"Who does not honour the Son, honours the Father neither"

[CutlerB]

We had our Bible Study today again and there was one guy who is not a Christian yet as far as I know, who asked a very difficult question. It concerns John 5, verses 23 and 46. They read this way.

John 5:22-23
For neither does the Father judge any man: but has given all judgment to the Son.That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. He who honours not the Son honours not the Father who has sent him.

John 5:45-47
Think not that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one that accuses you, Moses, in whom you trust. For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also: for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?

Now, the question was this: Isn’t Jesus missing a third option, namely this one: Suppose I was Prince Harry and went to a concert and say ‘You have got to let me in, I am a member of the Royal Family!’. But the people at the door don’t recognise me. They aren’t dishonouring the Queen, are they? They simply don’t recognise me!

Then he said: After all, Jesus says Moses wrote of Him in the Pentateuch. But nowhere there does it say anything that would let the people know what the Messiah would be like, so that they could identify Him, does it? Something like: “He will do this or that, He will have this name and look like this.”

He also suggested that the Bible contains errors and we do not need absolute certainty as to the veracity of its content, namely that John made errors in recording the above two statements, as they miss a third option.

This is getting me really worked up, so I look for help here. Thank you!

 

[jcrichton]

We had our Bible Study today again and there was one guy who is not a Christian yet as far as I know, who asked a very difficult question. It concerns John 5, verses 23 and 46. They read this way.

Now, the question was this: Isn’t Jesus missing a third option, namely this one: Suppose I was Prince Harry and went to a concert and say ‘You have got to let me in, I am a member of the Royal Family!’. But the people at the door don’t recognise me. They aren’t dishonouring the Queen, are they? They simply don’t recognise me!

Then he said: After all, Jesus says Moses wrote of Him in the Pentateuch. But nowhere there does it say anything that would let the people know what the Messiah would be like, so that they could identify Him, does it? Something like: “He will do this or that, He will have this name and look like this.”

He also suggested that the Bible contains errors and we do not need absolute certainty as to the veracity of its content, namely that John made errors in recording the above two statements, as they miss a third option.

This is getting me really worked up, so I look for help here. Thank you!

…the problem is that taking one or a few verses from Scriptures does not allow for a short-cut out of knowing God:

19 For what can be known about God is perfectly plain to them, since God has made it plain to them: 20 ever since the creation of the world, the invisible existence of God and his everlasting power have been clearly seen by the mind’s understanding of created things. And so these people have no excuse: 21 they knew God and yet they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but their arguments became futile and their uncomprehending minds were darkened. 22 While they claimed to be wise, in fact they were growing so stupid 23 that they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an imitation, for the image of a mortal human being, or of birds, or animals, or crawling things. (Romans 1:19-23)

…the relationship that exists is such that the Father, Calls to the Son, Who Saves–both do so through the Holy Spirit:

41 Meanwhile the Jews were complaining to each other about him, because he had said, ‘I am the bread that has come down from heaven.’ 42 They were saying, 'Surely this is Jesus son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know. How can he now say, “I have come down from heaven?” ’ 43 Jesus said in reply to them, 'Stop complaining to each other. 44 'No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: They will all be taught by God; everyone who has listened to the Father, and learnt from him, comes to me. (St. John 6:41-45)

12 I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you to bear now. 13 However, when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking of his own accord, but will say only what he has been told; and he will reveal to you the things to come. 14 He will glorify me, since all he reveals to you will be taken from what is mine. 15 Everything the Father has is mine; that is why I said: all he reveals to you will be taken from what is mine. (St. John 16:12-15)

17 for it is not eating and drinking that make the kingdom of God, but the saving justice, the peace and the joy brought by the Holy Spirit. 18 It is the person who serves Christ in these things that will be approved by God and respected by everyone. (Romans 14:17-18)

…and while it is true that I’ve never met the queen of England and would not give assistance to anyone claiming royal status, I am obliged by a greater Law to offer aid to those in need…

