, organization, life, the DNA code, persons, consciousness, reasoning, free will, purposeful activity and love!
 
I have often thought about the phrase “We are **in **this world, not of this world.”. I believe that it refers to our “soul”. And I think that our “soul” is that which separates us from all other living creatures.

So sorry, but I need to go get ready for Mass. I will check-in later and try to formulate my thoughts.

God bless you, All.
 
Well, what does it mean to conceive something? What does it mean to conceive a number? I’m having a hard time understanding the distinction you’re making, because I don’t think I personally experience it. I conceive numbers in the way I described earlier…Can you explain why imagining a number or thinking of a number and conceiving it are different things?
Suppose that conceiving a number is simply imagining a number.

Now let yourself conceive (i.e., imagine) of a number of an arbitrarily large size (e.g., 1,365,876,098,476). Now conceive (i.e., imagine) n +1.

Since it is beyond the capacity of imagination to grasp n and n +1-- because they are arbitrarily large, it is impossible that the human imagination can adequately deal with them by means of pictures-- we should conclude that, contrary to hypothesis that you do not actually conceive of n and n +1, or that conception is not simply a work of the faculty of imagination. For by imagination you cannot distinguish n and n+1-- they’re both just really big numbers-- so it can’t be by imagination that you distinguish the two of them. Hence, conception is not simply imagination, contrary to hypothesis.

-Rob
 
How exactly does that prove the brain** makes ** decisions? Are you a machine that waits for decisions to be made for you?:rolleyes:
If by observing your brain scientists can tell what you will choose before you consciously make the choice, I think it casts a dark shadow on the concept of contra-causal free will.
What do you expect in neuroscientists’ circles? Do you think they are qualified to interpret the whole of reality? Ever heard of Sir John Eccles?
I would think neuroscientists would be the most qualified to judge whether something more than the brain is needed to explain consciousness. They are the ones who study the brain, and link the different parts/actions of the brain to different functions.

What about Sir John Eccles?
If you are your brain you don’t exist! “You” are just a fantasy because the brain is a lump of tissue which has no right to life or any other right. If there is no self there is no such thing as self-control. Everything your brain does is caused by physical events which do not know what they are doing. All its thoughts and feelings are meaningless and purposeless…
That’s one way to look at it, another would be to reframe your concept of matter to include that complex systems/processes within systems give rise to minds.

You seem to have a very limited concept of the natural world to include only mindless physical objects. Why do you have so much trouble allowing for the possibility that “matter” (which by the way we don’t fully understand) can be arranged into systems that are aware of themselves?
 
Suppose that conceiving a number is simply imagining a number.

Now let yourself conceive (i.e., imagine) of a number of an arbitrarily large size (e.g., 1,365,876,098,476). Now conceive (i.e., imagine) n +1.

Since it is beyond the capacity of imagination to grasp n and n +1-- because they are arbitrarily large, it is impossible that the human imagination can adequately deal with them by means of pictures-- we should conclude that, contrary to hypothesis that you do not actually conceive of n and n +1, or that conception is not simply a work of the faculty of imagination. For by imagination you cannot distinguish n and n+1-- they’re both just really big numbers-- so it can’t be by imagination that you distinguish the two of them. Hence, conception is not simply imagination, contrary to hypothesis.

-Rob
So if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that if conception=imagination then we should be able to imagine something to distinguish n and n+1. You claim we can’t imagine something to distinguish them, but since we can still distinguish them, conception cannot equal imagination?

For me the main issue with this is that the way we distinguish n and n + 1 is by the obvious difference in the sequence of digits that represents those numbers. And a sequence of digits is one way to imagine a number. For really big numbers you’d need increasingly longer sequences of digits, and increasingly more time to think about the sequence.

(A sequence of digits also fundamentally devolves into building up a number from smaller, prior units like 1345 is made up of 1000, 300, 40, and 5.)
 
