Who do you pray to?

[Mighty_Sword]

Robert in SD,

Like I said, Origins are everything and denial is an ugly thing! And their arrogance is a apprerant today as it was then.

Once the form of Christianity embraced by certain pro-Roman factions gained political power and recognition the Catholic Church began a long process of distilling and canonizing its beliefs into a Roman hierarchically authorized form. This form is what we today refer to as Roman Catholicism.
Other forms of Christian religion continued as well but these were forced underground by severe persecution. Sects like the Abegensians, Cathers, Arians, Anabaptists, the Coptic Church, etc. maintained their teaching as the arguably true Christian faith largely underground but by this point it was impossible to identify any as being truly apostolic (as the teachings of the Apostles). ***In time most of these were destroyed by the might of the Catholic Church or faded away and yet the Papacy never managed to completely destroy the other sects. ***

The catholics get an “A” for effoert in trying to eliminate the other christians sects, but not completely.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Its interesting that no one has been able to bring any scripture that directly encourages or supports the idea of praying to the dead.

See my Post 58.
swplan:

Responses trying to convince me with out the use of scripture (as I have asked for) are starting to convince me that either I’m right and there isn’t any scriptural backing or people just aren’t familiar with the scriptures that support it.

I know this is a bit off topic, but it becomes relevant because of your demand for proof *only *from Scripture: Why is it that you think all doctrine must be in Scripture to be valid? Does the bible expressly state that ONLY scripture is a valid source for true doctrine? If so, where does it say that? And how do you know which of the books of the canon qualify as scripture and which are questionable? What if you and I have a disagreement about the authenticity of John’s Apocalypse (Revelation) Luther had his concerns about this book and others from the NT. Was he correct to think such things about books like James and 1 Peter and Revelation? Where would we go to decide which of us is correct (or perhaps learn that we’re both wrong)? Absent some proof that only the 66 books of scripture that you ascribe to are valid sources for Christian doctrine, I will continue to interpret Scripture in light of the Magesterial authority of the Church and the entire deposit of faith, which includes Sacred Tradition. And I will continue to look to the Churhc and Sacred Tradition for teaching on matters of Doctrine and Morals.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Mighty_Sword]

Robert in SDDoes the bible expressly state that ONLY scripture is a valid source for true doctrine?
Thats funny,

John 1:1 In the begining was the word , and the word was with God and the word was God.

Romans 16:17, Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

That means the catholics. Paul was a Jew that Jesus himself recruited.

Robert in SD, I will continue to interpret Scripture in light of the Magesterial authority of the Church and the entire deposit of faith, which includes Sacred Tradition. And I will continue to look to the Churhc and Sacred Tradition for teaching on matters of Doctrine and Morals.

And us Christians will continue to seek The Counsel of The Holy Spirit whom Jesus left in his place.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Robert in SDDoes the bible expressly state that ONLY scripture is a valid source for true doctrine?
Thats funny,

John 1:1 In the begining was the word , and the word was with God and the word was God.

Do you believe that this refers to the 66 book bible. Is your bible “God?”

I believe this passage is clearly referring to the Second Person of the Trinity. The Second Person of the Trinity is the eternal Word of God. The bible is the word of God revealed to us through the inspired writers of the original texts. These are two distinct concepts. John is linking the Christ to the Word of God spoken at the time of the creation. John is clearly not speaking of a 66 book bible being present in the beginning. He was referring to the Second Person of the Trinity. The bible is the creation of many inspired men and it is a revelation of God to the World. But it is not a God-substitute. Nor is it a substitute for the Church.
MS:

Romans 16:17, Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Where does this say that only the Scriptures are valid sources for doctrine? It also says nothing about the 66 book canon that most protestants hold to as being the exclusive source for doctrine. Nor does Romans expressly state that the doctrine Paul was imparting was either (1) from inspired texts alone; or (2) inspired teaching that was going to be eventually incorporated into later inspired texts.
MS:

That means the catholics.

