Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

[exiled]

exiled;4717830:

Judas did.

The Whitmers and others left, not because of the plates, but because they had problems with Joseph. Or Joseph had problems with them.

Jesus was not a heavenly apparition. By the time Judas left Jesus still appeared (by all human senses) just a man. Yes, He had performed miracles, but I think it was still a leap of faith before the Resurrection to believe that He was God. Also, Judas saw by that time that the tide was not going in Jesus’ favor, making things seem far more “human” than that of heaven.

Knowing nothing about Smith myself, if these people witnessed that he was divinely ordained to restore the true church, how could the reject his authority at all?

 

[Jerusha]

I think that Rigdon was more a fraud than JS. JS was Rigdon’s schill, and was driven crazy by the fraud perpetuated on him by Rigdon.

And Spalding was much more of a prophet than JS could ever be.

 

[dianaiad]

I just ran across this remarkable story about the plates:
“The plates were secreted about three miles from home…Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home.”

After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house." (Lucy Mack Smith, mother of Joseph Smith, in Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, 1853, pp. 104-105; Comp. reprinted edition by Bookcraft Publishers in 1956 under the title History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, pp. 107- 108) Emphasis added.

The weight of the plates makes the story incredible. The heavenly messenger told Joseph Smith that plates were of gold. Joseph described the plates as being 6 inches wide, 8 inches long, and something near 6 inches in thickness. Gold has certain interesting properties. It is a very heavy metal, its specific gravity being 19.3. It is very soft and malleable. Plates made of gold would therefore pack down very tightly when stacked. A little figuring will reveal to the reader that the plates weighed 200.81 pounds or thereabouts!

Wow, even at 100lbs quite a feat to knock two men down and still carry on even after receiving “a heavy blow” from a gun. Funny how in an untraveled area of the forest there just happend to be three robbers whom our hero dispatched with a wave of his hand.

Well, let’s see: here’s a kid who was tall, very strong, a hard worker; he was for all his life rather famous for being able to beat others at a game called ‘pulling sticks,’ which involved two people sitting on the ground, face to face, with their feet braced against the feet of their opponent. They would each hold on to a stick, or pole, and try to pull the other up and over his head; a sort of tug of war. It involved a great deal of upper and lower body strength. Joseph Smith Jr. was athletic and strong; the idea that he could, when attacked, defeat someone isn’t all that far fetched.

As well, even the antis agree that the folks around him suspected that he had access to gold; it is not exactly beyond believe that he was followed that day. In fact, that happened to him several times, and the folks that did the ‘lying in wait’ were not a bit shy about writing down their experiences, and justifying their waylaying ways.

So here we have three yahoos who followed Joseph for the purpose of taking from him whatever it is he found. He got away from them. Hardly miraculous–and hardly unlikely.

About the weight? Well, lessee; first, you are assuming that they were made of 24 caret gold, and that doesn’t necessarily follow. However, your OTHER claim, that they would 'pack down very tightly" doesn’t fly either, as has been shown by that other set of side bound 24 caret gold plates made by the Etruscans, which shows that heavily inscribed gold simply doesn’t weigh as much as you would like it to weigh.

If it were a gold alloy that would hold the records better than pure gold would, it would be far lighter–to the tune of 50 to 80 pounds. Now any mother can tote that much (and does, frequently) for quite awhile, and can even do so at a dead run if the adrenaline is running. Modern soldiers pack that much and more–100 to 150 pounds–and are expected to run miles with it—afraid only of their drill sergeants.

So; were the plates likely heavy? Well, yeah. However, that they were 200 pounds? Not so much. Using those existing Etruscan plates as a base for the math, for instance, even at 24 caret gold we don’t get more than 100 pounds, tops.

Sorry.

I’m 5’8", female and not a bit athletic; however, I picked up my 100 pound niece, threw her over my shoulder and ran like crazy to get out of the house when a fire broke out in my back yard. True, I didn’t run very far, but it was a good block and a half, and it didn’t faze me in the slightest.

If I can do that, are you really going to tell me that Joseph Smith Jr., a young, fit, 6’2" man couldn’t carry a lesser weight and fend off attackers coming at him one at a time, when he was running on adrenaline and faith?

C’mon.

The story is plausible and repeatable; if it can be done (and it can) then insisting that it is false because it can’t be done is, well…a little silly, isn’t it?

