Who does the name Jesus Christ denote?

[VeritasSeeker]

Who/what do we denote by the name Jesus Christ/Jesus of Nazareth?

1. By the name Jesus Christ do we denote *just *the human nature? If so, then it would be wrong to say that Jesus Christ is eternal.
2. By the name Jesus Christ do we denote just the divine nature? If so, then we cannot be correct in saying that Jesus Christ is fully man.
3. By the name Jesus Christ do we denote the hypostatic union wherein the human and divine natures are both exemplified? But then how is Jesus Christ said to be a person? Is the hypostatic union a person or just the relation of the two natures?If the former, then the person would subsist in the 2nd person of the Trinity which is ridiculous.
4. By the name Jesus Christ do we denote the 2nd person of the Trinity, God the Son; That is, is God the Son equivalent to Jesus Christ? If so, then Jesus is an eternal person who always existed(containing the full divine essence), and cannot be said to have come into existence via the incarnation.

My intuition is to say that the 4th statement is what we mean when we say Jesus, is this correct?

Thanks in advance!

 

[MarcusAndreas]

I only use the name Jesus Christ to refer to the incarnate Logos.

 

[Usagi]

Jesus is a divine Person (specifically the Second Person of the Trinity) who possesses both the full Divine nature (eternally) and a unique human nature (a body and soul created at His conception and united inextricably to His Divine nature).

“Jesus” is (the English equivalent via Latin and Greek of) the name His adoptive human father was told to give him. “Christ” signifies that He is the long-awaited Jewish Messiah. So the name in both cases refers specifically to Him as He exists post-Incarnation.

I’d actually say your #3 is closest to the truth. What leads you to find it ridiculous?

Usagi

 

[ANNE_2]

Since you are Catholic, check out the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”. There is a section starting on page 108 relating to your question. The meaning of the name Jesus, and the meaning of the word Christ.
Also check the glossary on page 884.

 

[Julian0404]

The name was given by the messengar, Gabriel the Archangle and it translates to “GOD among us”. It denotes what is says.

 

[VeritasSeeker]

I only use the name Jesus Christ to refer to the incarnate Logos.

So that means that you use the name Jesus only to refer to the 2nd person of the Trinity, i.e God the Son after the incarnation. So on your view it would be wrong to say that Jesus exists eternally, because his incarnation was not from eternity but at a specific time.

Jesus is a divine Person (specifically the Second Person of the Trinity) who possesses both the full Divine nature (eternally) and a unique human nature (a body and soul created at His conception and united inextricably to His Divine nature).

“Jesus” is (the English equivalent via Latin and Greek of) the name His adoptive human father was told to give him. “Christ” signifies that He is the long-awaited Jewish Messiah. So the name in both cases refers specifically to Him as He exists post-Incarnation.

I’d actually say your #3 is closest to the truth. What leads you to find it ridiculous?

Usagi

So your saying that Jesus denotes the second person of the Trinity who posses both the Divine(eternally) and human nature. You note that this only makes sense *post-*incarnation(because pre-incarnation there was no human nature). Therefore you would have us believe that Jesus is not eternal, because the Hypostatic union did not exist from eternity but was formed by virtue of God the Son taking on a human nature. I said it is ridiculous to think that the hypostatic union is a person and that is what is denoted by Jesus because that would make God the Son(the 2nd person of the Trinity) different from Jesus---- the person of the hypostatic union. The former would exist from eternity while the latter would exist post-incarnation.

Since you are Catholic, check out the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”. There is a section starting on page 108 relating to your question. The meaning of the name Jesus, and the meaning of the word Christ.
Also check the glossary on page 884.

Thank you, I took a look at it, but i have not found an answer as of yet.

The name was given by the messengar, Gabriel the Archangle and it translates to “GOD among us”. It denotes what is says.

Yes, I am aware that the name Jesus means that God saves but that is not the issue at hand. I am not asking what the name Jesus denotes but what Jesus denotes. For example, the name Chernobyl nominally denotes the term "wormwood’ but it actually denotes a nuclear power plant in Ukraine. Pardon the misleading title.

