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happilycatholic
Guest
So in your faith you believe that God reigns over dead people in Heaven?
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happilycatholic
Guest
In what ways do we worship God here on earth? We pray to Him. We help others. We make sacrafices, etc. If it is to be “done on earth as it is in Heaven” then there are those worshipping God in Heaven even as we speak. Part of worshipping Him is praying for those in need. I would suppose that those in Heaven would simply speak to God without need of “prayer” as we know it on earth.
God’s will is for us to worship Him continually without fail. How are we to do that if we are dead in the ground for years? God does not mention any “down time”. None of the Apostles even remotely refer to any time between life and afterlife with the Heavenly Father. There are plenty of references of the living in Heaven and Jesus teaching us this. Here’s one:
MT 22:23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
MT 22:29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead–have you not read what God said to you, 32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” (St. Luke’s Gospel 20:38 adds “for to him all are alive” or “for all live unto him”)
Here’s another:
MT 17:1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
MT 17:4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters–one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
MT 17:5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
Also, it mentions in Scripture that the angels mediate for us so why would Saints (we will all be saints by the way) be any different since Christ said the Saints would be like Angels in Heaven:
HEB 1:14 “Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?”
You can’t ignore what these passages say. There are those alive in Heaven with the Heavenly Father now. I would hope they would speak in our favor.
God’s will is for us to worship Him continually without fail. How are we to do that if we are dead in the ground for years? God does not mention any “down time”. None of the Apostles even remotely refer to any time between life and afterlife with the Heavenly Father. There are plenty of references of the living in Heaven and Jesus teaching us this. Here’s one:
MT 22:23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
MT 22:29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead–have you not read what God said to you, 32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” (St. Luke’s Gospel 20:38 adds “for to him all are alive” or “for all live unto him”)
Here’s another:
MT 17:1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
MT 17:4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters–one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
MT 17:5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
Also, it mentions in Scripture that the angels mediate for us so why would Saints (we will all be saints by the way) be any different since Christ said the Saints would be like Angels in Heaven:
HEB 1:14 “Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?”
You can’t ignore what these passages say. There are those alive in Heaven with the Heavenly Father now. I would hope they would speak in our favor.
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swplan76
Guest
I think its a mystery as to exactly where the dead are.
I think scripture leaves it mysterious because it is none of our concern.
It seems that the angels in heaven as described in Revelations are consumed with worship - they are overwhelmed with it. I’ve heard it said that “the activity of Heaven is worship.” If I am consumed with worshipping God, overwhelmed with His presence, will I take time aside to check up on the soap opera of human life? I don’t imagine that will be something God wants us to be concerned with while we are in Heaven. While we are here on Earth we are far too concerned with “earthly things.”
Its possible that we understand time in the way we do because we exist in 3 dimensions. It may be that God exists in a whole different kind of dimension. It may be that time for God is like a timeline, or a ball and its all happening at once in front of Him. It may be that we think people are dying in a chronological order, but maybe, in God’s dimension, we all exit from life at once. Its as though as each of us die, we all step off of the timeline at the same time. As this happens, we also move together from 3 dimensions into the spiritual realm.
What I’ve suggested is just a maybe, not a definite that I am committed to. I don’t know and I don’t think we are given the information that fills in those blanks…
…So I don’t think we are encouraged to pray to the dead. I think its something put in to practice at some point in our history that doesn’t meet with what scripture leads us to.
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swplan76
Guest
It may be that Moses and Elijah (and the thief on the cross) were taken to paradise before the rest of us. It may be that some people are judged before the rest of humanity and taken to be with God - or maybe they aren’t judged, but they just enter heaven (God knows).
The rest of us will come before Him like sheep and goats. We will then be divided. Some of us to enter into Heaven. The rest will not.
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adstrinity
Guest
I pray to God, mostly.
I say the Rosary (constantly asking Mary to bring my petitions before God).
I have a quasi-devotion to St. Anthony of Padua (I probably should implore his help more often…he has a 100% track record with me…If I ask his prayers in a situation, I have yet to be let down…WHICH is not to say he is my personal genie or anything; I just don’t know why he loves me so much and Christ loves him so much as to hear what he asks…). I love St. Anthony. He is a beautiful man and I should love him more.
I have prayed to St. John The Baptist. I had said something that was probably mocking the man and I felt guilty about it because that IS God’s cousin…God probably wouldn’t look favourably upon me if I insult any of His creation, let alone His kin so a priest suggested I appologize to St. John The Baptist in prayer as pennance.
I say the Rosary (constantly asking Mary to bring my petitions before God).