 

[ricko]

The story is plausible and repeatable; if it can be done (and it can) then insisting that it is false because it can’t be done is, well…a little silly, isn’t it?

Well, yes I would call the story silly and implausible. Walking three miles with a 100lb weight, being struck “a heavy blow” with a gun, running another mile being attacked again and again besting the robber and running still to meet up with another bloke who he bested again. Sounds very implausible.

 

[dianaiad]

Well, yes I would call the story silly and implausible. Walking three miles with a 100lb weight, being struck “a heavy blow” with a gun, running another mile being attacked again and again besting the robber and running still to meet up with another bloke who he bested again. Sounds very implausible.

Yet people do very similar things all the time nowadays, and they do it for fun.

Iron man competitions.
Military training.

…and that’s without being afraid for their lives. So you need to ask yourself why you find it silly and implausible; is it because it IS so—or because you don’t want to think so?

Remember, admitting that it isn’t an impossibility–and even not all that implausible a story–doesn’t prove that it is TRUE.

 

[ricko]

I have never been in an Iron Man competition but I have had military training. Being in excellent condition I can tell you that running a 6min mile leaves you in no condition other than to stop and catch your breath. Running a 6min mile carrying a 100lbs, well I can say that I have never seen that done. As to your statement that the military men carry 100lbs and more and are expected to RUN miles with it is not true. We can walk miles with a 100lbs but never run. Carrying that much of a load you can only sprint for a short distance.

 

[dianaiad]

I have never been in an Iron Man competition but I have had military training. Being in excellent condition I can tell you that running a 6min mile leaves you in no condition other than to stop and catch your breath. Running a 6min mile carrying a 100lbs, well I can say that I have never seen that done. As to your statement that the military men carry 100lbs and more and are expected to RUN miles with it is not true. We can walk miles with a 100lbs but never run. Carrying that much of a load you can only sprint for a short distance.

And who says he ran it in six minutes? Joseph never claimed that; you guys keep adding to the legend so that you can knock the strawmen down.

Well, fine–you’ve never seen someone run a 6 min. mile with a hundred pounds.

Isn’t it a good thing, then, that neither Joseph nor his mother claimed that he did? In fact, neither one of them claimed that he ran a full mile. the only increment I see mentioned here is three miles walking, then he ran after being attacked once. about half a mile later he was attacked again, and he ran again. Then before he reached home he was attacked again (no mention of running) and then when he reached home, he found out that he had dislocated his thumb, and he was out of breath.

Huh.

Well, if you can find anything in there that mentions him running a mile without stopping, much less running one in six minutes, I’ll be durned if I know how.

I guess that settles that.

 

[pnewton]

They are where they were. No we can’t, and probably, if we had them.

How about asking those same questions regarding the tablets upon which the ten commandments were written?

The Ten Commandments were written at least 3500 years ago on stone; these plates on gold, a150 years ago. I can show where the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution are, as they are important document for this nation. Are these plates less important to Mormons? This supposed next chapter of revealed truth from Jesus is counter everything that God has done throughout history. Jesus’ miracles were witnessed by thousands. The blind could see, the lame walk. The dead were raised. His own resurrection was witnessed by thousands after he died during his crucifiction. Yet with Joseph Smith revelation came veiled in secrecy. The witnesses to Jesus willingly gave their lives to spread the gospel. For Mormons, when the going got a little tough, they packed up and fled rather than die as a witness to the truth. Why? Because there was no truth that they were willing to die for as witnesses.

Show us the tablets.

 

[dianaiad]

The Ten Commandments were written at least 3500 years ago on stone; these plates on gold, a150 years ago.

And God couldn’t keep them around for proof? (shrug) Show me the tablets upon which the ten commandments were written. We have other engravings from the same period, most certainly…and according to the scriptures, they were well taken care of for quite awhile. So…where are they?

I can show where the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution are, as they are important document for this nation. Are these plates less important to Mormons? This supposed next chapter of revealed truth from Jesus is counter everything that God has done throughout history. Jesus’ miracles were witnessed by thousands. The blind could see, the lame walk. The dead were raised. His own resurrection was witnessed by thousands after he died during his crucifiction. …

THOUSANDS???

You must be reading a far different version of the NT than I have; because according to that, pretty much nobody saw His resurrection. A bunch of people saw His ascension, but even then ‘thousands’ is pushing it.

A lot.