Wow. Taken on its own (as you have done) Couldn’t this passage also be referring to the reformers, or any denomination of protestantism, or the Orthodox Churches, or the Mormons, JWs, SDAs? Havent’ all of these groups caused divisions and offenses contrary to doctrines that are constantly in dispute?
MS:

Paul was a Jew that Jesus himself recruited.

OK. I’m not sure what your point is here. Peter was also a Jew that Jesus Himself recruited. So were the other Apostles, with the exception of Matthias who was appointed by the other Apostles to take the place of the deceased Judas, and enrolled as an Apostle. (Acts 1:26) Christ and these Apostles - including Paul - are the source of all Catholic doctrine and authority.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Mighty_Sword:

And us Christians will continue to seek The Counsel of The Holy Spirit whom Jesus left in his place.

False dichotomy alert!!! :dts:

Christ sent His Holy Spirit to the Apostles to guide the Church to all truth. That Spirit still resides within His Church - the Holy Catholic Church. The only Church that can trace its roots back directly across time to the Apostles and Christ. As the successor to Peter, the Pope holds the same responsibility as did Peter and the Apostles - to proclaim the fullness of the Gospel to the world, and to baptize for the forgiveness of sins.

Other christian communities - to various degrees - have held to the truth in differing amounts. Some - like the Orthodox - are so closely aligned as to be almost in full communion. Others still hold truths like the divinity of Christ, the sacramental nature of baptism, etc., but have failed to maintain the fullness of what was passed down faithfully by the Church from the time of the Apostles to the present. The Holy Spirit still looks kindly upon those who, although not in full union with His Church, are honored with the name Christian. But that does not guaranty that these persons will properly ascertain all of those truths entrusted by Christ to His Church.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Mighty_Sword]

RobertSD,

John 14:25-27
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

I believe The Holy Scripture over every false doctrine.

Robert in SD,

If there is one thing I have learned in debating a catholic is your undeniable denial. Proof mean absolutely nothing to you, even scripture because you were taught that you are above scripture, But God will clean his house, and it needs a holy cleaning, the arrogance of the catholics from killing Christians since the begining of it unholy existence such as William Tyndale and he is just one of an unknown number of martyrs, A christian who wanted to translate The Bible into english and was ordered by the catholic church to be strangled and burned at the stake and he was, to child molestation by catholic preists that is still alive today, read on the 30,000 plus in Ireland a nine year investigation which by the way catholics preists accused of child molestation are being hidden, what a coincedence. Your foundation is not GOD, Jesus or The Holy Spirit but the church itself and everyone knows it. They have not a leg to stand on anymore.

 

[koranist]

Genesis 17:1-4 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Deuteronomy 5:6-9 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 7 Thou shalt have none other gods before Me. 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 **Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them nor serve them… **

Psalm 95:6 O come,** let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.**

Revelations 7:11-12 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Joshua 7:6-7 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord until eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.

Numbers 16:20-22 **And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying, 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. 22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt Thou be wroth with the all of the congregation? **

Numbers 20:6 **And Moses and Aaron **went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them.

Matthew 26:36-39 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gesthemane, and saith unto his disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. 37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be very sorrowful and heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death; tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou Wilt.

Then the man bowed down and worshipped the Lord. (Genesis, 24:26)

…So they sang praises with gladness and bowed their heads and worshipped. (2 Chronicles, 29:30)

and I bowed down and worshiped the Lord. I praised the Lord…(Genesis, 24:48)

… Then the people bowed down and worshipped…did just what the Lord commanded Moses and Aaron. (Exodus, 12:27-28)

and they believed. And when they heard that the Lord was concerned about them and had seen their misery, they bowed down and worshipped. (Exodus, 4:31)

and bowed down…three times, with his face to the ground. (1 Samuel, 20:41)

Ezra praised the Lord, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, “Amen! Amen!” Then they bowed down and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground. (Nehemiah, 8:6)

Abram bowed with his face touching the ground…(Genesis, 17:3)

When Abraham’s servant heard what they said, he bowed down to the ground before the Lord. (Genesis, 24:52)

Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshipped. (Exodus, 34:

When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. (Numbers, 16:4)

they bowed low and fell prostrate before the Lord. (1 Chronicles, 29:20)

they knelt on the pavement with their faces to the ground, and they worshipped and gave thanks to the Lord…(2 Chronicles, 7:3)

Muhammad is the Messenger of God. Those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers merciful one to another. You see them bowing, prostrating, seeking blessing, bounty and good pleasure (of God). Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel: 48:29)

Thats how I pray

 

[Mighty_Sword]

koranist, you’re out of your league.

mohammed was a pedophile, and allah bribes his followers with sex, 72 virgins i think it is

Question:What si the difference between a catholic preist and a muslim cleric?