 

[Usagi]

So your saying that Jesus denotes the second person of the Trinity who posses both the Divine(eternally) and human nature. You note that this only makes sense *post-*incarnation(because pre-incarnation there was no human nature). Therefore you would have us believe that Jesus is not eternal, because the Hypostatic union did not exist from eternity but was formed by virtue of God the Son taking on a human nature. I said it is ridiculous to think that the hypostatic union is a person and that is what is denoted by Jesus because that would make God the Son(the 2nd person of the Trinity) different from Jesus---- the person of the hypostatic union. The former would exist from eternity while the latter would exist post-incarnation.

You are correct. Catholic teaching is clear that Jesus is only one Person, and has always been the same Person (that which is the second Person of the Trinity). Taking on a human nature in the Incarnation did not add an additional Person nor cause a change in His Person. Yet since the Incarnation, the human and divine natures are so inextricably united that what is said of either one can be said of the whole Person. That is how we can call Mary the God-bearer and affirm that God the Son gave His life for us on the cross, even though as God He pre-existed Mary and could not cease to be.

It still seems to me, though, that “Jesus” refers especially to the Incarnate Son, since that was the name He was given as a human. Thus, we can say “Jesus existed eternally” in the sense that the Person known by that name existed eternally, but as far as we know the name “Jesus” only began to be used at the beginning of His human life. I don’t think there’s an exact rule, but it seems more common to use “Word” or “Son” to refer to the same Person in His pre-incarnate state. On the other hand, the Creed refers to “one Lord, Jesus Christ” Who is both “eternally begotten of the Father” and the One Who “became man.” So you could go either way, I guess.

Usagi

 

[joplee]

So your saying that Jesus denotes the second person of the Trinity who posses both the Divine(eternally) and human nature. You note that this only makes sense *post-*incarnation(because pre-incarnation there was no human nature). I said it is ridiculous to think that the hypostatic union is a person and that is what is denoted by Jesus because that would make God the Son(the 2nd person of the Trinity) different from Jesus---- the person of the hypostatic union. The former would exist from eternity while the latter would exist post-incarnation.

As John states so succinctly in his first chapter of his Gospel:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Divine Person of of Jesus Christ existed in the beginning. His Human Nature did not exist until the Incarnation. At the Incarnation it is the Hypostatic Union of these two and we believe that Jesus is fully God and fully Man. Christ as God has existed from the beginning. But Christ as Man existed only from the Incarnation. What a great mystery!

1. By the name Jesus Christ do we denote the 2nd person of the Trinity, God the Son; That is, is God the Son equivalent to Jesus Christ? If so, then Jesus is an eternal person who always existed(containing the full divine essence), and cannot be said to have come into existence via the incarnation.

Jesus Divine Person did not come into existence at the Incarnation; however His human nature did. When we receive the Eucharist, we receive the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ. We don’t just receive his Divinity. That is the Hypostatic Union of Christ and it will always be that way.

 

[CEM5]

The name was given by the messengar, Gabriel the Archangle and it translates to “GOD among us”. It denotes what is says.

Hi Julian,

Actually, “God among us” is from the name “Emmanuel”. Jesus is from the Hebrew Yeshua (Joshua), meaning “God’s salvation”.

Christ is the Greek form = Messiah, meaning “the anointed one”.

blessings,

 

[CEM5]

Who/what do we denote by the name Jesus Christ/Jesus of Nazareth?

1. By the name Jesus Christ do we denote *just *the human nature? If so, then it would be wrong to say that Jesus Christ is eternal.
2. By the name Jesus Christ do we denote just the divine nature? If so, then we cannot be correct in saying that Jesus Christ is fully man.
3. By the name Jesus Christ do we denote the hypostatic union wherein the human and divine natures are both exemplified? But then how is Jesus Christ said to be a person? Is the hypostatic union a person or just the relation of the two natures?If the former, then the person would subsist in the 2nd person of the Trinity which is ridiculous.
4. By the name Jesus Christ do we denote the 2nd person of the Trinity, God the Son; That is, is God the Son equivalent to Jesus Christ? If so, then Jesus is an eternal person who always existed(containing the full divine essence), and cannot be said to have come into existence via the incarnation.

My intuition is to say that the 4th statement is what we mean when we say Jesus, is this correct?