…let’s not forget that it was in response to God’s Call that the three mages (ignorant of Judaism) made it to Jerusalem seeking the new born King of the Jews.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[babs57]

OK. First, it is not true that the Jews had no way of knowing who the Mesaiah would be when He came. The prophets speak plainly about what to look for, and the Jews were looking! Their daughters were all hoping and praying to be the mother of the Mesaiah. (Read Isaiah and the Psalms, for instance - all those “suffering servant songs”, being from the line of David, and Him coming from Bethlehem but being called a Nazorean.) Also, there was the thing about Harod thinking the Mesaiah had come, and fearing He would be greater than him (Harod), ordered the massacre of the innocents. So, its not at all as though no one was looking for Him or didn’t know what to look for.

Now, If the queen calls the concert hall first, and says that the prince is coming and will be with such and such people, and will be wearing such and such a suit, and the prince has the ticket, then the doormen better let him in.

Then, there is also the fact that He had already performed three miracles. People were already starting to talk and murmmur about Him (maybe this is the one we’ve been waiting for!) This latest miracle was right in front of many people, and THEN He has the audacity to make Himself equal to God!! … BUT…

Is 2:14 Yet He shall be a snare, an obstacle and a stumbling stone to both the houses of Isreal, a trap to those who dwell in Jerusalem."

A stumbling stone because they couldn’t accept Him…they couldn’t believe. Even after the miracles, and all the prophesies beginning to come true.

Sad but true. Some people just can’t believe!

 

[stevekehl]

Cutler,
Your post got me a little worked up too.
First let me address the analogies of your group mate. If Prince Harry would never attend a concert without a security detail. Even if the workers didn’t recognize him, the security guards would be evidence to confirm his identity. In the same way, there are evidences to justify Jesus’ identity.
Jesus uses a better illustration when He told the parable of the vineyard owner. (Matt. 21:32, Mark 12:1, Luke 20:9) The owner kept sending servants to collect the rent on the vineyard, but the workers kept killing these servants. The vineyard owner sends his son, thinking surely these men will respect my son as they would respect me, but they kill the son as well. By not recognizing the authority of the son, they refuse to recognize the authority of the vineyard owner.
As for Moses, check out “The Messiah in the Old Testament.” by Walter C. Kaiser Jr.
The accuracy of the Bible is beyond question. There are more ancient manuscripts and more manuscripts closer to the actual events than any other ancient writings.

 

[CutlerB]

OK. First, it is not true that the Jews had no way of knowing who the Mesaiah would be when He came. The prophets speak plainly about what to look for, and the Jews were looking! Their daughters were all hoping and praying to be the mother of the Mesaiah. (Read Isaiah and the Psalms, for instance - all those “suffering servant songs”, being from the line of David, and Him coming from Bethlehem but being called a Nazorean.) Also, there was the thing about Harod thinking the Mesaiah had come, and fearing He would be greater than him (Harod), ordered the massacre of the innocents. So, its not at all as though no one was looking for Him or didn’t know what to look for.

The thing he keeps saying is this: “Jesus isn’t talking about Isaiah or the Psalms. He is referring to Moses, where does Moses say by why criteria one can identify Jesus?”

Then come the possibilities for verse 47:

1. They know who the Messiah will be, and recognise Him.
2. They know who the Messiah is, and willingly reject Him.
3. They do not know who the Messiah will be, and therefore don’t accept Jesus, but are not to blame.

Now, If the queen calls the concert hall first, and says that the prince is coming and will be with such and such people, and will be wearing such and such a suit, and the prince has the ticket, then the doormen better let him in.

I agree, but the guy I am in discussion with keeps insisting that “the Queen calls from Moses”. He wants the reference to Moses, as Jesus specifically says that if the Jews “had believed Moses [they] would have believed [Jesus].” He keeps saying: Well, the Jews DID believe Moses, but Moses just nowhere makes a claim that would obviously apply to Jesus!