Answer: The muslim cleric marries his victim.

the god Allah was a pagan deity. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters.In ancient Syria and Canna, the Moon-god Sin was usually represented by the moon in its crescent phase. At times the full moon was placed inside the crescent moon to emphasize all the phases of the moon.

The Old Testament constantly rebuked the worship of the Moon-god (see: Deut. 4:19;17:3; II Kngs. 21:3,5; 23:5; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5, etc.) When Israel fell into idolatry, it was usually the cult of the Moon-god.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

RobertSD,

John 14:25-27
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Amen! Jesus was speaking with His Apostles at the Last Supper when He promised to send them the Holy Spirit. He did not state that He was sending the Holy Spirit to all believers to rightly define doctrine from the yet-to-be-penned and complied 66 book Protestant Bible.
MS:

I believe The Holy Sripture over every false doctrine.

Me too! I’m a Catholic. I reject false doctrines of men like Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.
MS:

If there is one thing I have learned in debating a catholic is your undeniable denial. Proof mean absolutely nothing to you, even scripture because you were taught that you are above scripture, But God will clean his house, and it needs a holy cleaning, the arrogance of the catholics from killing Christians since the begining of it unholy existence such as William Tyndale and he is just one of an unknown number of martyrs, A christian who wanted to translate The Bible into english and was ordered by the catholic church to be strangled and burned at the stake and he was…

And there’s one thing I’ve learned while on this forum… don’t waste any time with people who raise hosts of accusations and ad hominem attacks, but offer nothing to support their assertions. I was hoping for more than wild-eyed polemics. I am disappointed.
MS:

to child molestation that is still alive today, read on the 30,000 plus in Ireland a nine year investigation which by the way catholics preists accused of child molestation are being hidden, what a coincedence…

Ah, yes… the priest scandal card. I’m not going to play tit for tat with you about that. Yes, the abuse is horrible. But it only proves that the Church is filled with sinners. That’s true for non-Catholics as well. People commit horrible sins. Others sin further by trying to hide it from the public. These things happen in non-Catholic Churches too. But these sins say nothing about correct doctrine.
MS:

Your foundation is not GOD, Jesus or The Holy Spirit but the church itself and everyone knows it.

Wow! You have the authority to speak for “everyone?” Maybe you just mean every one of your anti-Catholic friends and associates?

Peace,
Robert

 

[Louie1983]

Hey Louie,

    I agree, I think the Bible points to there being another authority in John 14-16, The Holy Spirit.  My experience has led me to understand that the Holy Spirit confirms things with in us.  The authority of scripture is confirmed to me as I read it (as is understanding of it).  From what I can see, the primary authority according to scripture is the HS.  The HS uses scripture in our lives to lead us into understanding.  If we need to know something about who God is, who we need to be, what life can be, the HS can show us using scripture.  Sometimes God will also use other sources through the HS (eg. people, answers to prayer, etc...).

     I am not at the point where I believe that something is true just because the Catholic church teaches it.  I don't think scripture encourages this kind of approach either (I know here I go again, demanding scripture :mad: :shrug::cool::D )

Oral traditions of the church
You put in brackets “Catholic” … I don’t see myself as excluded from the true Catholic Church. I am a member of the body of Christ - I don’t believe the Catholic Church is the only one. I think it would be great if the various sections of the church could come together in every city in order to do the work God has for us to do… I think its sad that we disagree on small stuff and we let that divide us. God should be glorified through our lives - how much could be done to bring glory to God if we would all join together in Jesus’ name?