Unless of course you are talking about the Book of Mormon account of His visit to THOSE folks. Then you can count in the thousands, perhaps…

Yet with Joseph Smith revelation came veiled in secrecy. The witnesses to Jesus willingly gave their lives to spread the gospel. For Mormons, when the going got a little tough, they packed up and fled rather than die as a witness to the truth. Why? Because there was no truth that they were willing to die for as witnesses.

You have got to be kidding me.

He’s kidding me, right?

But OK, I’ll go along with it…The Ten commandments was given in secrecy; only Moses was there to receive them, and before that, the Israelites weren’t willing to stay in slavery and suffer for their religion; at the very first opportunity they packed up and ran for forty years rather than stay put and die for their beliefs.

(shaking head)

You really think that a blood bath in Missouri as a result of the Extermination Order was preferable to a move to the Salt Lake Valley?

Show us the tablets.

God has them.

Show us the tablets upon which the ten commandments are written.

 

[pnewton]

Show me the tablets upon which the ten commandments were written. …The Ten commandments was given in secrecy; …tablets upon which the ten commandments are written.

What is your obsession with the Ten Commandments. Is that the only response they teach you in dealing with Christians? Again, thousands of years vs. a century and a half. We actually have a fairly detailed history of what happened to them until they was stolen. They lasted far longer than theses alleged gold tablets.

I do not know why you are even posting a defense. The point has been made that these little secret plates of gold exist, but no one can see them. When I see the plates, I will consider what they say.

 

[dianaiad]

What is your obsession with the Ten Commandments. Is that the only response they teach you in dealing with Christians? Again, thousands of years vs. a century and a half. We actually have a fairly detailed history of what happened to them until they was stolen. They lasted far longer than theses alleged gold tablets.

What is your obsession with the golden plates? The point is, you don’t believe in the Ten Commandments because you have seen or touched them. You believe in them because you have a history that tells you of them; they are written about in a book that you accept as scripture. We have no, repeat, NO, independent verification of the existence of them outside the OT.

None.

Zip.

Nada.

yet you believe.

At the same time, we have eyewitness accounts from men who did see and touch the BOM plates, and you do not believe. My point is that neither set of documents can be proven empirically… and if you accept the one set as ‘real’ without that empirical proof, then you cannot demand such proof for the other. You must use other means to decide that they never existed.

I do not know why you are even posting a defense. The point has been made that these little secret plates of gold exist, but no one can see them. When I see the plates, I will consider what they say.

I am posting a defense because I happen to believe that a: they existed and b:what was written upon them is very valuable.

…and I’m simply pointing out that you are using a double standard when you accept the Ten Commandments as having been written upon stone and given to Moses—and insist that the golden plates must be produced before you will so much as look at what was claimed to have been written upon them.

 

[MelanieAnne]

All of this Mormon stuff was already addressed in the scriptures we already have. Scriptures we have had for nearly 2000 years. If someone is interested in the chapter and verse, feel free to send a PM, but it has been quoted routinely in this forum.

In the meantime, Jesus, through Paul, left the last instruction about this sort of thing. We have been told, in scripture, that those faiths that purport to come starting with visits from an “angel” (a description that fits both Mormonism and Islam long before either were even THOUGHT OF) should be disregarded.

The Holy Spirit, through Saint Paul the Apostle, has already told us that both Mormonism and Islam are “anathema”.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What is your obsession with the golden plates? The point is, you don’t believe in the Ten Commandments because you have seen or touched them. You believe in them because you have a history that tells you of them; they are written about in a book that you accept as scripture. We have no, repeat, NO, independent verification of the existence of them outside the OT.

None.

Zip.

Nada.

yet you believe.

At the same time, we have eyewitness accounts from men who did see and touch the BOM plates, and you do not believe. My point is that neither set of documents can be proven empirically… and if you accept the one set as ‘real’ without that empirical proof, then you cannot demand such proof for the other. You must use other means to decide that they never existed.

I am posting a defense because I happen to believe that a: they existed and b:what was written upon them is very valuable.

…and I’m simply pointing out that you are using a double standard when you accept the Ten Commandments as having been written upon stone and given to Moses—and insist that the golden plates must be produced before you will so much as look at what was claimed to have been written upon them.

Smith was a treasure hunter, his story of gold plates aligns well to his magic rock and buried treasure sort of lifestyle.

Who the person is and their character matters.