If by observing your brain scientists can tell what you will choose before you consciously make the choice, I think it casts a dark shadow on the concept of contra-causal free will.
I’m not certain that it does. I think it is true that the relationship between the soul (in which you do not believe) and the brain is an intricate one. While I do believe the free will of the soul shapes the brain, so too the brain entices the free will of the soul, so that it is not inconceivable that a person may always follow the brain’s “lead”, even though the power exists to overcome it. The brain is complex, though (from a believer’s perspective) in itself not self-aware independent of the soul. All of those automatic, mechanical thought processes you believe in? I believe in them too. And I believe that a person may spend his or her entire life obeying them, thus (falsely) appearing, to a scientist, to be indistinguishable from his material brain.

Besides, one would have to experiment on every single person in the world in order to be certain that no one ever ever appears to defy the chemical processes of the brain in order to make a surprising decision that could not be predicted minutes before the conscious decision. Even then, it would be difficult to know if the subject’s testimony was fully reliable as to “when did they consciously make the decision,” and unless one has already come to the as yet unproven conclusion that the chemical reactions that appear linked to consciousness are in fact consciousness, the subject’s testimony would be the only real indication of when they were conscious (as in self-aware, not as in awake). For reasons we’ll get to below, even that is flimsy, because memory–a material thing–comes into play when relying on the subject’s testimony.
I would think neuroscientists would be the most qualified to judge whether something more than the brain is needed to explain consciousness. They are the ones who study the brain, and link the different parts/actions of the brain to different functions.
I do not believe they would be quite so qualified at all, let alone most qualified. One thing I have never seen tapped into is the experience of another’s “self”. Each person is aware of his or her “self” in an indescribable “just is” way that observation from an outside means cannot replicate. Yet that very personal awareness, which we call consciousness (in the sense of being aware one exists, not in the sense of being awake or exhibiting brain activity), is the only way to judge consciousness. In other words, no one is qualified to judge the nature of consciousness of another, only his own–from which he may or may not use inductive reasoning to arrive at a conclusion about other humans. Consciousness is not something you look at, it is something you experience. The conundrum here is that there is absolutely no way to ever conceivably demonstrate, scientifically (even to one’s own self), that one’s own consciousness–and again, only each individual is qualified to be the judge in this matter–can cease to exist or is dependent on the brain. What if I was braindead and remember nothing during the time that scientists say I had no brain activity? What of it? I know, and have never argued against, the fact that the brain is used to make memories (at least for now, until I shall go to Heaven or unless God enlightens me for some reason), and so if I were braindead, I would have formed no memories, so of course I would remember “nothing” from the brain-dead time, despite being aware of myself. Do you see the problem here? If I myself, when I reflect logically, cannot say whether or not I ceased to be during a brain-dead moment, how much less is an outside observer qualified to know? What if, for example, I was self-aware, independent of brain activity, but simply did not remember it for reasons previously stated? This would mean the soul had made no physical imprint on the brain. This would thus be indetectable in the physical brain, leading Neuroscientists to hastily (and illogically) conclude that my consciousness is likely nothing more than the result of the brain.

Of course the brain is going to show signs of consciousness as long as the brain functions and the soul is united with it, since the consciousness works on and (in this life) relies upon the brain for interacting with, perceiving, and manifesting in the physical world, and so must leave some “mark” on the brain during its attachment thereto whenever it’s at work. It is easy to see that neuroscientists would interpret these signs/marks as likely being the consciousness itself, but I do not think it is difficult to see the over-haste in drawing that conclusion.
You seem to have a very limited concept of the natural world to include only mindless physical objects. Why do you have so much trouble allowing for the possibility that “matter” (which by the way we don’t fully understand) can be arranged into systems that are aware of themselves?
Self awareness is still something of an illusion in that case, though, having no purpose or meaning beyond being a “gimmick” by which DNA seeks to preserve and propogate itself, no different than inertia being the means by which motion seeks to preserve and propel itself. Logically speaking, there is no reason to think we are inherently different from mindless physical forces or phenomena, since the “mind” is but a way for one more physical phenomenon to sustain itself just like the mindless ones; in the materialist version of reality, it is nothing higher, and nothing more profound, even if it is a great deal more complex. Rights, morality, and a host of other things we deem important (indeed, even the very concept of importance itself) are all illusions in such a case.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
I’m not certain that it does.
It certainly takes away from it. There are obvious limitations to this kind of study because we lack the equipment needed to analyze more complex decision or for that matter observe brain processes.