But to did jesus give the keys to the kingdom of heaven? he didn;t give it to everyone he gave to his representative on earth (peter - therefore the catholic church). He promised he would send the holy spirit to guide the apostles and he did at pentecost, on whom did the holy spirit descend on at pentecost? it was the apostles, no-one else. Why didn’t the holy spirit descend on everyone then? this is a clear example that god was giving his authority to his holy catholic church to forgive and loose sins. There has to be an authority (the holy spirit through the catholic church) to guide and preach the truth against sin and ultimately error.

You don’t believe that the scriptures encourage the idea that the church has the truth? Well then here are some bible passages that prove the authority of the catholic church:

• Mark 3:16; John 1:42 – Jesus renames Simon “Kepha” in Aramaic which literally means “rock.” This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because “rock” was not even a name in Jesus’ time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person’s name, He changes their status

-Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

• Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority
• 1 & 2 Peter - for example, Peter denied Christ, he was rebuked by his greatest bishop (Paul), and yet he wrote two infallible encyclicals. Further, if Peter could teach infallibly by writing, why could he not also teach infallibly by preaching? And why couldn’t his successors so teach as well?

You say you don’t see yourself excluded from the catholic church? Unfortunately for you there is 2000 years of church teaching and the early church fathers who disagree with you. There is only 1 body of Jesus Christ and that is his Holy Catholic church, if yo do not accept the teachings and instructions of the church, then how can you say that you are catholic? It’s like saying you are a muslim but don’t accept mohammed as a true prophet from god.

The holy spirit does guide us through the catholic church, it has never and will never change it’s teachings and has proven that it has apostolic succession and has not broken the line of the chair of st peter.

I also pray that all christians return home to the catholic church. I pray for it everyday, but please note that the catholic church cannot and will not compromise any part of the faith for the sake of union with other denominations, the union with christ is the most important one to the church, it will never compromise it.

God bless you.

 

[Mighty_Sword]

Robert in SD, Ah, yes… the priest scandal card. I’m not going to play tit for tat with you about that. Yes, the abuse is horrible. But it only proves that the Church is filled with sinners. That’s true for non-Catholics as well. People commit horrible sins. Others sin further by trying to hide it from the public. These things happen in non-Catholic Churches too. But these sins say nothing about correct doctrine.

The difference is, these are’nt everyday people molesting babies, these are men respesenting GOD, huge difference and what an insult to the victims, “the preist scandal card”, it’s not about preists, it’s about children, do you even hear yourself? Not just any church, the catholic church.Do the right thing and turn them in the the proper authorities, Oh I forgot the church is "above "the law. Right the wrongs before you get on your soapbox.

 

[Louie1983]

Robert in SD, Ah, yes… the priest scandal card. I’m not going to play tit for tat with you about that. Yes, the abuse is horrible. But it only proves that the Church is filled with sinners. That’s true for non-Catholics as well. People commit horrible sins. Others sin further by trying to hide it from the public. These things happen in non-Catholic Churches too. But these sins say nothing about correct doctrine.

The difference is, these are’nt everyday people molesting babies, these are men respesenting GOD, huge difference and what an insult to the victims, “the preist scandal card”, it’s not about preists, it’s about children, do you even hear yourself? Not just any church, the catholic church.Do the right thing and turn them in the the proper authorities, Oh I forgot the church is "above "the law. Right the wrongs before you get on your soapbox.

No-one is denying the horrible crimes going on, Robert certainly didn’t. Yes i agree it is worse because they represent god, but it’s not like it only happens in the catholic church, it happens in other christian denominations also.

The church has it’s problems with this issue, but you have to distnguish between what the church actually teaches and what the conduct of it’s members are.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Robert in SD, Ah, yes… the priest scandal card. I’m not going to play tit for tat with you about that. Yes, the abuse is horrible. But it only proves that the Church is filled with sinners. That’s true for non-Catholics as well. People commit horrible sins. Others sin further by trying to hide it from the public. These things happen in non-Catholic Churches too. But these sins say nothing about correct doctrine.

