Who did not start with original sin?

[Evan]

The short list is

Adam and Eve. They were created with original innocence and committed the original sin to end their days in the original guilt.

This guilt was passed down as original sin as part of the fabric of humanity.

However, through special action on the part of God, Mary was preserved free of this original sin from her conception.

Jesus, in his conception, was also free of this by virtue of Him being the incarnate God.

Could God have created others, as He did Mary, free of original sin? Done it and not informed the Church? OR does the teaching on the signal grace recieved by Mary in the Immaculate Conception directly express or indirectly imply that God did not give this grace to any others?

The argument for NO=none others are created free of original sin
–>St Paul tells us all have sinned. But we know this ‘all’ is not everyone, but people in general. It does not include the unborn, those who die before the age of reason, etc. *

The argument for YES=it is possible others were created free of original sin
–>God can do what He wants so long as He does not contradict God i.e. His revelation. That is, truth cannot contradict itself.*

 

[FCEGM]

Evan, the way you have framed your original question implies that Jesus was/is not the only one to be incarnate.

 

[Evan]

True, each of us takes on flesh at our creation. (The actions are simultaneous). For we are creatures of flesh. We will be re-incarnated on the last day, when again we take on our new glorified bodies.

However Jesus, He was pre-existant so he took on flesh at the annunciation, but existed in a non-fleshy existance before that.

Adam and Eve were created
Mary concieved
Jesus incarnated only

I was trying to find a way to express all this in one sentence.

I think it works

 

[lak611]

Adam and Eve were created
Mary concieved
Jesus incarnated only

I haven’t answered your poll for this reason. Since only Jesus was incarnated, not created (He is eternally God and also existed before He was conceived–He is the God who is, who was, and who is to come), none of the above would be the only satisfactory answer to the poll.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think the poll is misguided.

Adam and Eve of course did not have original sin since it was their own sin that is the original sin.

So the question should be, who was conceived without original sin?

The answer would be Jesus and Mary.

To state that Adam and Eve who did not start original sin would confuse someone who is not well verse in the idea of original sin.

 

[Evan]

I haven’t answered your poll for this reason. Since only Jesus was incarnated, not created (He is eternally God and also existed before He was conceived–He is the God who is, who was, and who is to come), none of the above would be the only satisfactory answer to the poll.

Jesus is the only God who is incarnated, which means ‘with flesh’. He is THE incarnate deity. I don’t believe any angels are incarnated. But all people are incarnate: with flesh. As are all the animals.

 

[Evan]

SO. To kick it up a notch. Here is what brought me to this question.

There are some who hear Jesus say “John (meaning John the baptist) is the greatest man born of woman” which could be used to support the idea that he too was concieved without original sin. Similarly we hear that the baby leapt (meaning John the baptist) in Elizabeth’s womb when she heard the voice of Mary. She was then filled with the Holy Spirit. Again, lending some support to the idea. Many would say this is the baptism of the Holy Spirit given to John, not at conception, but at the awakening presence of the incarnate deity.

On the other hand, we have the proclamation of the immaculate conception. We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

This implies that Mary is unique in this quality. However, I do not believe the intention was to exclude others, only to INCLUDE Mary in the list of those incarnated without original sin.

By the way: Dictionary definition of incarnate

1. embodied in flesh; given a bodily, esp. a human, form.
2. personified or typified, as a quality or idea.
3. flesh-colored or crimson.
4. to put into or represent in a concrete form, as an idea.
5. to be the embodiment or type of.
6. to embody in flesh; invest with a bodily, esp. a human, form.

 

[CRW]

The short list is

Adam and Eve. They were created with original innocence and committed the original sin to end their days in the original guilt.

This guilt was passed down as original sin as part of the fabric of humanity.

However, through special action on the part of God, Mary was preserved free of this original sin from her conception.

Jesus, in his conception, was also free of this by virtue of Him being the incarnate God.

Could God have created others, as He did Mary, free of original sin? Done it and not informed the Church? OR does the teaching on the signal grace recieved by Mary in the Immaculate Conception directly express or indirectly imply that God did not give this grace to any others?

The argument for NO=none others are created free of original sin
–>St Paul tells us all have sinned. But we know this ‘all’ is not everyone, but people in general. It does not include the unborn, those who die before the age of reason, etc. *

The argument for YES=it is possible others were created free of original sin
–>God can do what He wants so long as He does not contradict God i.e. His revelation. That is, truth cannot contradict itself.*

Only the Blessed Virgin Mother was “born” without original sin. Adam and Eve were not born but created. Our Lord was not conceived by the seed from man.

Virginity During the Birth of Jesus

Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity. (De Fide on the ground of the general promulgation of doctrine.)

The dogma merely asserts the fact of the continuance of Mary’s physical virginity without determining more closely how this is to be physiologically explained. In general, the Fathers and the Schoolmen conceived it as non-injury to the hymen, and accordingly taught that Mary gave birth in miraculous fashion without opening of the womb and injury to her hymen, and accordingly, and consequently also without pains. Source: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Dr. Ludwig Ott