Thanks in advance!

God is Three Persons in One divine Being: Trinity.

The Creator (Father)
The Word (Son)
The Sanctifier (Holy Spirit)

You cannot separate them nor think of God as three separate entities. God is ONE, and therefore, where the Father is, you find the Son and Holy Spirit. Where the Son is, you will find the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit is, you will find the Father and the Son.

When God took on human flesh (known as the Incarnation), in the form of Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, it did not create a separate entity apart from the Trinity.

Jesus retained His Divinity as God in the second Person of the Trinity, yet at the same time, He became fully human with a human nature and a human soul.

I like to use the visual analogy of the three leaf clover: the plant is one, yet has three leaves. The stem that connects the plant to the earth, is still part of the clover and not separate. So, using this visual, the three leaves are like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the stem is the human body of Christ, the bridge between heaven and earth: man and God. He was never separate from the Trinity.

blessings,
CEM

 

[rcjones]

God is Three Persons in One divine Being: Trinity.

The Creator (Father)
The Word (Son)
The Sanctifier (Holy Spirit)

You cannot separate them nor think of God as three separate entities. God is ONE, and therefore, where the Father is, you find the Son and Holy Spirit. Where the Son is, you will find the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit is, you will find the Father and the Son.

When God took on human flesh (known as the Incarnation), in the form of Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, it did not create a separate entity apart from the Trinity.

Jesus retained His Divinity as God in the second Person of the Trinity, yet at the same time, He became fully human with a human nature and a human soul.

I like to use the visual analogy of the three leaf clover: the plant is one, yet has three leaves. The stem that connects the plant to the earth, is still part of the clover and not separate. So, using this visual, the three leaves are like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the stem is the human body of Christ, the bridge between heaven and earth: man and God. He was never separate from the Trinity.

blessings,
CEM

I think you are correct with one exception.

The rock was split, the water was parted, the veil was torn, the tablets were separated…all depicting Christ on the cross as the Father and the Holy Spirit had left him.

The sacrifices that are torn prefigure the same thing, yet his body was never torn. The real horror of the cross is that God himself was torn.

From the story of Eli’s sons we learn it was the Holy Ghost who wielded the three prong Word of God against Christ in his tribulation. Though Jesus was the fullness of God in human form, God was torn apart.

Jesus died desolate and alone as prophesied by every barren woman, by the firmament, and by every drought in the Bible.

It is difficult to comprehend. We can only marvel.

 

[edowitz1]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

[CEM5]

I think you are correct with one exception.

The rock was split, the water was parted, the veil was torn, the tablets were separated…all depicting Christ on the cross as the Father and the Holy Spirit had left him.

The sacrifices that are torn prefigure the same thing, yet his body was never torn. The real horror of the cross is that God himself was torn.

From the story of Eli’s sons we learn it was the Holy Ghost who wielded the three prong Word of God against Christ in his tribulation. Though Jesus was the fullness of God in human form, God was torn apart.

Jesus died desolate and alone as prophesied by every barren woman, by the firmament, and by every drought in the Bible.

It is difficult to comprehend. We can only marvel.

Hi rcjones,

God was never torn, and Jesus was not abandoned nor alone. The Father and Holy Spirit were always with Jesus, as were Mary, Jesus’ mother from the moment of His birth to the moment of His physical death.

Jesus’ cry upon the cross “My God, my God why have you abandoned (or forsaken as some translations depict) me” were the opening words of the Pslam 22, and it is called the Prayer of the victorious man.

When you read the whole Psalm 22, it shows the triumph not a defeat and this is what Jesus was pointing out to those around him. In ancient times, the Bible was not separated into chapters and verses and the Jews memorized the Psalms, so just by stating the opening lines, would bring to mind the rest of the Psalm quoted.

The temple viel was torn because sinful man is no longer separated from God. Jesus dying for us redeemed humans and closed the rift we caused that separated us from the presence of God. The temple veil was a divider between God’s holy presence – the Holy of holies – and sinful mans.

“Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body …let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith.” (Hebrews 10:19-22)

The Holy of holies was a representation of heaven, and we now have access to heaven because of Christ redeeming us through His sacrificial death on the Cross.