The difference is, these are everyday people molesting babies, these are men respesenting GOD, huge difference and what an insult to the victims, “the preist scandal card”, it’s not about preists, it’s about children, do you even hear yourself?

Yes. You raised the issue as a priest issue yourself… “these are men of God” (see above). And yes MS, there are “men of God” in other non-Catholic Churches raping children and hiding it from the authorities. If you don’t believe me, just Google the internet for the information. And by no means do I assert that Catholic priests who molest children should be protected from the law or given a free pass. They are NOT men of God but wolves in sheeps clothing in the fullest sense of the word. What makes their crimes more heinous in my eyes is that they have invaded God’s Church to engage in their crimes. It is a sin and a disgrace that I hope will be dragged out into the light of day and exposed so the cancer can be cut away. But, as I noted above, it proves (or disproves) nothing about the truth of doctrine. There is no such thing as a Church filled with sinless members. If there were, I would ruin its record the minute I joined it because I, like you, am a sinner.
MS:

Not just any church, the catholic church.Do the right thing and turn them in the the proper authorities, Oh I forgot the church is "above "the law.

I’m all for turning these guys in. If I knew where they were I would drop a dime on them in a heartbeat. But, again, even if persons within the Church were trying to cover up their crimes that does nothing to prove or disprove doctrine. These are two separate issues.

Napoleon once threatened the bishop of Paris that He would destroy the Catholic Church… the Bishop quipped back that he highly doubted it, as the clergy had been trying unsuccessfully for centuries to destroy it without much success. The real Church is a hospital for sinners, and not a museum for saints. Your appeal to the priest scandal holds no weight at all when it comes to addressing doctrinal issues. You should drop it and try to support the merits of your contention with honest argument as opposed to dissembling and misdirection…

Peace,
Robert

 

[Mighty_Sword]

louie 1983

Matthew 16:13-20

13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15"But what about you?" he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,** and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it.[d] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.” 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

I miss the part where Jesus said , upon you peter I will build my church, key word, “you” he never did say “you”, Jesus said,The Rock was the fact that GOD had revealed it GOD will always be The Rock, not a man. Glory to a man, are you blind?

Another catholic tragedy.

Jesus told his disciples, Blessed are you that have seen me, but blessed more are those that have not seen me and believe in me.**

 

[Mighty_Sword]

Robert in SD,

I’m all for turning these guys in. If I knew where they were I would drop a dime on them in a heartbeat. But, again, even if persons within the Church were trying to cover up their crimes that does nothing to prove or disprove doctrine. These are two separate issues.

But the vatican is’nt crazy about turning them in, in fact they are hiding them, and you belong to a church that harbors criminals? Yes you do. It’s called aiding and abedding. And justice will be served. GOD will not be mocked. How can anyone take the catholic seriously knowing they are criminals? Thats like wolves leading the sheep to the slaughter.

Robert in SD,

I believe in your heart you love GOD, by way of Christ, you don’t have to belong to a religion to have a relationship with the Holy Father. I leave you with this, “Wyeth Hellek I’th Ha Elohim” and whether I like it or not , you are my brother, If you want to know what religion I Am then ask yourself what religion are Angels?, Your Servant, The Mighty Sword. Till Tommorow.

 

[Louie1983]

louie 1983

Matthew 16:13-20

13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15"But what about you?" he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,** and on this rock I will build my church**, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it.[d] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.” 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

I miss the part where Jesus said , upon you peter I will build my church, key word, “you” he never did say “you”, Jesus said,The Rock was the fact that GOD had revealed it GOD will always be The Rock, not a man. Glory to a man, are you blind?

Another catholic tragedy.

Jesus told his disciples, Blessed are you that have seen me, but blessed more are those that have not seen me and believe in me.

Are you serious? Did you just see what you wrote? you answered your own question in your so called rebuttle. Jesus was speaking to Peter alone when he said this. You missed the part where he said “you” to peter? i thought you said you read the bible?

Your exegis of scripture is quite amatuer and it really creates problems for you. Here are examples that prove that jesus was speaking to peter:

-Matt. 16:18-19 – Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to **“you,” and I tell “you,” **“you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven.