In other words: The Queen did call the concert hall and the people believed her. However, the discription is not so accurate as to apply undoubtably to this person who claims to be Prince Harry. After all, many claim to bee him. So the guards are not to blame, because they did believe, but just didn’t recognise due to inadequate discription.

Then, there is also the fact that He had already performed three miracles. People were already starting to talk and murmmur about Him (maybe this is the one we’ve been waiting for!) This latest miracle was right in front of many people, and THEN He has the audacity to make Himself equal to God!! … BUT…

Is 2:14 Yet He shall be a snare, an obstacle and a stumbling stone to both the houses of Isreal, a trap to those who dwell in Jerusalem."

A stumbling stone because they couldn’t accept Him…they couldn’t believe. Even after the miracles, and all the prophesies beginning to come true.

Sad but true. Some people just can’t believe!

I fully agree.

Cutler,
Your post got me a little worked up too.
First let me address the analogies of your group mate. If Prince Harry would never attend a concert without a security detail. Even if the workers didn’t recognize him, the security guards would be evidence to confirm his identity. In the same way, there are evidences to justify Jesus’ identity.
Jesus uses a better illustration when He told the parable of the vineyard owner. (Matt. 21:32, Mark 12:1, Luke 20:9) The owner kept sending servants to collect the rent on the vineyard, but the workers kept killing these servants. The vineyard owner sends his son, thinking surely these men will respect my son as they would respect me, but they kill the son as well. By not recognizing the authority of the son, they refuse to recognize the authority of the vineyard owner.
As for Moses, check out “The Messiah in the Old Testament.” by Walter C. Kaiser Jr.
The accuracy of the Bible is beyond question. There are more ancient manuscripts and more manuscripts closer to the actual events than any other ancient writings.

While I agree, the question at hand here is Moses.

 

[babs57]

Re: Moses see Deut 18:15-19

“A prophet like me will the Lord your God raise up for you from among your own kinsmen; to him shall you listen. This is exactly what you requested from the Lord, your God, at Horeb on the day of assembly, when you said, ‘Let us not again hear the voice of the Lord our God, nor see His face anymore, lest we die.’ And the Lord said to me, 'This was well said. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen, and will put My words into his mouth; he shall tell them all that I command him. If any man will not listen to My words which he speaks in My name, I myself will make them answer for it.”

Point is, they were told to look for Him, they were looking for Him, they must have seen all the signs, wonders, authority (I will put words in his mouth…), prophesies coming true… They couldn’t have NOT recognised him. Even when Moses had just come down from Sinai, after speaking directly to God, Moses had to deal with their cowardliness and their inclination to turn to other explanations and solutions for their plight.

The Jews, hearing Jesus speak of this, would have known exactly what He was talking about. There is no third option. They had everything they needed to believe. After all, thousands DID believe Him.

 

[jcrichton]

The thing he keeps saying is this: “Jesus isn’t talking about Isaiah or the Psalms. He is referring to Moses, where does Moses say by why criteria one can identify Jesus?”

Then come the possibilities for verse 47:

1. They know who the Messiah will be, and recognise Him.
2. They know who the Messiah is, and willingly reject Him.
3. They do not know who the Messiah will be, and therefore don’t accept Jesus, but are not to blame.

I agree, but the guy I am in discussion with keeps insisting that “the Queen calls from Moses”. He wants the reference to Moses, as Jesus specifically says that if the Jews “had believed Moses [they] would have believed [Jesus].” He keeps saying: Well, the Jews DID believe Moses, but Moses just nowhere makes a claim that would obviously apply to Jesus!

In other words: The Queen did call the concert hall and the people believed her. However, the discription is not so accurate as to apply undoubtably to this person who claims to be Prince Harry. After all, many claim to bee him. So the guards are not to blame, because they did believe, but just didn’t recognise due to inadequate discription.