Again, with the rocks being split upon the death of Christ, and releasing the bodies in tombs, this too, was showing that Christ triumphed over death, and that death does not separate us from God. All souls were waiting for Christ’s saving grace, since NO ONE was allowed into heaven until Christ entered first to open the gates of heaven. He is the firstfruits, and the bridge between man and God. Souls “slept” in the grave until they were released and allowed into heaven. (Sheol is the place that the righteous and unrighteus souls dwelled until Christ opened the gates of heaven).

God bless

 

[rcjones]

The prayer indicates an eventual victory, not a continuing presence of the Father.

Real death is not physical, it is spiritual. If you deny that he died spiritually, then he cannot save us spiritually.

 

[CEM5]

The prayer indicates an eventual victory, not a continuing presence of the Father.

Real death is not physical, it is spiritual. If you deny that he died spiritually, then he cannot save us spiritually.

Hi rcjones,

Because God is one, and cannot be separated, the Father is always with the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Our spirits/souls are eternal and cannot, nor will they, ever die. The only part of Jesus that died was the physical, corporeal body of which all humans will experience. Our spirit/soul does not die - it gets judged and then we either go to heaven (many to that state of purgatory first) or to hell.

Jesus was fully human yet still fully divine as the second person of the Trinity. As the “son of man” his body experienced death, but \His spirit/soul did not. This is the part of Him that went down to the spirits in prison and freed them (epistle of Peter).

Because God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, = ONE, God cannot be separated. Therefore, God the Father and Holy Spirit were always with Jesus, (the Word, the Son).

blessings,
CEM

 

[VeritasSeeker]

You are correct. Catholic teaching is clear that Jesus is only one Person, and has always been the same Person (that which is the second Person of the Trinity). Taking on a human nature in the Incarnation did not add an additional Person nor cause a change in His Person. Yet since the Incarnation, the human and divine natures are so inextricably united that what is said of either one can be said of the whole Person. That is how we can call Mary the God-bearer and affirm that God the Son gave His life for us on the cross, even though as God He pre-existed Mary and could not cease to be.

It still seems to me, though, that “Jesus” refers especially to the Incarnate Son, since that was the name He was given as a human. Thus, we can say “Jesus existed eternally” in the sense that the Person known by that name existed eternally, but as far as we know the name “Jesus” only began to be used at the beginning of His human life. I don’t think there’s an exact rule, but it seems more common to use “Word” or “Son” to refer to the same Person in His pre-incarnate state. On the other hand, the Creed refers to “one Lord, Jesus Christ” Who is both “eternally begotten of the Father” and the One Who “became man.” So you could go either way, I guess.

Usagi

As John states so succinctly in his first chapter of his Gospel:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Divine Person of of Jesus Christ existed in the beginning. His Human Nature did not exist until the Incarnation. At the Incarnation it is the Hypostatic Union of these two and we believe that Jesus is fully God and fully Man. Christ as God has existed from the beginning. But Christ as Man existed only from the Incarnation. What a great mystery!
Jesus Divine Person did not come into existence at the Incarnation; however His human nature did. When we receive the Eucharist, we receive the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ. We don’t just receive his Divinity. That is the Hypostatic Union of Christ and it will always be that way.

I am still not so sure on what “Jesus” denotes. I agree with you that it seems to refer to the incarnate Son. However, if we say that the person known by that name existed eternally then we are saying that God the Son is Jesus. So we would have to say Jesus is eternal and he was not known as Jesus until the person took on a human nature in addition to his divine nature(the hypostatic union).

The ambiguities remain. If you say that “The Divine Person of of Jesus Christ existed in the beginning.” then you are accepting that by Jesus we denote God the Son and that Jesus can rightly be said to be eternal.

That being said, we now have realized that Jesus refers to a person(God the Son). So the question can be deduced as thus: Does Jesus refer only to the incarnate word or the pre-incarnate word? That is, does Jesus refer to the 2nd person of the Trinity post-incarnation(qua the hypostatic union) or pre-incarnation? Or could the disjunction be taken in the inclusive sense? By that i mean can we say that the name Jesus was first used post-incarnation and from then on refers to the pre-incarnate and post-incarnate person?