• John 21:15-17 - Jesus selects Peter to be the chief shepherd of the apostles when He says to Peter, “feed my lambs,” “tend my sheep,” “feed my sheep.” Peter will shepherd the Church as Jesus’ representative.
• Matt. 16:18-19 - to argue that Jesus first blesses Peter for having received divine revelation from the Father, then diminishes him by calling him a small pebble, and then builds him up again by giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven is entirely illogical, and a gross manipulation of the text to avoid the truth of Peter’s leadership in the Church. This is a three-fold blessing of Peter - you are blessed, you are the rock on which I will build my Church, and you will receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven (not you are blessed for receiving Revelation, but you are still an insignificant little pebble, and yet I am going to give you the keys to the kingdom).

God bless.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

But the vatican is’nt crazy about turning them in, in fact they are hiding them, and you belong to a church that harbors criminals? Yes you do. It’s called aiding and abedding. And justice will be served. GOD will not be mocked. How can anyone take the catholic seriously knowing they are criminal? Thats like wolves leading the sheep to the slaughter.

Did you mean “aiding and abetting.”

Don’t strain yourself jumping to conclusions. An aidor and abettor is someone who assists another in the accomplishment of a common design or purpose. He or she must be aware of, and consent, to such design or purpose. I’m not sure where you are drawing the conclusion that a person or persons at the Vatican are aidors and abettors to sex abuse in Ireland (or anywhere for that matter). Certainly, there may be a person or persons at Vatican City who have become aware of past acts of sexual abuse by members of the clergy. And it is even conceivable that such a person or persons may - out of a misguided sense of devotion to the Church, try to secret away persons accused of such a crime. That does not make the Vatican (or the Pope as you may be implying) directly liable for the sexual abuse in Ireland. If you think that the Pope is responsibe as a CEO may be responsible for the actions taken by a corporation, then there’s a lot you need to learn about the governing structures of the Church.

And, again, I’m not supporting pedophile priests. And if any laws were broken by persons in Vatican City or Ireland, or anywhere else, regarding the failure to report and disclose sexual abuse by members of the Catholic clergy then those individuals should be brought to justice. But this sad tragedy says nothing about the truth or falsity of Church doctrine, just as Cromwell’s rape of Ireland and the Clerical laws that penalized Catholics for being Catholics in Ireland neither proves or disproves the doctrinal authority of the Church of England. The puritans protestants were not proven false in their beliefs because they persecuted women for being “witches” and the Muslims are not proven true or false by acts of extremist terrorism. Such arguments are logically weak polemic that are only swallowed by the weakest and most easily deceived among believers.

Peace,
Robert

 

[regression]

Robert in SD, I just wanted to say I applaud your level headedness and civility in response to obvious (to me at least) attempts to stir up trouble. Your signature makes perfect sense

 

[kalt]

RobertSD,

John 14:25-27
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

I believe The Holy Scripture over every false doctrine.

Robert in SD,

If there is one thing I have learned in debating a catholic is your undeniable denial. Proof mean absolutely nothing to you, even scripture because you were taught that you are above scripture, But God will clean his house, and it needs a holy cleaning, the arrogance of the catholics from killing Christians since the begining of it unholy existence such as William Tyndale and he is just one of an unknown number of martyrs, A christian who wanted to translate The Bible into english and was ordered by the catholic church to be strangled and burned at the stake and he was, to child molestation by catholic preists that is still alive today, read on the 30,000 plus in Ireland a nine year investigation which by the way catholics preists accused of child molestation are being hidden, what a coincedence. Your foundation is not GOD, Jesus or The Holy Spirit but the church itself and everyone knows it. They have not a leg to stand on anymore.

That’s quite a claim. Do you have any proof the support that claim?

I see that Sword has been banned. Never mind.

 

[Peter_J]

I see that Sword has been banned.

Can’t say I’m really surprised. I’m sure that if I joined “Rapture Ready” or “Bible Forums” or some such, and then made statements about Protestantism like the statements Mighty Sword has been making about Catholicism, they would ban me pretty quick.