Still, while it doesn’t destroy free will completely (it’s possible you can still have veto power), it does take a lot away from it. If you have made the decision before you’re consciously aware of it, it certainly diminishes your free will. If your decisions are made by you unconsciously, but your free will is only the veto power over unconscious decisions, you’re still not free in the traditional sense.
Besides, one would have to experiment on every single person in the world in order to be certain that no one ever ever appears to defy the chemical processes of the brain in order to make a surprising decision that could not be predicted minutes before the conscious decision. Even then, it would be difficult to know if the subject’s testimony was fully reliable as to “when did they consciously make the decision,” and unless one has already come to the as yet unproven conclusion that the chemical reactions that appear linked to consciousness are in fact consciousness, the subject’s testimony would be the only real indication of when they were conscious (as in self-aware, not as in awake). For reasons we’ll get to below, even that is flimsy, because memory–a material thing–comes into play when relying on the subject’s testimony.
It’s true, these are all serious issues with experimentation techniques. Still, we’re improving. Now brain scans are being used, this kind of an experiment was done before (with the same result) using, IIRC, a braincap that measured electrical signals.
Consciousness is not something you look at, it is something you experience. The conundrum here is that there is absolutely no way to ever conceivably demonstrate, scientifically (even to one’s own self), that one’s own consciousness–and again, only each individual is qualified to be the judge in this matter–can cease to exist or is dependent on the brain.
I think you’re confusing “scientifically demonstrate” with “proof beyond all doubt”. There will always be doubt, and we’ll never know anything for sure. (For all I know, the very reasoning processes my brain is capable of are fundamentally flawed and will inevitably lead to bad conclusions.)

Science is not about proving something with certainty, beyond all doubt, completely and forever. It’s about providing a good explanation that explains observations and makes testable (and confirmed) predictions. How well the explanation is supported by evidence is all that matters, and explanations should be judged by the fruit they bear, if you will.
If I myself, when I reflect logically, cannot say whether or not I ceased to be during a brain-dead moment, how much less is an outside observer qualified to know? What if, for example, I was self-aware, independent of brain activity, but simply did not remember it for reasons previously stated? This would mean the soul had made no physical imprint on the brain. This would thus be indetectable in the physical brain, leading Neuroscientists to hastily (and illogically) conclude that my consciousness is likely nothing more than the result of the brain.
The point I wanted to make was that if it were impossible for brain processes to generate a mind on their own, independent of supernatural elements such as the soul, neuroscientists would be the first people to notice it since it is their field to see how brains account for various mental events, including the mind itself.
Logically speaking, there is no reason to think we are inherently different from mindless physical forces or phenomena, since the “mind” is but a way for one more physical phenomenon to sustain itself just like the mindless ones; in the materialist version of reality, it is nothing higher, and nothing more profound, even if it is a great deal more complex. Rights, morality, and a host of other things we deem important (indeed, even the very concept of importance itself) are all illusions in such a case.
I am apparently having a really hard time getting my point across. I am trying to think of a new way to phrase it. We don’t really understand what the universe is made of, on a fundamental level, the common sense concept of matter is meaningless. Matter on the microscopic level behaves very strangely and in a way that is completely against our logic and intuition. So do heavy things, so do rapidly moving things.

My point is that the world is a mysterious place, we have only very limited approximations of it in our scientific theories. We certainly observe that people are made of this stuff, and people have minds. To me this would imply that this stuff is capable of producing minds.

I don’t see why this would imply that rights and morality are illusions. They exist in our minds, and our minds exist in this world. They are just as real as anything else in it. 🤷
 
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