I fully agree.

While I agree, the question at hand here is Moses.

…the reality is that your friend does not want to believe so he is looking for a short-cut to defy God and still remain “safe.”

Here’s what the Word say:

13 'You must be faultless in your relationship with Yahweh your God. 14 For these nations whom you are going to dispossess have listened to soothsayers and mediums, but Yahweh your God does not permit you to do this. From among yourselves, from among your own brothers, 15 Yahweh your God will raise up a prophet like me; you will listen to him. 16 This is exactly what you asked Yahweh your God to do – at Horeb, on the day of the Assembly, when you said, “Never let me hear the voice of Yahweh my God or see this great fire again, or I shall die.” 17 Then Yahweh said to me, 18 “What they have said is well said. From their own brothers I shall raise up a prophet like yourself; 19 I shall put my words into his mouth and he will tell them everything I command him. Anyone who refuses to listen to my words, spoken by him in my name, will have to render an account to me. 20 But the prophet who presumes to say something in my name which I have not commanded him to say, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.” 21 ‘You may be privately wondering, “How are we to tell that a prophecy does not come from Yahweh?”
22 When a prophet speaks in the name of Yahweh and the thing does not happen and the word is not fulfilled, then it has not been said by Yahweh. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. You have nothing to fear from him.’ (Deuteronomy 18:13-22)

…of course, your friend works on the premise that Moses is the sole person that speaks on the Messiah and that everything ended with him–he erroneously believes that there’s no continuation of prophecy in Judaism, Judaism into Christianity (Christ’s founded Church) and the Church into present day; his faith is on what he believes to be Biblical error and we know that unBelievers have a keen and unbaised approach to anything related to Yahweh God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[CutlerB]

…the reality is that your friend does not want to believe so he is looking for a short-cut to defy God and still remain “safe.”

Here’s what the Word say:

…of course, your friend works on the premise that Moses is the sole person that speaks on the Messiah and that everything ended with him–he erroneously believes that there’s no continuation of prophecy in Judaism, Judaism into Christianity (Christ’s founded Church) and the Church into present day; his faith is on what he believes to be Biblical error and we know that unBelievers have a keen and unbaised approach to anything related to Yahweh God!

Maran atha!

Angel

I would agree with you that he doesn’t want to believe. The things he said fit perfectly with that. But still, isn’t it a valid point that if Jesus talks specifically about Moses there should be something?

 

[babs57]

I would agree with you that he doesn’t want to believe. The things he said fit perfectly with that. But still, isn’t it a valid point that if Jesus talks specifically about Moses there should be something?

Yes. AND THERE IS!! DEUT 18:15-19!!!

This is the passage Jesus is referring to. The authority with which He is speaking ("I shall put words into his mouth…) was recognized as a prophetic authority. The miracle He had just performed, being done on the Sabbath, showed that He assumed the authority of God. This is why they wanted to kill Him. (Jn 5:16) The point is they knew the scriptures, they were looking for exactly that which they were seeing, and they rejected it anyway. Just like in the OT.

In the analogy, there would have been no reason for the people at the door not to recognize the prince. And they would have been in big trouble for not doing so.

 

[CutlerB]

Yes. AND THERE IS!! DEUT 18:15-19!!!

This is the passage Jesus is referring to. The authority with which He is speaking ("I shall put words into his mouth…) was recognized as a prophetic authority. The miracle He had just performed, being done on the Sabbath, showed that He assumed the authority of God. This is why they wanted to kill Him. (Jn 5:16) The point is they knew the scriptures, they were looking for exactly that which they were seeing, and they rejected it anyway. Just like in the OT.

In the analogy, there would have been no reason for the people at the door not to recognize the prince. And they would have been in big trouble for not doing so.

The problem I see coming is this: He will say: “But Moses wasn’t writing anything that would fit only Jesus, did he? Anybody could have said something that would claim divine authority!”