I have a quasi-devotion to St. Anthony of Padua (I probably should implore his help more often…he has a 100% track record with me…If I ask his prayers in a situation, I have yet to be let down…WHICH is not to say he is my personal genie or anything; I just don’t know why he loves me so much and Christ loves him so much as to hear what he asks…). I love St. Anthony. He is a beautiful man and I should love him more.
I have prayed to St. John The Baptist. I had said something that was probably mocking the man and I felt guilty about it because that IS God’s cousin…God probably wouldn’t look favourably upon me if I insult any of His creation, let alone His kin so a priest suggested I appologize to St. John The Baptist in prayer as pennance.
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Cody1611
Guest
Humble Questions…
Why do you pray through saints when the Bible says there is ONE mediator? Also, where in the Bible does it tell us to pray through saints?
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"
Another question…
Where in the Bible does it say that Mary was the mother of God? I know that she is the mother of Jesus Christ, God manifest, but God is eternal and was before Mary. To me the Bible teaches that Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but not God the Father, Creator of the Universe.
Also, I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a Virgin, even after Jesus Christ was born.
Mary was a virgin at Christ’s birth, but notice in the below verse it says “her firstborn son”.
Matthew 1:25 “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” KJV
Mary had other children.
Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” KJV
Also, look at Matthew 12:46, Mark 3:31; 6:3, Luke 8:19, John 2:12.
These were not His spiritual brothers because they did not believe in Him until the resurrection.
John 7:5 “For neither did his brethren believe in him.” KJV
The Bible makes clear between Jesus’ physical and spiritual brothers.
John 2:12 “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” KJV
Other questions…
Is there scriptural proof for Purgatory?
Thank you for your attention and God bless
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adstrinity
Guest
- These questions have all been addressed here before.
- If you are sincere in your quest for knowledge, please start a different thread with each point. I could respond to the questions here, but, they don’t really belong in this thread.
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Cody1611
Guest
Will do, Sir.
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adstrinity
Guest
…Miss.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
Clearly we see the Scriptures differently. I see substantial support for the Body of Christ that includes all believers both on earth and in heaven… we are one Body in Christ. Asking our triumphant brothers and sisters in heaven for their intercession is far from an act of necromancy - in which a person on earth attempts to manipulate unknown spirits to gain hidden information. Prayer to the saints is not necromancy. There is no attempt to manipulate or compel intercession. The act is a petition made in communion with our Lord - the One Mediator. It is not an attempt to manipulate the spiritual realm, but a submission to the will of Christ that arises directly from his position as Mediator between God and Man.
swplan:
It’s even deeper than that my friend. We are spiritually grafted into His Body (He is the Vine, we are the branches). In this way the community of believers are indeed one spiritual body in Christ - a living relationship with the Savior Lord.
No Catholic thinks that they are barred from talking directly with God in prayer. I think the fundamental issue is whether one sees Christianity as a familial relationship that includes all the aunts, uncles, cousins, brothers and sisters, or as a stripped down, “just me an’ God” relationship. Catholics see the Family of God as a living thing that includes not just God as Father but saints as real family that are involved in our lives in a real way - a “cloud of witnesses” watching as we run the race. This does not make the saints in heaven divine, nor does it mean they supplant or take anything away from Christ. Rather, the richness the saints bring to our prayer life and our individual relationship to Christ flows directly from the Vine (Christ) into which we are all grafted and made adopted sons and daughters of the Father.
Peace,
Robert
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Cody1611
Guest
Oh sorry, Miss. 
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
The saints do not take the place of Christ the one mediator. They are separate intercessors who - like all of us - were baptized into Christ Jesus. The communion of saints would not exist without Christ as the Vine (or the head of the body). They can intercede only because of Christ’s position, not in spite of it, or apart from it in any way.
Peace,
Robert
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
This is wrong. It also has nothing to do with the Catholic doctrines concerning prayers to the saints in heaven.
When do you think it was added? Can you be specific as to when and where it came from?
Peace,
Robert
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swplan76
Guest
Hey Robert,
Please feel free to point me to the scriptures that will make it clear to me that the dead are available to us to pray to and that Jesus, or the NT church was in the practice of praying to the dead.
If the dead are not available to us as I suggest is likely the case as it is not a practice that is pointed to in scripture (as far as I’ve been able to discern) I think it may be great folly to pray to the dead. I admire the idea that you believe that you are building community with those who have gone on before us. That would be nice, but if they are not available, then nothing is being achieved. All the time and effort that has gone into building community with the dead could be time gone into building community with those who are alive around you, or in prayer, with God. I think its important that people find themselves in community with those around them, invested in each other’s lives. Could it be that some Catholics think they have build community with the dead and so they do not put as much effort into the relationships they have with the living? As I said before, I know living Saints who I am in community with - I like that you are encouraging that relationship - family - I think this should be the way people see each other at church. I’ve been to many Catholic masses. I don’t get the sense of being family, or that other people see each other as family (that’s just me though). Maybe its where I live. This is a problem with many protestant churches too.