And this logic you have going, that we should believe something because it just might be true. Well hell Diana, let’s start a few new threads about alien abductions. Out of body experiences, and treasure hunting with seer stones. Those might be true too!

 

[pnewton]

…and I’m simply pointing out that you are using a double standard when you accept the Ten Commandments as having been written upon stone and given to Moses—and insist that the golden plates must be produced before you will so much as look at what was claimed to have been written upon them.

Your opinion that I am using a double standard is irrelevant. If you do not know the difference between ancient history and modern history, and the artifacts thereof, then perhaps that explains why you buy into Mormonism so easily.

 

[pnewton]

… let’s start a few new threads about alien abductions.

There are more eyewitnesses to alien abductions that these mythical plates. Perhaps we could start a list of things that have more evidence: yeti, loch ness monster, aliens, ghosts, NCAA “National” football champion…

 

[dianaiad]

Smith was a treasure hunter, his story of gold plates aligns well to his magic rock and buried treasure sort of lifestyle.

Who the person is and their character matters.

And this logic you have going, that we should believe something because it just might be true. Well hell Diana, let’s start a few new threads about alien abductions. Out of body experiences, and treasure hunting with seer stones. Those might be true too!

Rebecca, I did NOT say that 'we should believe something because it just might be true." I SAID that if you consider two things that are similar,(for instance, religious engravings upon stone tablets compared to religious engravings upon golden plates) then you are using a double standard if you insist upon different levels or types of proof for one than you do the other.

That means you need to use a different method to decide truth, and you have to use the same method for both.

As well, I would appreciate it if you would, when you make these sweeping charges and condemnations, actually provide some proof of your own.

The problem with sweeping generalities like yours is that whoever you are talking at has only three choices, and none of them are useful: I could defend as globally as you attack, and get drawn into an endless search to prove a negative; I could ignore you and leave you (and those who agree with you) with the smug feeling of 'she couldn’t answer THAT one, could she!" sort of victory; or I can, as I choose to do now, remind you that such generalities are considered fallacies for a reason, and insist that the next time you make one, you provide specifics and evidence so that there is something tangible to discuss/defend.

 

[excaliber]

Question…
Mormons go on a 2 year ministry.
This is a nice idea, however is it not true that the individual must sponsor themselves?
Is it not true that the individual must pay a large sum of money to do this?

I was told they do.
Why dose the mormon church not take care of them?

Jehovah’s witnesses also sponsore there own ministry.

The Catholic church cares for priests and religious. Why dose the mormon church not?

 

[ricko]

We have many writers about Jesus Christ, in the NT as eyewitness to his existence and miracles and His predicated coming in the OT. When Jesus finally did come he taught from the OT. At no time did he say that anything in the OT was untrue. So we have the backing of Jesus that the OT including the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments is to be believed.

 

[dianaiad]

Question…
Mormons go on a 2 year ministry.
This is a nice idea, however is it not true that the individual must sponsor themselves?

Yes. However, if for some reason the family can’t pay the freight, the ward will do it.

Is it not true that the individual must pay a large sum of money to do this?

That depends on the mission. For instance, with mine the church paid the tickets to and from, and my family and I paid my monthly expenses. I was in England at the time; it ran about $45 per week. I lived cheap.

I was told they do.
Why dose the mormon church not take care of them?

Jehovah’s witnesses also sponsore there own ministry.

The Catholic church cares for priests and religious. Why dose the mormon church not?

We don’t have a paid ministry at all, until it gets pretty high up in the organization, and even then it’s not much; a ‘stipend…’ that many of the ‘general authorities’ do not take.

We aren’t in this for the money, y’see. None of us are.

Come to think of it, it’s not so odd an idea; Jesus didn’t pay His apostles anything, either.

 

[dianaiad]

We have many writers about Jesus Christ, in the NT as eyewitness to his existence and miracles and His predicated coming in the OT. When Jesus finally did come he taught from the OT. At no time did he say that anything in the OT was untrue. So we have the backing of Jesus that the OT including the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments is to be believed.

So in essence…you believe that the OT is true because the bible says so?

Please forgive me for being the devil’s advocate here, but…that’s considered the defining example of circular reasoning.

But…put it like this; if you consider the existance of the bible to be the proof of its truth, then the fact that the BoM exists is proof of its truth, using the same standards.

I don’t think you want to go there, do you?