Am I correct in saying then, “Yes, but nobody performed multiple miracles in front of their eyes, right?”

 

[babs57]

The problem I see coming is this: He will say: “But Moses wasn’t writing anything that would fit only Jesus, did he? Anybody could have said something that would claim divine authority!”

Am I correct in saying then, “Yes, but nobody performed multiple miracles in front of their eyes, right?”

It would be a correct statement. You can try it.

You are facing the same problem that Jesus did. Don’t be surprised if you don’t get any further with him than Jesus did with the Jews.

 

[CutlerB]

It would be a correct statement. You can try it.

You are facing the same problem that Jesus did. Don’t be surprised if you don’t get any further with him than Jesus did with the Jews.

If it comes up again, I will say it. I won’t get him back onto thy topic as it turned into a discussion and ping-pong between me and him and the rest of the group didn’t participate.

I don’t even know why he turns up in church or at the study, because he says things like “I don’t believe that God exists in the common definition. Existence is difficult to define anyway. The Bible is not inerrant.”

 

[jcrichton]

I would agree with you that he doesn’t want to believe. The things he said fit perfectly with that. But still, isn’t it a valid point that if Jesus talks specifically about Moses there should be something?

…I’ve already offered what Moses claimed and was written; Scriptures do not contain everything about everything as though the Writings were a super unabridged chronicle.

The prophecy of the Messiah has its origin on Genesis 3:15 and the subsequent revelations continue to point to Jesus… as complementary Writing we find Apocalypse 12 expanding on Genesis 3:15 and setting the course of God’s Salvific Plan in motion… the prophecies and revelations both engolf and point to Christ… your friend wants a cheat-sheet that would spell out all he needs to do to refrain from humble obedience to God while assuring his Salvation in spite of God’s Word…

Jesus is the Only Prophet that brought every prophecy into fulfillment and Whose Word Remained Exactly as the Father had Conveyed through Moses: He Spoke, Fulfilled, and Brought into Existence God’s Word!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The problem I see coming is this: He will say: “But Moses wasn’t writing anything that would fit only Jesus, did he? Anybody could have said something that would claim divine authority!”

Am I correct in saying then, “Yes, but nobody performed multiple miracles in front of their eyes, right?”

…but it is not just the miracles… it is the fulfillment of Scriptures… not one single prophet before Jesus ever came as the Son of God, as the Word Incarnate, as the Full Authority of God, as the Visible Image of God, as the Creator, as the Lamb of God, as the New Covenant, as the King of king, as the Lord of lords… not a single person was ever claimed by God as His Son, nor has God ever Called anyone else God nor placed anyone, other than Jesus, at His Right Hand or Commanded His servants to worship Him…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

If it comes up again, I will say it. I won’t get him back onto thy topic as it turned into a discussion and ping-pong between me and him and the rest of the group didn’t participate.

I don’t even know why he turns up in church or at the study, because he says things like “I don’t believe that God exists in the common definition. Existence is difficult to define anyway. The Bible is not inerrant.”

…ever heard about misery? …it’s been my experience that those who reject Yahweh God are not content with their claim that God does not exist–they want the rest of the world to denounce God as well; it has been the historical course taken by all secularists: rid the world of God by ridding God out of Believers!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[CutlerB]

…ever heard about misery? …it’s been my experience that those who reject Yahweh God are not content with their claim that God does not exist–they want the rest of the world to denounce God as well; it has been the historical course taken by all secularists: rid the world of God by ridding God out of Believers!

Maran atha!

Angel

I heard a quote once that went something like this: “Scientists tend to complicate things to such an extent that they no longer understand what is plain obvious to the average person.” The guy I talked to is a mathematician.

 

[jcrichton]

I heard a quote once that went something like this: “Scientists tend to complicate things to such an extent that they no longer understand what is plain obvious to the average person.” The guy I talked to is a mathematician.

'nough said!



Maran atha!

Angel