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Louie1983
Guest
I’m not too sure what sufism is sorry?
At mass we pray as one as we partake in the mystery of the mass.
Ofcourse we pray to Jesus, especially when he is right there present in the eucharist!
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swplan76
Guest
I don’t know, but I don’t see it in scripture.
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swplan76
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Sufism is a branch of Islam.
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Ceil-1
Guest
I pray to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, collectively, and individually, addressing each of them in a different way, according to their roles and my relationship to them.
I ask the Father mainly for mercy, and, bring up Jesus’ name because I know it is only on His behalf that I have any privelege at all, with the Father. I think of Him as Jesus taught us, a loving, but stern father.
To Jesus, I direct the majority of worship, praise, supplication and appreciation, because He is so deserving of it. I am somewhat fearful of Him because it is He who I must please. He demands heroic virtue, and this seems impossible to achieve.
The Holy Spirit, I ask for enlightenment and understanding and all the gifts He gives, because that is what He is there for. He is mysterious and very hard to understand.
The saints, our brothers and sisters already in glory with God are rooting for us, and doing what they can to help. It is their example, even more than their prayers that help us.
I also ask the angels for protection, prayers and assistance. They are powerful allies who often get neglected.
As far as the mother of Jesus, well, she needs a thread all her own.
Protestants assume on the benevolence of God without taking into account justice, and what should be our proper response. I think they are missing out, big time. I hope it will not forfeit them, but, it seems pretty hard to stay on the good graces of God as it is. Why rely on one or two parts when you can have the whole thing?
I ask the Father mainly for mercy, and, bring up Jesus’ name because I know it is only on His behalf that I have any privelege at all, with the Father. I think of Him as Jesus taught us, a loving, but stern father.
To Jesus, I direct the majority of worship, praise, supplication and appreciation, because He is so deserving of it. I am somewhat fearful of Him because it is He who I must please. He demands heroic virtue, and this seems impossible to achieve.
The Holy Spirit, I ask for enlightenment and understanding and all the gifts He gives, because that is what He is there for. He is mysterious and very hard to understand.
The saints, our brothers and sisters already in glory with God are rooting for us, and doing what they can to help. It is their example, even more than their prayers that help us.
I also ask the angels for protection, prayers and assistance. They are powerful allies who often get neglected.
As far as the mother of Jesus, well, she needs a thread all her own.
Protestants assume on the benevolence of God without taking into account justice, and what should be our proper response. I think they are missing out, big time. I hope it will not forfeit them, but, it seems pretty hard to stay on the good graces of God as it is. Why rely on one or two parts when you can have the whole thing?
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Louie1983
Guest
Thankyou!
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Christ is the Head of His Body. And there is more to a body than its head (a severed head on a spike is not a human being). IOW, He has members. These include the Saints in Heaven. The members do not replace the head - they are in union with it: which is a completely different idea. The Saints depend entirely on Christ: just as all creatures do, even if they don’t realise it (oxygen does not need recognising to be in our lungs - far less does the Spirit of Christ Who dwells in the Saints).
In short, among many things that are inconceivable, impossible, & totally non-existent in every respect, Saints independent of Christ are included: no such beings exist, nor could they. The very idea is incoherent & meaningless. Therefore, what the Saints in Heaven do, they do by no power that is not that of Christ dwelling within them.And if a few hundred bits of paper in a book can be used by the Holy Spirit to assist Christians on earth, why can the same Spirit not work in and through the Saints in Heaven to assist Christians on earth ? The principle that justifies the use of the Bible is the same as that which justifies the use of the Saints, or any other gift of God. There is no more inherent holiness in the Bible, than in the Saints: because in both cases, the primacy is Christ’s.
The Saints are not obstacles between us and Christ: that would imply that Christ is confined to Heaven. But He is God as well as man - therefore, He is absent from no part of His creation whatever. He is not confined or restricted by His own creatures: on the contrary, He transcends them all: therefore, He is nearer to each of His own creatures than any of them could be to each other. We can “go” to the Saints, only because Christ is our way to them - for they are in Him, & to go to Him, is to enter into communion with those who are in Him. To know them - we must know Him. So how can they be obstacles to Him ?
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